Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Now there is a suggestion I can hang my hat on.Randy >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: "MARK BOSTICK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >CC: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,"Meteorite List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group >Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 03:34:44 + > >Speaking of Cat Mountain again, again...I forgot one more name for the new >group. > >Arnoldnolite ...establishing the HEAD Group > > >JD > > Dave wrote: > > > > Perhaps just as a slightly "cleaner" version, might using > > "HED-group peridotite" rather than "HED-clan peridotite" be > > a bit better? > > > > > > From my understanding you would say clan. Like eucrites are a clan, and within > > eucrites you have several groups or different types of eucrites, such as > > Polymict Eucrite or Unbrecciated Eucrite. Given a few more finds (or more > > study?), the different Peridotites would receive groups names. It should be > > noted that nobody calls eucrites, "HED-group eucrites", so would not the name, > > if decided upon, just be "Peridotite", or should the HED-group part be carried > > to not confuse people with an earth peridot? > > > > Personally, I still like the thought of using historical names for clans, and > > then the more scientific words added to define the groups. I do however see > > logic in using names that are easy to recognize for the average geologist. > > > > Mark Bostick > > www.MeteoriteArticles.com > > > >__ >Meteorite-list mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Speaking of Cat Mountain again, again...I forgot one more name for the new group. Arnoldnolite ...establishing the HEAD Group JD > Dave wrote: > > Perhaps just as a slightly "cleaner" version, might using > "HED-group peridotite" rather than "HED-clan peridotite" be > a bit better? > > > From my understanding you would say clan. Like eucrites are a clan, and within > eucrites you have several groups or different types of eucrites, such as > Polymict Eucrite or Unbrecciated Eucrite. Given a few more finds (or more > study?), the different Peridotites would receive groups names. It should be > noted that nobody calls eucrites, "HED-group eucrites", so would not the name, > if decided upon, just be "Peridotite", or should the HED-group part be carried > to not confuse people with an earth peridot? > > Personally, I still like the thought of using historical names for clans, and > then the more scientific words added to define the groups. I do however see > logic in using names that are easy to recognize for the average geologist. > > Mark Bostick > www.MeteoriteArticles.com > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Here are a couple more. 1. Mantlelite (variation on Martin's naming) 2. Gabbrolite (using gabbro as a general term for this type of deep plutonic rock) John > Dave wrote: > > Perhaps just as a slightly "cleaner" version, might using > "HED-group peridotite" rather than "HED-clan peridotite" be > a bit better? > > > From my understanding you would say clan. Like eucrites are a clan, and within > eucrites you have several groups or different types of eucrites, such as > Polymict Eucrite or Unbrecciated Eucrite. Given a few more finds (or more > study?), the different Peridotites would receive groups names. It should be > noted that nobody calls eucrites, "HED-group eucrites", so would not the name, > if decided upon, just be "Peridotite", or should the HED-group part be carried > to not confuse people with an earth peridot? > > Personally, I still like the thought of using historical names for clans, and > then the more scientific words added to define the groups. I do however see > logic in using names that are easy to recognize for the average geologist. > > Mark Bostick > www.MeteoriteArticles.com > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Dave wrote: Perhaps just as a slightly "cleaner" version, might using"HED-group peridotite" rather than "HED-clan peridotite" bea bit better? >From my understanding you would say clan. Like eucrites are a clan, and within eucrites you have several groups or different types of eucrites, such as Polymict Eucrite or Unbrecciated Eucrite. Given a few more finds (or more study?), the different Peridotites would receive groups names. It should be noted that nobody calls eucrites, "HED-group eucrites", so would not the name, if decided upon, just be "Peridotite", or should the HED-group part be carried to not confuse people with an earth peridot? Personally, I still like the thought of using historical names for clans, and then the more scientific words added to define the groups. I do however see logic in using names that are easy to recognize for the average geologist. Mark Bostick www.MeteoriteArticles.com
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Hi, Not to be overly picky (ha!), but the chances that HED meteorites come directly from Vesta itself is very small. The orbital mechanics of getting a chunk from Vesta into an Earth-intersecting orbit are of such a very low probability that it is virtually impossible that the continuing rain of HED meteorites could have come directly from Vesta. However, there are a number of asteroidal bodies much small than Vesta which occupy intermediate orbits in the Vesta family from which pieces could be knocked off which chunks could make it to Earth much more easily. McSween's book has a good section on them. He calls them the "Vestoids." They appear to be large "left-overs" from long ago major impacts on Vesta. (We know Vesta has to have been walloped heavily because so many parts of its internal structure have been exposed and even removed.) It is much more likely that this ancient large impact rubble (the Vestoids) is the source of the HED's that arrive on Earth. Of course, if we are going ultimately to a nomenclature that is based on the actual source body for meteorites, this would mean that the term might end up being "Vestoid peridotite!" Sterling K. Webb - Adam Hupe wrote: > Dear Jeff and List, > > Thank you Jeff for clearing up a very confusing issue. I guess we were > still thinking 19th century in wanting to honor a pioneer in naming a new > group. We assumed since no major changes to the HED group had been > incorporated that the meteoritic community somehow wanted to preserve this > out-of-date system out of tradition. I see moon rocks were not named after > the astronauts who found them only a mineral, same for Ninninger. It is > good to know that the HED designations are today recognized as being > inadequate for the classification of some new types of achondrites. > > Since there is no ground truth for Vesta I can see why this name cannot be > used in the title leaving only the antiquated HED term. I think adding the > "HED-clan" term in front of a new group is the way to go. When a probe > finally reaches Vesta and we have some ground truth then the term "Vesta" > can be used instead of "HED-clan". It is now obvious to me why the Martian > and Lunar meteorties were treated differently than the HED group. > > I guess you are never too old to learn. This greatly narrows down the > choice of terms in naming this new group. Jeff may have won with the > "HED-clan peridotite" which someday may be called a "Vesta peridotite". > This is much clearer than the term "Olivine Diogenite". > > All the best, > > Adam Hupe > > ----- Original Message - > From: "Jeff Grossman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:57 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group > > > At 12:57 PM 6/18/2003, Adam Hupe wrote: > > >Dear List, > > > > > >A lot of good suggestions for naming this new group are rolling in and we > > >are pleased with the turn-out. We thought the NomCom had something to do > > >with naming of meteorite groups because many submitted description titles > > >have been changed after NomCom voting when new meteorites were submitted. > > >One example is NWA 1459 which was submitted as an "Olivine Diogenite" and > > >was published as "Diogenite, olivine-rich"... > > > > > >Adam and Greg Hupe > > >The Hupe Collection > > >IMCA 2185 > > > > The Meteoritical Bulletin is an edited publication. Basically, it is up > to > > the Editor, acting on advice from the NomCom and the person describing the > > meteorite, to use whatever classification terms she sees fit. In fact, if > > somebody names these meteorites Bozoites, the Editor will still call them > > by the term she thinks most appropriate. I will certainly advise her to > > avoid new trivial terms unless they come into common usage. > > > > I want to emphasize: the names eucrite, diogenite, and howardite are 19th > > Century coinages. They are remnants of the old Rose-Tschermak-Brezina > > classification system, most of which is long-dead. They only survive > > because ancient traditions die hard, and until the 1970's there were very > > few achondrites available for systematic classification. It is not > > reasonable to coin new 19th-C style names for things. Science has > > progressed too far. > > > > Adam Hupe also wrote: > > > >If these five were from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic > > > Peri
RE: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
>I guess you are never too old to learn. This greatly narrows down the >choice of terms in naming this new group. Jeff may have won with the <"HED-clan peridotite" which someday may be called a "Vesta peridotite". >This is much clearer than the term "Olivine Diogenite". Perhaps just as a slightly "cleaner" version, might using "HED-group peridotite" rather than "HED-clan peridotite" be a bit better? Dave Johnson __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Dear Jeff and List, Thank you Jeff for clearing up a very confusing issue. I guess we were still thinking 19th century in wanting to honor a pioneer in naming a new group. We assumed since no major changes to the HED group had been incorporated that the meteoritic community somehow wanted to preserve this out-of-date system out of tradition. I see moon rocks were not named after the astronauts who found them only a mineral, same for Ninninger. It is good to know that the HED designations are today recognized as being inadequate for the classification of some new types of achondrites. Since there is no ground truth for Vesta I can see why this name cannot be used in the title leaving only the antiquated HED term. I think adding the "HED-clan" term in front of a new group is the way to go. When a probe finally reaches Vesta and we have some ground truth then the term "Vesta" can be used instead of "HED-clan". It is now obvious to me why the Martian and Lunar meteorties were treated differently than the HED group. I guess you are never too old to learn. This greatly narrows down the choice of terms in naming this new group. Jeff may have won with the "HED-clan peridotite" which someday may be called a "Vesta peridotite". This is much clearer than the term "Olivine Diogenite". All the best, Adam Hupe - Original Message - From: "Jeff Grossman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group > At 12:57 PM 6/18/2003, Adam Hupe wrote: > >Dear List, > > > >A lot of good suggestions for naming this new group are rolling in and we > >are pleased with the turn-out. We thought the NomCom had something to do > >with naming of meteorite groups because many submitted description titles > >have been changed after NomCom voting when new meteorites were submitted. > >One example is NWA 1459 which was submitted as an "Olivine Diogenite" and > >was published as "Diogenite, olivine-rich"... > > > >Adam and Greg Hupe > >The Hupe Collection > >IMCA 2185 > > The Meteoritical Bulletin is an edited publication. Basically, it is up to > the Editor, acting on advice from the NomCom and the person describing the > meteorite, to use whatever classification terms she sees fit. In fact, if > somebody names these meteorites Bozoites, the Editor will still call them > by the term she thinks most appropriate. I will certainly advise her to > avoid new trivial terms unless they come into common usage. > > I want to emphasize: the names eucrite, diogenite, and howardite are 19th > Century coinages. They are remnants of the old Rose-Tschermak-Brezina > classification system, most of which is long-dead. They only survive > because ancient traditions die hard, and until the 1970's there were very > few achondrites available for systematic classification. It is not > reasonable to coin new 19th-C style names for things. Science has > progressed too far. > > Adam Hupe also wrote: > > >If these five were from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic > > Peridotites" >but you cannot use terrestrial terms to name meteorite types. > > This is wrong. New types of martian meteorites are now classified as, > e.g., ALH 84001: "martian orthopyroxenite." Trivial names have also not > been coined for lunar meteorites: they are classified as "lunar basalt," > "lunar anorthosite," etc. The names of HED-clan achondrites should follow > suit. Once we're sure they're from Vesta, they should be called "Vesta > peridotite" or some such. For now, terms like "olivine diogenite" or, a > better alternative, "HED-clan peridotite" serve to identify both the > mineralogy and parent body. > > jeff > > > > > > >- Original Message - > >From: "Jeff Grossman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:23 AM > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group > > > > > > > New groups names are not a NomCom issue, although there are people who > > > think it should be. Group names come into being through consensus. Many > > > group names have died at birth, never being adopted by anybody other that > > > the person who wrote the initial publication (e.g., F chondrites, CA > > > chondrites). Others have caught on and become widely accepted (recently, > > > R, CH, CK, CR chondrites). Still others remain on the fence (e.g., CB > > > chondrites versus bencubbinites or just bencubbin-like meteorites
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Dear Dr. Grossman, Adam, and List members; As a growing amateur (and successful hunter)... (and amateur's make the hobby grow, and the growing hobby makes the dealers and collectors grow, and dealers and collectors growing make the science grow);I do use the words: ecrucite, diogenite, howardite, and have been trained since my first day learning meteorites to become familiar with these terms and mental pictures of what they relate to in the meteorite world. The pictures in the Rocks From Space books, and any entry level publication (Bob Haag's catalogue's, old and new) all have these "archaic" terms next to the very full color pictures of our glorious meteorites. These terms may be old school, and out dated terms but please remember that if you give a test to 90 percent of the world of meteorite collectors, these are commonly used terms that are very familiar to the vast majority of us; the common meteorite person. At any given large February rock and mineral show where the gods and the common man among us congregate, these are yet very familiar terms, these archaic: ecrucite, diogenite, howardite... Science may have progressed too far. New bath water is fine, let's not loose the baby that got us here. Before we go to changing too much, maybe the learning tools, ie, the books that we learn from, need to be all upgraded before we start renaming everything. I have yet to read my first Meteoritical Bulletin and yet I have a new meteorite under classification that will be there in a year. Please don't alienate the growing amateur, or the average collector. Lost in space, Dave Freeman IMCA # 3864 As a post note, Bozoites are those of our generation that grew up watching WGN TV Chicago every day at 5:30 pm and thus that name is already taken. Jeff Grossman wrote: At 12:57 PM 6/18/2003, Adam Hupe wrote: Dear List, A lot of good suggestions for naming this new group are rolling in and we are pleased with the turn-out. We thought the NomCom had something to do with naming of meteorite groups because many submitted description titles have been changed after NomCom voting when new meteorites were submitted. One example is NWA 1459 which was submitted as an "Olivine Diogenite" and was published as "Diogenite, olivine-rich"... Adam and Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection IMCA 2185 The Meteoritical Bulletin is an edited publication. Basically, it is up to the Editor, acting on advice from the NomCom and the person describing the meteorite, to use whatever classification terms she sees fit. In fact, if somebody names these meteorites Bozoites, the Editor will still call them by the term she thinks most appropriate. I will certainly advise her to avoid new trivial terms unless they come into common usage. I want to emphasize: the names eucrite, diogenite, and howardite are 19th Century coinages. They are remnants of the old Rose-Tschermak-Brezina classification system, most of which is long-dead. They only survive because ancient traditions die hard, and until the 1970's there were very few achondrites available for systematic classification. It is not reasonable to coin new 19th-C style names for things. Science has progressed too far. Adam Hupe also wrote: >If these five were from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic Peridotites" >but you cannot use terrestrial terms to name meteorite types. This is wrong. New types of martian meteorites are now classified as, e.g., ALH 84001: "martian orthopyroxenite." Trivial names have also not been coined for lunar meteorites: they are classified as "lunar basalt," "lunar anorthosite," etc. The names of HED-clan achondrites should follow suit. Once we're sure they're from Vesta, they should be called "Vesta peridotite" or some such. For now, terms like "olivine diogenite" or, a better alternative, "HED-clan peridotite" serve to identify both the mineralogy and parent body. jeff ----- Original Message - From: "Jeff Grossman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group > New groups names are not a NomCom issue, although there are people who > think it should be. Group names come into being through consensus. Many > group names have died at birth, never being adopted by anybody other that > the person who wrote the initial publication (e.g., F chondrites, CA > chondrites). Others have caught on and become widely accepted (recently, > R, CH, CK, CR chondrites). Still others remain on the fence (e.g., CB > chondrites versus bencubbinites or just bencubbin-like meteorites). It > takes time. > > My personal opinion is that "olivine diogenite" is a perfectly fine > term. Al
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
At 12:57 PM 6/18/2003, Adam Hupe wrote: Dear List, A lot of good suggestions for naming this new group are rolling in and we are pleased with the turn-out. We thought the NomCom had something to do with naming of meteorite groups because many submitted description titles have been changed after NomCom voting when new meteorites were submitted. One example is NWA 1459 which was submitted as an "Olivine Diogenite" and was published as "Diogenite, olivine-rich"... Adam and Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection IMCA 2185 The Meteoritical Bulletin is an edited publication. Basically, it is up to the Editor, acting on advice from the NomCom and the person describing the meteorite, to use whatever classification terms she sees fit. In fact, if somebody names these meteorites Bozoites, the Editor will still call them by the term she thinks most appropriate. I will certainly advise her to avoid new trivial terms unless they come into common usage. I want to emphasize: the names eucrite, diogenite, and howardite are 19th Century coinages. They are remnants of the old Rose-Tschermak-Brezina classification system, most of which is long-dead. They only survive because ancient traditions die hard, and until the 1970's there were very few achondrites available for systematic classification. It is not reasonable to coin new 19th-C style names for things. Science has progressed too far. Adam Hupe also wrote: >If these five were from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic Peridotites" >but you cannot use terrestrial terms to name meteorite types. This is wrong. New types of martian meteorites are now classified as, e.g., ALH 84001: "martian orthopyroxenite." Trivial names have also not been coined for lunar meteorites: they are classified as "lunar basalt," "lunar anorthosite," etc. The names of HED-clan achondrites should follow suit. Once we're sure they're from Vesta, they should be called "Vesta peridotite" or some such. For now, terms like "olivine diogenite" or, a better alternative, "HED-clan peridotite" serve to identify both the mineralogy and parent body. jeff - Original Message - From: "Jeff Grossman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group > New groups names are not a NomCom issue, although there are people who > think it should be. Group names come into being through consensus. Many > group names have died at birth, never being adopted by anybody other that > the person who wrote the initial publication (e.g., F chondrites, CA > chondrites). Others have caught on and become widely accepted (recently, > R, CH, CK, CR chondrites). Still others remain on the fence (e.g., CB > chondrites versus bencubbinites or just bencubbin-like meteorites). It > takes time. > > My personal opinion is that "olivine diogenite" is a perfectly fine > term. Although it preserves the antiquated, nondescriptive, trivial term > "diogenite," everybody in meteoritics now knows what a diogenite is, and > that it comes from the HED parent body, most likely Vesta. What we don't > need now, in this age where we actually know where meteorites come from, is > more trivial terms. I strongly doubt that any publication that proposes > calling them something else would ever catch on. > > jeff > > > At 10:55 PM 6/17/2003, Adam Hupe wrote: > >Dear List Members, > > > >It is our pleasure to announce NWA 1877, (provisional) the second so-called > >"Olivine Diogenite" in private hands. This makes number five including the > >three Antarctic finds. The significance of it being number five is that it > >now qualifies to be promoted to main group status if approved by the > >Nomenclature Committee. Scientists who are working on it agree that this > >ultra-rare class is suited in every way for a new full-blown group and are > >willing to propose this new group. Since O-Isotopes place this from the > >same parent body as the HED group, naming this new group would be a > >history-making event. A main group has never been added to the HED > >assemblage, only subgroups. > > > >This is not paired with NWA 1459, which was found in Iriqui and only weighed > >49 grams. Weighing in at 312 grams, NWA 1877, (provisional) is the most > >olivine-rich yet found with ~50% of this mineral. The scientists who are > >working on it suggested coming up with a new name for this group since > >Diogenite, by definition, does not accurately describe this type of > >meteorite. The name "Olivine Diogenite" was coined by scientists working on > >the Antarctic finds for l
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Hello, Mark, Adam and the list, it looks also to me, it may be a clearer way to name the new types honouring names or so. This is a tradition in minerology. The type can be diogenite - eucrite, but it´s called as Howardite, or olivine - diogenite as "Bostickite". Think it´s a good time to create a naming-tradition also for the types of meteorites now. New types have been found, and if you check the carbonaceus chondrites, the current tradition to give names for the babies is not good, CV, CK, CB don´t tell much, and when we´ll have 20 types of CC:s, it will be quite a mess, the letters will end...in these cases we have to remember, the tradition should stay the next several hundred years. I suppose, we could borrow the tradition from mineralogy, the type can be the composition of the meteorite, but it can be named in a more clearer way, it´s same thing with the asteroids, it sounds much nicer to talk about Vesta than A18062003. We don´t call Alexandrite as beryllium-aluminium-oxide, and today it would sound funny to do so outside lab. But perhaps people had more imagination 100 years ago... just my 2 cents again, pekka MARK BOSTICK wrote: Hello Adam and list, I also agree that the group should get more concise name. Calling them "Olivine Diogenites" is like calling a Howardite a "Diogenite Eucrite". It is a the best confusing. Mark Bostick www.MeteoriteArticles.com -- Pekka Savolainen Jokiharjuntie 4 FIN-71330 Rasala FINLAND + 358 400 818 912 Group Home Page: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/eurocoin Group Email Address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Hello Greg, Adam and All, I was talking with John Horner, the famous dinosaur digger of Montana once about the naming of dinosaurs. He felt that the name should represent something about the beast rather than the one who found it. An example is instead of T. rex, which seems to me not much of a T. after all. He proposed the name Cretaceous rex since it was from that time period. Or a better example might be his Mayasaur where the name means "good mother lizard" (he can't do much about the saur=lizard part right now, but he did make note that the dinosaur cared for its young. Therefore, I propose a new paradigm in naming meteorites, one where the name holds information other than that of the type specimen or human interaction. In this case the name I propose is Lowermantleite that indicates where it came from the parent body. Otherwise, since it was a couple of NWAs that pushed the olivine-dios over the edge into a respectable working group, then NWAite should be the next o bvious but boring and useless name. Cheers, Martin __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Hello Adam and list, I also agree that the group should get more concise name. Calling them "Olivine Diogenites" is like calling a Howardite a "Diogenite Eucrite". It is a the best confusing. Mark Bostick www.MeteoriteArticles.com
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Dear List, A lot of good suggestions for naming this new group are rolling in and we are pleased with the turn-out. We thought the NomCom had something to do with naming of meteorite groups because many submitted description titles have been changed after NomCom voting when new meteorites were submitted. One example is NWA 1459 which was submitted as an "Olivine Diogenite" and was published as "Diogenite, olivine-rich". Only a few scientists ever heard the term "Olivine Diogenite" before NWA 1459 was announced. It finally answered the question for some researchers "Where are the pieces from Vesta's mantle?" It is now widely accepted that these are what they have been looking for. It is our belief that by incorporating the name "Diogenite" in the title the true importance of these specimens was lost to obscurity. The term is so obscure that despite the best efforts of the list nobody was able to guess the "Mystery Main Mass Contest" even though several good clues and coaching were given. We agree that a consensus should be reached before an attempt is made at naming this group. That is why we are seeking help of the list to come up with a suitable name. What better time than now since very few papers are published using the descriptor "Olivine Diogenite"? Before NWA 1459 was announced you might get three hits when using a search engine. After the List comes up with a suitable name we will ask researchers, again what they think before trying to incorporate a new name. The subject has been discussed with several scientists who feel that a new name would be in order rather than trying to pigeonhole it into another group. We believe that by adding another group it will make it clearer in this case rather than clouding the waters. All the best, Adam and Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection IMCA 2185 - Original Message - From: "Jeff Grossman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group > New groups names are not a NomCom issue, although there are people who > think it should be. Group names come into being through consensus. Many > group names have died at birth, never being adopted by anybody other that > the person who wrote the initial publication (e.g., F chondrites, CA > chondrites). Others have caught on and become widely accepted (recently, > R, CH, CK, CR chondrites). Still others remain on the fence (e.g., CB > chondrites versus bencubbinites or just bencubbin-like meteorites). It > takes time. > > My personal opinion is that "olivine diogenite" is a perfectly fine > term. Although it preserves the antiquated, nondescriptive, trivial term > "diogenite," everybody in meteoritics now knows what a diogenite is, and > that it comes from the HED parent body, most likely Vesta. What we don't > need now, in this age where we actually know where meteorites come from, is > more trivial terms. I strongly doubt that any publication that proposes > calling them something else would ever catch on. > > jeff > > > At 10:55 PM 6/17/2003, Adam Hupe wrote: > >Dear List Members, > > > >It is our pleasure to announce NWA 1877, (provisional) the second so-called > >"Olivine Diogenite" in private hands. This makes number five including the > >three Antarctic finds. The significance of it being number five is that it > >now qualifies to be promoted to main group status if approved by the > >Nomenclature Committee. Scientists who are working on it agree that this > >ultra-rare class is suited in every way for a new full-blown group and are > >willing to propose this new group. Since O-Isotopes place this from the > >same parent body as the HED group, naming this new group would be a > >history-making event. A main group has never been added to the HED > >assemblage, only subgroups. > > > >This is not paired with NWA 1459, which was found in Iriqui and only weighed > >49 grams. Weighing in at 312 grams, NWA 1877, (provisional) is the most > >olivine-rich yet found with ~50% of this mineral. The scientists who are > >working on it suggested coming up with a new name for this group since > >Diogenite, by definition, does not accurately describe this type of > >meteorite. The name "Olivine Diogenite" was coined by scientists working on > >the Antarctic finds for lack of a better term at the time. If these five > >were from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic Peridotites" but you > >cannot use terrestrial terms to name meteorite types. This is where the > >List may be able to help. Scientists suggested that the meteoritic > >community, m
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
New groups names are not a NomCom issue, although there are people who think it should be. Group names come into being through consensus. Many group names have died at birth, never being adopted by anybody other that the person who wrote the initial publication (e.g., F chondrites, CA chondrites). Others have caught on and become widely accepted (recently, R, CH, CK, CR chondrites). Still others remain on the fence (e.g., CB chondrites versus bencubbinites or just bencubbin-like meteorites). It takes time. My personal opinion is that "olivine diogenite" is a perfectly fine term. Although it preserves the antiquated, nondescriptive, trivial term "diogenite," everybody in meteoritics now knows what a diogenite is, and that it comes from the HED parent body, most likely Vesta. What we don't need now, in this age where we actually know where meteorites come from, is more trivial terms. I strongly doubt that any publication that proposes calling them something else would ever catch on. jeff At 10:55 PM 6/17/2003, Adam Hupe wrote: Dear List Members, It is our pleasure to announce NWA 1877, (provisional) the second so-called "Olivine Diogenite" in private hands. This makes number five including the three Antarctic finds. The significance of it being number five is that it now qualifies to be promoted to main group status if approved by the Nomenclature Committee. Scientists who are working on it agree that this ultra-rare class is suited in every way for a new full-blown group and are willing to propose this new group. Since O-Isotopes place this from the same parent body as the HED group, naming this new group would be a history-making event. A main group has never been added to the HED assemblage, only subgroups. This is not paired with NWA 1459, which was found in Iriqui and only weighed 49 grams. Weighing in at 312 grams, NWA 1877, (provisional) is the most olivine-rich yet found with ~50% of this mineral. The scientists who are working on it suggested coming up with a new name for this group since Diogenite, by definition, does not accurately describe this type of meteorite. The name "Olivine Diogenite" was coined by scientists working on the Antarctic finds for lack of a better term at the time. If these five were from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic Peridotites" but you cannot use terrestrial terms to name meteorite types. This is where the List may be able to help. Scientists suggested that the meteoritic community, meaning the List, come up with a name for this group. We do not know what to call this proposed new group since none of them are from witnessed falls. It was suggested that it be named in honor of some famous pioneer in the field of meteoritics or some closely related discipline. We are open to suggestions and know that List members can be very creative. Who knows? you may be able to become a part of history by coming up with a suitable name. In case you have not guessed this will be the weekly rare material announcement but with some added flare because it is something anyone could get involved in if they wished. If you come up with a suitable name we will send you a 1-gram plus specimen free of charge. Wishing everybody the very best, Adam and Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection IMCA 2185 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman Chair, Meteorite Nomenclature Committee (Meteoritical Society) US Geological Survey 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA Phone: (703) 648-6184 fax: (703) 648-6383 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Hi Steve and all, Real good idea using Richard Norton (and his super nice wife) for a classification. They get my vote! --AL __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
I'll throw two in...Saganite or Hawkingite. Saganite has a nice ring to it.--Rob Wesel--We are the music makers...and we are the dreamers of the dreams.Willy Wonka, 1971 Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear List Members,It is our pleasure to announce NWA 1877, (provisional) the second so-called"Olivine Diogenite" in private hands. This makes number five including thethree Antarctic finds. The significance of it being number five is that itnow qualifies to be promoted to main group status if approved by theNomenclature Committee. Scientists who are working on it agree that thisultra-rare class is suited in every way for a new full-blown group and arewilling to propose this new group. Since O-Isotopes place this from thesame parent body as the HED group, naming this new group would be ahistory-making event. A main group has never been added to the HEDassemblage, only subgroups.This is not paired with NWA 1459, which was found in Iriqui and only weighed49 grams. Weighing in at 312 grams, NWA 1877, (provisional) is the mostolivine-rich yet found with ~50% of this mineral. The scientists who areworking on it suggested coming up with a new name for this group sinceDiogenite, by definition, does not accurately describe this type ofmeteorite. The name "Olivine Diogenite" was coined by scientists working onthe Antarctic finds for lack of a better term at the time. If these fivewere from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic Peridotites" but youcannot use terrestrial terms to name meteorite types. This is where theList may be able to help. Scientists suggested that the meteoriticcommunity, meaning the List, come up with a name for this group.We do not know what to call this proposed new group since none of them arefrom witnessed falls. It was suggested that it be named in honor of somefamous pioneer in the field of meteoritics or some closely relateddiscipline. We are open to suggestions and know that List members can bevery creative. Who knows? you may be able to become a part of history bycoming up with a suitable name.In case you have not guessed this will be the weekly rare materialannouncement but with some added flare because it is something anyone couldget involved in if they wished. If you come up with a suitable name wewill send you a 1-gram plus specimen free of charge.Wishing everybody the very best,Adam and Greg HupeThe Hupe CollectionIMCA 2185__Meteorite-list mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Becase diogenites were once named Chladnite this name appears in much of the old literature. Therefore I would argue that to reuse his name would lead to some minor confusion between the two. If you want an old death historical figure naming this Olbersite after Wilhem Olbers, the discover of Vesta and other early asteroids, would be sensible choice. Also ironic tribute as it was because of Olbers that the outer planets are name after the gods and not named after their discoverers. Olber had gave his friend Gauss the priviledge to name this asteroid when other astronomers were selfishly fighting over the names on what are now known as Uranus and Neptune. Such virtue made for poetic nomenclature. And this will link his name to his discovery.Good for teaching science. However, I wish to propose a modern name for this new meteorite. For his contribution to the public education on meteorites and life time work in the field of meteorics, let's call this Nortonite. (For O. Richard Norton and his wife Dorothy.) I can't think of no one else who would feel more humbled, nor would give our community greater pleasure than to honored these gentlepersons. While other's may have been first to asking the question, "Where are the olivine diogenites", no one has ask this question louder or explain the significance more clearly as he has in his two books. "Rocks in Space" and "The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Meteorites" How many of us would even care about HED hadn't been for these two popular works. Howard Wu Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear List Members,It is our pleasure to announce NWA 1877, (provisional) the second so-called"Olivine Diogenite" in private hands. This makes number five including thethree Antarctic finds. The significance of it being number five is that itnow qualifies to be promoted to main group status if approved by theNomenclature Committee. Scientists who are working on it agree that thisultra-rare class is suited in every way for a new full-blown group and arewilling to propose this new group. Since O-Isotopes place this from thesame parent body as the HED group, naming this new group would be ahistory-making event. A main group has never been added to the HEDassemblage, only subgroups.This is not paired with NWA 1459, which was found in Iriqui and only weighed49 grams. Weighing in at 312 grams, NWA 1877, (provisional) is the mostolivine-rich yet found with ~50% of this mineral. The scientists who areworking on it suggested coming up with a new name for this group sinceDiogenite, by definition, does not accurately describe this type ofmeteorite. The name "Olivine Diogenite" was coined by scientists working onthe Antarctic finds for lack of a better term at the time. If these fivewere from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic Peridotites" but youcannot use terrestrial terms to name meteorite types. This is where theList may be able to help. Scientists suggested that the meteoriticcommunity, meaning the List, come up with a name for this group.We do not know what to call this proposed new group since none of them arefrom witnessed falls. It was suggested that it be named in honor of somefamous pioneer in the field of meteoritics or some closely relateddiscipline. We are open to suggestions and know that List members can bevery creative. Who knows? you may be able to become a part of history bycoming up with a suitable name.In case you have not guessed this will be the weekly rare materialannouncement but with some added flare because it is something anyone couldget involved in if they wished. If you come up with a suitable name wewill send you a 1-gram plus specimen free of charge.Wishing everybody the very best,Adam and Greg HupeThe Hupe CollectionIMCA 2185__Meteorite-list mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-listWant to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Hi Adam, How about honoring the great photographer of leaverites? Yousefite? ;-) Dave __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Greetings Al, Adam, List, My thoughts went to Dr. Nininger also, but since he has already recieved the honor, my next thought went to the man who's responsible for alot of us having the knowledg we now have. What do you all think of "Nortonite". I think it's time to put credit where credit is due. That's about as "witt"y as I get. thanx, Steve --- almitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Adam and all, > > Adam Hupe wrote: > > It was suggested that it be named in honor of some famous pioneer > in the field of > meteoritics or some closely related. > > I would like to see Harvey Nininger's name associated with it if at > all possible. He > has the honor though, of having a meteoritic mineral named after > him Niningerite so > perhaps something like Harveyite might create less confusion for > this new class of > meteorite belonging to the HED group. On the other hand HEDH might > also be confusing. > Perhaps those more witty than I can figure something. > > --AL > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list = Steve Witt IMCA #9020 http://www.meteoritecollectors.org __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Just a quick note on this earlier post. If Chladnite should be accepted by the Nom. Comm. then the Vesta meteorites could become known as the "CHED" group; just a few letters away from becoming a real "cheesy" group. ;-) - Original Message - From: fcressy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; MARK BOSTICK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group > Hello Mark, Adam and all, > > At one time Diogenites were known as Chladnites so I have to agree with Mark > here, but I think Norton already beat him to it. In "The Cambridge > Encyclopedia of Meteorites" page 153, Norton states, "It seems a shame that > Diogenes was selected over Chladni for the honor of having named after him > these rare meteorites" (referring to diogenites). As Mark suggested, I also > agree that Chladni should have the honor of the even rarer "Olivine > Diogenite" meteorites named after him. > > Mark wrote: > >Ernst Florenz Friedrich Chladni was the first person to propose >meteorites > and fireballs were related and the to suggest they >were bodies from space, > so with that in mind. I will suggest >Chladnite. > > Incidently, Norton states that Chaldni was the first to DEMONSTRATE that > meteorites came from beyond Earth's atmosphere whereas Diogenes is given > credit for SUGGESTING meteorites came from space. > > My two cents, > Frank > > P.S. If any one wants to purchase some Masonite, I can come up with some. > Not clear yet if I should sell it by the gram or by the board-foot. ;-) > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Hello Mark, Adam and all, At one time Diogenites were known as Chladnites so I have to agree with Mark here, but I think Norton already beat him to it. In "The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Meteorites" page 153, Norton states, "It seems a shame that Diogenes was selected over Chladni for the honor of having named after him these rare meteorites" (referring to diogenites). As Mark suggested, I also agree that Chladni should have the honor of the even rarer "Olivine Diogenite" meteorites named after him. Mark wrote: >Ernst Florenz Friedrich Chladni was the first person to propose >meteorites and fireballs were related and the to suggest they >were bodies from space, so with that in mind. I will suggest >Chladnite. Incidently, Norton states that Chaldni was the first to DEMONSTRATE that meteorites came from beyond Earth's atmosphere whereas Diogenes is given credit for SUGGESTING meteorites came from space. My two cents, Frank P.S. If any one wants to purchase some Masonite, I can come up with some. Not clear yet if I should sell it by the gram or by the board-foot. ;-) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Hello Adam, Greg and list, Ernst Florenz Friedrich Chladni was the first person to propose meteorites and fireballs were related and the to suggest they were bodies from space, so with that in mind. I will suggest Chladnite. Two people that have done a lot for meteorites in the last thirty years would be Brian Mason or John Wasson. This would give us Masonite or Wassonite. Brian Mason would be the better choice here because of his work at chondrite classification. Now if we were looking for federal funding for meteorites.Bushite might be a way to go. That doesn't really ring well. And of course, if you wanted to use Bostickite, I would be honored. (Just kidding.) Thanks for the thought provoking e-mail. Mark Bostick www.MeteoriteArticles.com - Original Message - From: Adam Hupe Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 10:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group Dear List Members,It is our pleasure to announce NWA 1877, (provisional) the second so-called"Olivine Diogenite" in private hands. This makes number five including thethree Antarctic finds. The significance of it being number five is that itnow qualifies to be promoted to main group status if approved by theNomenclature Committee. Scientists who are working on it agree that thisultra-rare class is suited in every way for a new full-blown group and arewilling to propose this new group. Since O-Isotopes place this from thesame parent body as the HED group, naming this new group would be ahistory-making event. A main group has never been added to the HEDassemblage, only subgroups.This is not paired with NWA 1459, which was found in Iriqui and only weighed49 grams. Weighing in at 312 grams, NWA 1877, (provisional) is the mostolivine-rich yet found with ~50% of this mineral. The scientists who areworking on it suggested coming up with a new name for this group sinceDiogenite, by definition, does not accurately describe this type ofmeteorite. The name "Olivine Diogenite" was coined by scientists working onthe Antarctic finds for lack of a better term at the time. If these fivewere from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic Peridotites" but youcannot use terrestrial terms to name meteorite types. This is where theList may be able to help. Scientists suggested that the meteoriticcommunity, meaning the List, come up with a name for this group.We do not know what to call this proposed new group since none of them arefrom witnessed falls. It was suggested that it be named in honor of somefamous pioneer in the field of meteoritics or some closely relateddiscipline. We are open to suggestions and know that List members can bevery creative. Who knows? you may be able to become a part of history bycoming up with a suitable name.In case you have not guessed this will be the weekly rare materialannouncement but with some added flare because it is something anyone couldget involved in if they wished. If you come up with a suitable name wewill send you a 1-gram plus specimen free of charge.Wishing everybody the very best,Adam and Greg HupeThe Hupe CollectionIMCA 2185__Meteorite-list mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Hi Adam and all, Adam Hupe wrote: It was suggested that it be named in honor of some famous pioneer in the field of meteoritics or some closely related. I would like to see Harvey Nininger's name associated with it if at all possible. He has the honor though, of having a meteoritic mineral named after him Niningerite so perhaps something like Harveyite might create less confusion for this new class of meteorite belonging to the HED group. On the other hand HEDH might also be confusing. Perhaps those more witty than I can figure something. --AL __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
