Re: [uf-discuss] Geo precision

[Ben O'Neill]

On 8/27/07, Ben Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Since then the only additional information I've found is that Flickr
stores accuracy (as an integer) based on the zoom level of the map
when you place a photo. In fact, if you zoom all the way out and
place a photo you'll get a notice warning you that the location is
too approximate and the photograph won't show up at higher zoom  
levels.


I've been doing some work with Google's geocoder, encoding addresses
into co-ordinates for mapping purposes.

Google uses an 9-point enum that is specified as a
human-understandable scale rather than specific geographical terms:

0Unknown location.
1Country level accuracy.
2Region (state, province, prefecture, etc.) level accuracy.
3Sub-region (county, municipality, etc.) level accuracy.
4Town (city, village) level accuracy.
5Post code (zip code) level accuracy.
6Street level accuracy.
7Intersection level accuracy.
8Address level accuracy.


Flickr uses a 16 point system:

- World level is 1
- Country is ~3
- Region is ~6
- City is ~11
- Street is ~16

This is taken from the Flickr API 



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Re: [uf-discuss] Need for plain-language intros for each microformat

[Angus McIntyre]

On Wed, August 29, 2007 10:59 am, Manu Sporny wrote:
> Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> I think it's time we moved the specs to *-spec or *-specification, and
>> used the "root" page for each microformat, such as the above, for a
>> plain-language introduction, taking care to avoid jargon as much as
>> possible.
>
> +1 for this idea. There have been several times where I've pointed
> somebody to a uF specification page to give them an overview and they
> just come back claiming that the page didn't really tell them
> anything... or worse, it confused them.
>
>> 
>
> The page should be a short introduction and shouldn't overwhelm the
> reader. Perhaps a 1-2 paragraph introduction, a very simple example, and
> links to other wiki pages at the bottom with more information.

+1 for the idea, and for Manu's description of how it should be done. A
well-chosen example up-front would be particularly helpful.

As well as a syntactic example, examples of use would be useful. For
instance, I still have no idea when I might want to use XOXO. Some simple
examples right upfront would probably do a lot to help users figure out
whether a particular microformat is for them or not.

Angus

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Re: [uf-discuss] hResume - notes on creation and some feedback wanted

[Scott Reynen]

On Aug 29, 2007, at 10:26 AM, Brian Suda wrote:


If an imaginary value of "present" were invented, then parsers would
probably do the same thing can take the current date() and save that
out to the file, otherwise DTEND:present wouldn't be a valid .ics
file.

this will take some thought. At the moment i think the easiest
solution is to either leave off DTEND or add it in programiatically
with the now()


iCalendar supports repeated events with no end.  I wonder if we could  
use that to suggest ongoing events.  For example, instead of saying I  
started my current employment on 2007-05-31 with no end, I could say  
I started at 2007-05-31 09:00:00, ended at 2007-05-31 17:00:00, and  
repeat that every weekday with no end to the repetition.  That's  
probably more information than anyone's actually publishing, but if  
that's workable in iCalendar, we could maybe come up with a shorthand  
for it in hCalendar.


Peace,
Scott
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Re: [uf-discuss] hResume - notes on creation and some feedback wanted

[Brian Suda]

On 8/29/07, Ciaran McNulty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think your message has crossed with my reply to Ted  - this isn't on
> the faq page because it's an existing issue on the hresume-issues
> page.
>
> I've no objection to leaving off dtend as a solution but I think it
> would need to be added to the hResume spec as a departure from iCal.

--- yes, we did just miss messages. According to the RFC an event
without a DTEND is to be treated as a 1 day event.

I also looked into DURATION as a possible solution, but that is no
different than constantly updating a DTEND. It would somehow still be
tied to a specific instance of the page. so i could uses now() and
have a server-side script generate the current date, but as things got
exported it would be frozen into the exported file as that date.

If an imaginary value of "present" were invented, then parsers would
probably do the same thing can take the current date() and save that
out to the file, otherwise DTEND:present wouldn't be a valid .ics
file.

this will take some thought. At the moment i think the easiest
solution is to either leave off DTEND or add it in programiatically
with the now()

feel free to document the options on the hreusme-issues page in more
detail and any possible solutions (if any)

-brian

-- 
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http://suda.co.uk
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Re: [uf-discuss] hResume - notes on creation and some feedback wanted

[Ciaran McNulty]

On 8/29/07, Brian Suda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 2. Thinking of places to link to to add rel-tag links is problematic -
> > at the moment I suspect people will err on the side of not using
> > rel-tag
>
> -- this has also been noted when some resume services let you add more
> free-text than simple 1-2 word terms. Can you document your
> experiences here:
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-issues
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-brainstorming

I will do - in some ways it's more to do with the fact I *have* to
link to an external site just to indicate what 'PHP' is, which seems
like a heavy load to place on the user.

> > 3. A very common element in CVs is a list of skills and years
> > experience with that skill.
>
> --- if this is common can you please add examples to the wiki? Maybe
> it was missed or omitted for some reason:

I can only really put my own CV on there, my only evidence is
anecdotal based on looking at a lot of (UK) developer's CVs lately.

> You could experiment with tagging and adding skills to an experience
> event. vevents can take "categoies" which can be rel-tags. So if i had
> a skill in 2001, then you could deduce date()-2001= years with skill.

That's a very good idea, thanks

> > 4. I've seen this discussed before without resolution - there doesn't
> > seem to be a way of marking up 'the present' as a finish date for an
> > experience vevent.
>
> as Ted said "Just leave out the dtend and you should be all set."
>
> i didn´t see this on the FAQ page, so please add this with an answer.
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-faq

I think your message has crossed with my reply to Ted  - this isn't on
the faq page because it's an existing issue on the hresume-issues
page.

I've no objection to leaving off dtend as a solution but I think it
would need to be added to the hResume spec as a departure from iCal.

-Ciaran McNulty

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Re: [uf-discuss] Need for plain-language intros for each microformat

[Andy Mabbett]

On Wed, August 29, 2007 16:40, Brian Suda wrote:
> On 8/29/07, Manu Sporny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[Manu's post hasn't arrived here, yet; I think my ISP has server trouble.]


>> Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>
>>> I think it's time we moved the specs to *-spec or *-specification,
>>> and used the "root" page for each microformat, such as the above, for
>>> a plain-language introduction, taking care to avoid jargon as much as
>>> possible.
>
> --- moving the specs would break links from all over the web and in
> dead tree books that say "you can view the hCard spec at ..." Cool URIs
> don't change. It is probably a better idea create new pages about each
> format and point people to those instead and link the specs to them.

The URI would still work, and a link to the spec could be included "above
the fold".

>> There have been several times where I've pointed
>> somebody to a uF specification page to give them an overview and they
>> just come back claiming that the page didn't really tell them
>> anything... or worse, it confused them.

It seems that this is quite common; it's certainly a problem which needs
to be addressed.

> --- while i agree that a good explication of what hCard, et al are,
> the specs are not always the best place too put this.
>
> "... I've pointed somebody to a uF specification page to give them an
> overview ..."
>
> The simple answer would be to create another overview page and point
> interested people there. When you want to learn more about HTML, do you
> look at the w3c spec or do you look else where?

http://www.w3.org/html/ is not a spec

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/, while it is a spec, has plain-language
intro and begins with links to more plain-language resources.

Compared to our "root" pages, those are exemplary models of usability.

> what is that else where?
> sometimes it is a primer, or info, or examples, or explanation, or about
> pages, sometimes they are w3c controlled sometimes not.
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-overview
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-about
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-primer
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-my-thoughts
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-info
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-explained
>
> could all be candidates for better explaining what an hCard is... as well,

I realised after my initial post that I created
 some time ago.

> it doesn't have to be hosted here. As was pointed out, the wikipedia entry
> is also a good place to explain the explanation and tell people they can
> read that as well.
>
> Microformats are all about bottom-up, we don´t need a central silo for
> "all things microformats". It is OK to have discussions, definitions
> about formats NOT on our wiki.

The microformats wiki is where people come to learn about microformats. We
should serve them.

> I´m all for cleaning things-up and giving more explanations, but this
> shouldn't be to the detriment of the specs and existing links, especially
> when it is so easy to create new pages on the wiki.

No one has suggested doing anything "to the detriment of the specs".

-- 
Andy Mabbett
** via webmail **

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Re: [uf-discuss] hResume - notes on creation and some feedback wanted

[Brian Suda]

On 8/29/07, Ciaran McNulty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 2. Thinking of places to link to to add rel-tag links is problematic -
> at the moment I suspect people will err on the side of not using
> rel-tag

-- this has also been noted when some resume services let you add more
free-text than simple 1-2 word terms. Can you document your
experiences here:

http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-issues
http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-brainstorming

> 3. A very common element in CVs is a list of skills and years
> experience with that skill.

--- if this is common can you please add examples to the wiki? Maybe
it was missed or omitted for some reason:

http://microformats.org/wiki/resume-brainstorming#Examples_Analysis

> Current skill markup is rel-tag which
> doesn't encapsulate this, so it may be an area to look at.

--- there has been a discussion of skill areas, but not really the
number or grading of a skill. This can be problematics, people who
have been driving for 70+ years have more experience, but are not
always better. Same would go for a 4 of 5 rating. These ratings (by
years or rating) are abritary to the individual. I know some listings
say "3-5 years experience" i am assuming that is the use-case for
dating skills?

You could experiment with tagging and adding skills to an experience
event. vevents can take "categoies" which can be rel-tags. So if i had
a skill in 2001, then you could deduce date()-2001= years with skill.
You can always use POSH markup at the moment too.

> 4. I've seen this discussed before without resolution - there doesn't
> seem to be a way of marking up 'the present' as a finish date for an
> experience vevent.

as Ted said "Just leave out the dtend and you should be all set."

i didn´t see this on the FAQ page, so please add this with an answer.
http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-faq

Then others can iterate on it as needed.

thanks,
-brian

-- 
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http://suda.co.uk

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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: hResume - notes on creation and some feedback wanted

[Ciaran McNulty]

On 8/29/07, Ciaran McNulty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Unfortunately vCard has a mechanism for generating default dtends when
> they are missing [1] - this is one of the issues on the hresume-issues
> page [2] that I'd really like to see resolved.

Apologies:

[1] 
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-October/006477.html
[2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-issues
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Re: [uf-discuss] Need for plain-language intros for each microformat

[Ciaran McNulty]

On 8/29/07, Brian Suda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- moving the specs would break links from all over the web and in
> dead tree books that say "you can view the hCard spec at ..." Cool
> URIs don't change. It is probably a better idea create new pages about
> each format and point people to those instead and link the specs to
> them.

I agree that moving the specs could be confusing, I'd propose either:

a) Moving the specs to *-specification and having a big clear note at
the top of the 'root' page directing trafic

or, preferably

b) Adding a *-intro page and a small island at the top of the existing
spec pages that says 'This is a specification, for a quick
introduction to * see *-intro' or something a bit more user-friendly.

-Ciaran McNulty
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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: hResume - notes on creation and some feedback wanted

[Ciaran McNulty]

On 8/29/07, Edward O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 4. I've seen this discussed before without resolution - there doesn't
> > seem to be a way of marking up 'the present' as a finish date for an
> > experience vevent.
>
> Just leave out the dtend and you should be all set.

Unfortunately vCard has a mechanism for generating default dtends when
they are missing [1] - this is one of the issues on the hresume-issues
page [2] that I'd really like to see resolved.

Possible solutions would be:

1. Stating in the hResume spec that an absent dtend in an hresume
event doesn't use this mechanism
2. Having some 'special' value that can be used for 'present'

Both would have negative impacts on hCal parsers that were trying to
consume the page and weren't 'hResume-aware'.

-Ciaran McNulty
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Re: [uf-discuss] Need for plain-language intros for each microformat

[Brian Suda]

On 8/29/07, Manu Sporny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Andy Mabbett wrote:
> > I think it's time we moved the specs to *-spec or *-specification, and
> > used the "root" page for each microformat, such as the above, for a
> > plain-language introduction, taking care to avoid jargon as much as
> > possible.

--- moving the specs would break links from all over the web and in
dead tree books that say "you can view the hCard spec at ..." Cool
URIs don't change. It is probably a better idea create new pages about
each format and point people to those instead and link the specs to
them.

> There have been several times where I've pointed
> somebody to a uF specification page to give them an overview and they
> just come back claiming that the page didn't really tell them
> anything... or worse, it confused them.

--- while i agree that a good explication of what hCard, et al are,
the specs are not always the best place too put this.

"... I've pointed somebody to a uF specification page to give them an
overview ..."

The simple answer would be to create another overview page and point
interested people there. When you want to learn more about HTML, do
you look at the w3c spec or do you look else where? what is that else
where? sometimes it is a primer, or info, or examples, or explanation,
or about pages, sometimes they are w3c controlled sometimes not.

http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-overview
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-about
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-primer
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-my-thoughts
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-info
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-explained

could all be candidates for better explaining what an hCard is... as
well, it doesn´t have to be hosted here. As was pointed out, the
wikipedia entry is also a good place to explain the explanation and
tell people they can read that as well.

Microformats are all about bottom-up, we don´t need a central silo for
"all things microformats". It is OK to have discussions, definitions
about formats NOT on our wiki.

I´m all for cleaning things-up and giving more explanations, but this
shouldn't be to the detriment of the specs and existing links,
especially when it is so easy to create new pages on the wiki.

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk

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[uf-discuss] Re: hResume - notes on creation and some feedback wanted

[Edward O'Connor]

> 4. I've seen this discussed before without resolution - there doesn't
> seem to be a way of marking up 'the present' as a finish date for an
> experience vevent.

Just leave out the dtend and you should be all set.


Ted

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Re: [uf-discuss] Need for plain-language intros for each microformat

[Manu Sporny]

Andy Mabbett wrote:
> I think it's time we moved the specs to *-spec or *-specification, and
> used the "root" page for each microformat, such as the above, for a
> plain-language introduction, taking care to avoid jargon as much as
> possible.

+1 for this idea. There have been several times where I've pointed
somebody to a uF specification page to give them an overview and they
just come back claiming that the page didn't really tell them
anything... or worse, it confused them.

> 

The page should be a short introduction and shouldn't overwhelm the
reader. Perhaps a 1-2 paragraph introduction, a very simple example, and
links to other wiki pages at the bottom with more information.

-- manu
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[uf-discuss] Need for plain-language intros for each microformat

[Andy Mabbett]

I have, not for the first time, been told by an "advocacy" correspondent
that they have read pages on the wiki, such as
http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard and
http://microformats.org/wiki/hCalendar, and are none-the-wiser as to what
microformats in general, and the specific microformats concerned, are.

I think it's time we moved the specs to *-spec or *-specification, and
used the "root" page for each microformat, such as the above, for a
plain-language introduction, taking care to avoid jargon as much as
possible.

This should be completed before the previously-discussed watershed caused
by the upcoming support for microformats in Firefox 3:



I would be inclined to model them, loosely, on these page on Wikipedia:





-- 
Andy Mabbett
** via webmail **

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RE: [uf-discuss] Easier submission of sites-in-the-wild for 'non-members'

[Andy Mabbett]

On Wed, August 29, 2007 10:24, Farndon, Tony wrote:

>> At the moment, the only way that people can add new
>> microformat-publishing sites to the wiki is to create an account. Some
>> publishers may not wish to go to the trouble of doing so, for a one-off
>> site submission.
>>
>> We should provide a form, or an e-mail address, where people can submit
>> such sites, which volunteers can then check and, if appropriate, add to
>> the wiki.

> Sites in the wild lists are already populated enough to give people a
> flavour imo, unless you want the wiki to be a massive index.

If the community decides that no further entries are required, then that
page should be marked as closed. If entries are still invited, then we
should not place unnecessary hurdles in the way of potential contributors.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
** via webmail **

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Re: [uf-discuss] sites consuming microformats

[Frances Berriman]

On 29/08/2007, Thom Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is there a list anywhere of sites that are making use of microformats in
> interesting ways?
>
> Obviously lots of people are publishing them because its so easy to do,
> but I've not come across many places really taking advantage of them.
>
> There's technorati and pingerati of course, and dopplr lets you add
> friends by entering a url with XFN on it.
>
> Any more?

Implementations [1] is always a good place to start.

[1]http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
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[uf-discuss] sites consuming microformats

[Thom Shannon]

Is there a list anywhere of sites that are making use of microformats in 
interesting ways?


Obviously lots of people are publishing them because its so easy to do, 
but I've not come across many places really taking advantage of them.


There's technorati and pingerati of course, and dopplr lets you add 
friends by entering a url with XFN on it.


Any more?
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RE: [uf-discuss] Easier submission of sites-in-the-wild for "non-members"

[Farndon, Tony]

Sites in the wild lists are already populated enough to give people a
flavour imo, unless you want the wiki to be a massive index.

Tony



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy
Mabbett
Sent: 29 August 2007 10:12
To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org
Subject: [uf-discuss] Easier submission of sites-in-the-wild for
"non-members"

At the moment, the only way that people can add new
microformat-publishing sites to the wiki is to create an account. Some
publishers may not wish to go to the trouble of doing so, for a one-off
site submission.

We should provide a form, or an e-mail address, where people can submit
such sites, which volunteers can then check and, if appropriate, add to
the wiki.

--
Andy Mabbett
** via webmail **

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[uf-discuss] hResume - notes on creation and some feedback wanted

[Ciaran McNulty]

Hi all,

I've just published an hResume here:
http://ciaranmcnulty.com/cv

I'd appreciate any comments about the markup.  Operator seems happy
with it but I've not tried with any other consumers.

Are there any active hResume aggregators I could submit it to?

Some notes on my experiences of marking it up:

1. Overall, with an existing knowledge of hCard and hCalendar, marking
up a CV as hResume is very straightforward.

2. Thinking of places to link to to add rel-tag links is problematic -
at the moment I suspect people will err on the side of not using
rel-tag

3. A very common element in CVs is a list of skills and years
experience with that skill.  Current skill markup is rel-tag which
doesn't encapsulate this, so it may be an area to look at.

4. I've seen this discussed before without resolution - there doesn't
seem to be a way of marking up 'the present' as a finish date for an
experience vevent.

-Ciaran McNulty
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[uf-discuss] Easier submission of sites-in-the-wild for "non-members"

[Andy Mabbett]

At the moment, the only way that people can add new microformat-publishing
sites to the wiki is to create an account. Some publishers may not wish to
go to the trouble of doing so, for a one-off site submission.

We should provide a form, or an e-mail address, where people can submit
such sites, which volunteers can then check and, if appropriate, add to
the wiki.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
** via webmail **

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Re: [uf-discuss] Nested Microformats and Operator

[Andy Mabbett]

In message
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Brian
Suda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>--- there currently are parsing rules for singleton instance of
>properties. Both hCalendar and hCard can take a GEO property. The first
>GEO property found after the root property (vcard or vevent) will be
>used as the GEO for that instance. So something like the following code
>would NOT get confused:
>
>- vevent
>-- hcard & location
>--- geo
>-- vcard attendee
>--- geo

But what if there is no GEO for the location:

- vevent
-- vcard & location
-- vcard attendee
--- geo

or if the order is reversed on the page:

- vevent
-- vcard attendee
--- geo
-- vcard & location
--- geo

How can we cater for such circumstances?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
*  Say "NO!" to compulsory UK ID Cards:  
*  Free Our Data:  
*  Are you using Microformats, yet:  ?
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