[uf-discuss] Major change to microformat specs without prior discussion or notification
The change made recently, to the hCard spec: http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsingdiff=nextoldid=25563 affects not only hCard but also other microformats; it has implications for both current parsers and published microformats, but seems to have been made without prior notification or debate. Note, for example, that it precludes an event's hCalendar and the event organiser's hCard from sharing the URL in a single A element. I propose that the change be undone; and not reintroduced until the implications are more fully understood and widely agreed. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Major change to microformat specs without prior discussion or notification
Thom Shannon wrote: perhaps there was prior discussion and agreement that was just a long time ago? Have you searched the archives or asked Tantek directly? Here's the IRC log regarding the change to the wiki: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-02-07#T010220 I agree with the change - I don't agree with not running it past the microformats-new list. It seems like a fairly far-reaching change/update. It invalidates the need for mfo in hcard, doesn't it? If it were applied to the rest of Microformats, it would invalidate the need for mfo entirely. There are logs - so it would be wrong to say the decision was made in private, it was done on IRC, without notification to microformats-new. -- manu ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Major change to microformat specs without prior discussion or notification
On Feb 7, 2008, at 11:08 AM, Manu Sporny wrote: It invalidates the need for mfo in hcard, doesn't it? If it were applied to the rest of Microformats, it would invalidate the need for mfo entirely. Not exactly. As hober said in IRC: # [02:17:12] hober just to quickly clarify, the opacity parsing rule applies to microformat X with regards to nested instances of X # [02:17:34] hober (as opposed to nested instances of any, even future, microformat) That nested instances of any, even future, microformat is what MFO [1] would cover, but probably never will because piecemeal solutions like this eliminate the various problems MFO would solve all at once. On the topic of whether this should have had wider discussion, I thought it was well established long ago that the properties of an AGENT hCard are not inherited by the container hCard, so I don't see anything really changing here. Was anyone publishing agent hCards and expecting the properties to also apply to the container? That seems very counter-intuitive to me. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/mfo Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Major change to microformat specs without prior discussion or notification
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On 2/7/08 7:14 AM, Thom Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: perhaps there was prior discussion and agreement that was just a long time ago? Have you searched the archives or asked Tantek directly? Yes, this is from a long time ago, may even predate microformats.org. Cite ? It's not a change except in making it more clear. Of course it's a change - look at the behaviour of current publishers and parsers. The hCard AGENT Example has demonstrated this requirement for a long time. Demonstration of a requirement is not demonstration of an existing standard. -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Major change to microformat specs without prior discussion or notification
perhaps there was prior discussion and agreement that was just a long time ago? Have you searched the archives or asked Tantek directly? Andy Mabbett wrote: The change made recently, to the hCard spec: http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsingdiff=nextoldid=25563 affects not only hCard but also other microformats; it has implications for both current parsers and published microformats, but seems to have been made without prior notification or debate. Note, for example, that it precludes an event's hCalendar and the event organiser's hCard from sharing the URL in a single A element. I propose that the change be undone; and not reintroduced until the implications are more fully understood and widely agreed. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Major change to microformat specs without prior discussion or notification
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On the topic of whether this should have had wider discussion, I thought it was well established long ago that the properties of an AGENT hCard are not inherited by the container hCard, so I don't see anything really changing here. The change made today does not refer only to Agent; nor even only to hCard. -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Major change to microformat specs without prior discussion or notification
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Manu Sporny [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Thom Shannon wrote: perhaps there was prior discussion and agreement that was just a long time ago? Have you searched the archives or asked Tantek directly? Here's the IRC log regarding the change to the wiki: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-02-07#T010220 I don't consider that to be adequate period of discussion; and I don't consider that forum alone to be an adequate forum for discussion of such a major issue. What would happen if I implemented one of my outstanding - and nowhere near as harmful - proposals in that way? Why has it not been reverted yet? If I had any faith that this was truly an open community, I would do so myself. I agree with the change I agree with the general principle behind the change. I don't agree with the method of implementation, or with changing the spec in a way which has such wide- reaching implications, and backwards-compatibility issues, with out doing adequate research, and giving ample warning, first. I don't agree with making the change wholesale rather than examining the implications in each type of use, And I don't agree with changing the way several microformats work, by amending the parsing-rules page for one of them. - I don't agree with not running it past the microformats-new list. It's not just about new microformats, but also existing microformats; it should be discussed here, too. It seems like a fairly far-reaching change/update. It invalidates the need for mfo in hcard, doesn't it? If it were applied to the rest of Microformats, it would invalidate the need for mfo entirely. It also break some previously-valid implementations. There are logs - so it would be wrong to say the decision was made in private, it was done on IRC, without notification to microformats-new. Who said it was made in private? -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Major change to microformat specs without prior discussion or notification
On Feb 7, 2008, at 3:03 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: On the topic of whether this should have had wider discussion, I thought it was well established long ago that the properties of an AGENT hCard are not inherited by the container hCard, so I don't see anything really changing here. The change made today does not refer only to Agent; nor even only to hCard. I don't understand why you think that. Everything I'm reading on the change page you linked seems to be specific to hCards within other hCards, and the only relationship defined for such nesting is AGENT. I agree major changes should be discussed more than this was, but I still don't see how this is a change at all, much less major. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Major change to microformat specs without prior discussion or notification
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Scott
Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
On Feb 7, 2008, at 3:03 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
On the topic of whether this should have had wider discussion, I
thought it was well established long ago that the properties of an
AGENT hCard are not inherited by the container hCard, so I don't
see anything really changing here.
The change made today does not refer only to Agent; nor even only to
hCard.
I don't understand why you think that. Everything I'm reading on the
change page you linked seems to be specific to hCards within other
hCards, and the only relationship defined for such nesting is AGENT.
I agree major changes should be discussed more than this was, but I
still don't see how this is a change at all, much less major.
http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsingcurid=1121diff=25580oldid=25563rcid=39352
(aka http://tinyurl.com/3e358a)
added:
Similarly, parsers should treat nested [[hCalendar]],
[[hReview]], [[hResume]] [[xFolk]] in the same way, properties
inside them {{must}} only apply to the nested microformat, not
to the containing microformat.
All references below to inside the hCard, within the contents
of the hCard, and similar phrasing {{must}} be interpreted with
taking this nesting rule into account.
--
Andy Mabbett
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Re: [uf-discuss] Major change to microformat specs without prior discussion or notification
On Feb 7, 2008, at 5:11 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
added:
Similarly, parsers should treat nested [[hCalendar]],
[[hReview]], [[hResume]] [[xFolk]] in the same way, properties
inside them {{must}} only apply to the nested microformat, not
to the containing microformat.
All references below to inside the hCard, within the
contents
of the hCard, and similar phrasing {{must}} be interpreted
with
taking this nesting rule into account.
Aha, I totally missed that part when looking at the change log twice.
I'm not clear on the intended scope of this rule, but it's certainly
broader than I mistakenly suggested earlier.
Peace,
Scott
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