'date accessed' in bibtex (was Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress)
I noticed that 'accessed date' wasn't discussed in the resulting thread here.
As far as I know, it doesn't map to any 'official' field in BibTeX.*
It is perfectly fine to include it as a new field: 'accessed-date' or
something:
@misc{aslbp:2005,
title={A short-lived blog post},
accessed-date= {11/2005},
...}
If I wanted to display it in my citations list using bibtex and the
style files I've used, I'd put it in the 'note' field like this:
note={accessed on 11/2005}.
I'd prefer the 'accessed-date' solution, because it's more meaningful.
-mike
* meaning I'm not aware of any common style files that use it. There
could be plenty that aren't common or I haven't seen...
On 11/13/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Also, i have wiki-fied several citation examples from a previous
email, with accessed date. I have not updated any implied-schemas to
reflect any changes yet. I haven't outputted the accessed date into
BibTeX, RIS or Dublin Core because i don't know what field they equate
too? Alot of this will get flushed out when we start building examples
and tests.
All input is welcomed.
Thanks,
-brian
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research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
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Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/16/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ross Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes If you can't grab total number of pages, does your plan of absolute bird book aggregation fail miserably? I'm not sure what you think can be achieved by such an asinine comment. I'm going to challenge you here, Andy, because this is yet another time (e.g. not the first) when I think you're stepping over the line. You're being hostile, and I don't think it's appropriate for productive discussion. Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: hCite Transformations Test (was Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress)
Thanks for that, we are certainly going to need many, many test cases.
Once our HG system is back-up and working, i will be compiling lots of
examples, so please do keep coding-up some examples.
On 11/17/06, Jeremy Boggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
For some reason, when I do a transformation, I get the author name
for both TITLE and AUTHOR when I put the author first in the markup,
like so:
...
I'm assuming this has something to do with the multiple FNs.
--- correct, at the moment we are using class=fn for the title. It
is currently looking for the first instance of 'fn', in at least on of
your cases it was the fn inside author - it's not a big it's feature
:) How to actually mark-up titles is still an open issue, but i don't
want to go there yet.
It gets the publisher's name OK too, but not the publisher location.
I may have these coded incorrectly, but will be glad to make any
corrections.
You do have a class=location, but at the moment the XSLTs are
looking for location to be a child of an 'adr' element. So if you were
to add:
div class=publisher vcard
div class=adr
span class=localityIthaca/span,
abbr title=New York class=regionNY/abbr:
span class=fnCornell University Press/span
/div
/div
I also plan to put up more examples of other types of
publications, if that is helpful.
--- that would be great! the other thing that would help is expected
output you can certailny mark-up the data with LOADS of extras, like
authors email address, publishers email, etc. but what is the expected
output for various formats. Some of the hCite data will be lost in
conversion - it is possible to add loads of data about a publisher,
but if there is no corresponding Publisher-Email {} in BibTeX then
it is lost, where as in Dublin Core it is preserved (this isn't
something you need to really worry about), but if there is both an
HTML file and a .bib file, it helps for me to compare my XSLT output
with what you expected to be decoded. Make sense?
Thanks,
-brian
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Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 17, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: I'm going to challenge you here, Andy, because this is yet another time (e.g. not the first) when I think you're stepping over the line. You're being hostile, and I don't think it's appropriate for productive discussion. I agree. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On 11/16/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ross Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes If you can't grab total number of pages, does your plan of absolute bird book aggregation fail miserably? I'm not sure what you think can be achieved by such an asinine comment. I'm going to challenge you here, Andy, because this is yet another time (e.g. not the first) when I think you're stepping over the line. You're being hostile, and I don't think it's appropriate for productive discussion. You appear to have mis-typed Ross. HTH. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeremy Boggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes the total number of pages in a cited article, book-chapter, or other section of a publication Whether I paraphrase a section on page 4 of Brian's _Using Microformats_ book, or get a direct quote from that page, I would use: (Suda, 2006: 4) or Brian Suda, _Using Microformats_ (2006), 4. Note that I'm using section to mean a discrete chapter , article or similar discrete sib-division, not just a bit of an article. I would also add to this list: the page run (e.g. 1-41) of a cited article, book section, or other section of a publication. Which is different from the total number of pages in an article. and which I included, as: the page run (e.g. 3-4, 6, 8) of a cited section [other points noted] -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes A page in that context is simply not the same as a page in a full bibliographic entry. You'd have to call it cited-pages or some such. It seems to me that the following properties might be recorded: the total number of pages in a publication (be that a book, magazine, thesis, etc.) the total number of pages in a publication series (be that a set of books, a year's worth of magazines, etc.) the total number of pages in a cited article, book-chapter, or other section of a publication the unique single page of a cited section the start page of a cited section the end page of a cited section the page run (e.g. 3-4, 6, 8) of a cited section the unique single page of a quotation the start page of a quotation the end page of a quotation the page run (e.g. 3-4, 6, 8) of a quotation At the very least, if we include some, but not all. of those in hCite, we should name them in such a way as to make it possible, preferably simple, to include the others in future. Presumably, existing citation standards have already addressed the issues of page number categories? -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes So, if page count is out of the scope of hCite, and if it turns out (from my observation about media-info) that it doesn't fit into the media-info format, would page count just not be marked up at all? What exactly would we gain from this markup in terms of functionality? The ability to scrape pages listing books, and use the results to build a page like: http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/biblio/warwks.htm -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
Again, and I don't mean to sound dismissal: What does the inclusion of 'total number of pages' grant you here? If you can't grab total number of pages, does your plan of absolute bird book aggregation fail miserably? It seems to me that the citation aggregator would be/could be doing something useful with the citation that it has to get the user to a place where total number of pages could be learned. Knowing the full number of pages in a work brings you really nowhere closer to actually 'getting' the cited work in question. That, in my mind, is the complete 'point' and 'scope' of a citation. To help people who are looking for the work that is being mentioned to locate it for themselves, whether that be hunting them down manually (via the traditionial APA, MLA, Chicago styles) or by machine (through OpenURL). -Ross. On 11/16/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes So, if page count is out of the scope of hCite, and if it turns out (from my observation about media-info) that it doesn't fit into the media-info format, would page count just not be marked up at all? What exactly would we gain from this markup in terms of functionality? The ability to scrape pages listing books, and use the results to build a page like: http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/biblio/warwks.htm -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ross Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes If you can't grab total number of pages, does your plan of absolute bird book aggregation fail miserably? I'm not sure what you think can be achieved by such an asinine comment. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
Andy Mabbett wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ross Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes If you can't grab total number of pages, does your plan of absolute bird book aggregation fail miserably? I'm not sure what you think can be achieved by such an asinine comment. I think the question is whether you're already integrating other data, such as images of book covers, from other sources, or whether *all* the data about the book needs to be in the citation. Personally, I think having as much information as possible is a good thing. This is most important for 'self' hCitations, less so for 'bibliography' hCitations, where you just need enough information to identify the cited work. alf. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/16/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure what you think can be achieved by such an asinine comment. Look, we all have our use cases. All I'm asking is that if total number of pages is omitted, are your hopes dashed? My use case, OpenURL linking, has fairly specific (and, honestly, arbitrary) requirements. ISxN (or, if not available, journal/book title), volume, year. If there's a DOI, then we're golden. Honestly, the more metadata the merrier. But I think inclusion of more metadata elements than absolutely necessary will be a turn off. -Ross. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 16, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: It seems to me that the following properties might be recorded: This is a nice list, Andy. Thanks! the total number of pages in a publication (be that a book, magazine, thesis, etc.) the total number of pages in a publication series (be that a set of books, a year's worth of magazines, etc.) the total number of pages in a cited article, book-chapter, or other section of a publication I've only seen total number of pages listed for books, but if we do end up including that for books, I don't see why we couldn't also include it for other kinds of publications. the unique single page of a cited section the start page of a cited section the end page of a cited section the page run (e.g. 3-4, 6, 8) of a cited section the unique single page of a quotation the start page of a quotation the end page of a quotation the page run (e.g. 3-4, 6, 8) of a quotation It seems like these sections would go together well. That is, a cited section and a cited quotation would involve pretty much the same reference structure. Whether I paraphrase a section on page 4 of Brian's _Using Microformats_ book, or get a direct quote from that page, I would use: (Suda, 2006: 4) or Brian Suda, _Using Microformats_ (2006), 4. or some variation of that. Citation standards don't differentiate by what specifically is being cited (paraphrased section or direct quote)...at least the standards that I'm aware of. I would also add to this list: the page run (e.g. 1-41) of a cited article, book section, or other section of a publication. Which is different from the total number of pages in an article. At the very least, if we include some, but not all. of those in hCite, we should name them in such a way as to make it possible, preferably simple, to include the others in future. This seems reasonable. using the abbr class=pages title=20-3020 to 30/abbr model seems to work well. Maybe differentiating how pages are being used shouldn't be done in the code wrapped immediately around the pages, but in the container in which the pages are listed. So for marking up a work that includes all the pages: div class=bibliography div class=hciteJohn Doe, Lorem Ipsum, abbr title=20-30 class=pages20-30/abbr/div div class=hciteJane Doe, _Dolor Sit Amet_ abbr title=455 class=pages455/abbrPp./div /div Parsers would know that, because HCITE is inside bibliography container, it is listing all the pages in a publication. For a book, pages would refer to the total number of pages. In contrast, specifying a specific page in a work: div class=citation div class=hciteJohn Doe, Lorem Ipsum, abbr title=20-23 class=pages20-23/abbr/div div class=hciteJane Doe, _Dolor Sit Amet_ abbr title=320 class=pages320/abbr/div /div Parsers would know that, because an HCITE is inside a citation container, it is listing only those pages being cited, and not the entirety of the work. And perhaps that hcite that only refers to specific pages could somehow be connected to the bibliography hcite of the same publication. Bibliography and citation may not be the best terms or most flexible, but it makes sense to me to put the hCite in a specific context (bibliography, footnotes/endnotes, etc...) and go from there. Maybe this is too complicatedThoughts? Another option might be to specify, inside the class attribute with pages, the kind of pages listing it is: Specific pages cited: div class=hciteJohn Doe, Lorem Ipsum, abbr title=20-23 class=pages cited20-23/abbr/div Listing of all pages in a work: div class=hciteJohn Doe, Lorem Ipsum, abbr title=20-30 class=pages all20-30/abbr/div Saying that the work is x pages long: div class=hciteJohn Doe, _Lorem Ipsum_ abbr title=10 class=pages total10/abbr/div These may not be the best class names either, and also too complicatedThoughts? Best, Jeremy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 16, 2006, at 6:37 PM, Ross Singer wrote: Honestly, the more metadata the merrier. But I think inclusion of more metadata elements than absolutely necessary will be a turn off. Exactly. We'd all like more structured data on the web. But creating structures for data doesn't always lead to more structured data. Sometimes it leads to less, because between the structure and the data is publishers, who we have to convince to apply the structures to the data. That's why we target the the most common (e.g. 80%) use cases. It's nothing personal against hYourFavoriteDataType. And the data isn't going anywhere, so whatever we don't microformat today can always be microformatted tomorrow. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
hCite Transformations Test (was Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress)
On Nov 13, 2006, at 11:39 AM, Brian Suda wrote: This is the new home for all the citation transformations: http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hcite/ Thanks Brian. I've marked up some book examples at: http://clioweb.org/hcitations.php For some reason, when I do a transformation, I get the author name for both TITLE and AUTHOR when I put the author first in the markup, like so: div class=hcite book span class=author vcard span class=fnRoy Rosenzweig/span /span, span class=fnThe Park and the People: A History of Central Park/span. span class=publisher vcard span class=localityIthaca/span, abbr title=New York class=regionNY/abbr: span class=fnCornell University Press/span /span, 1998. /div The parser associated the correct TITLE and AUTHOR, however, if I put the publication's title first, then the author name: div class=hcite book span class=fnThe Park and the People: A History of Central Park/span. span class=author vcard span class=fnRoy Rosenzweig/span /span. span class=publisher vcard span class=localityIthaca/span, abbr title=New York class=regionNY/abbr: span class=fnCornell University Press/span /span, 1998. /div I'm assuming this has something to do with the multiple FNs. It gets the publisher's name OK too, but not the publisher location. I may have these coded incorrectly, but will be glad to make any corrections. I also plan to put up more examples of other types of publications, if that is helpful. Best, Jeremy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/15/06, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... If I were to quote something specific, or refer to a specific idea or statement in a journal article on page 40, I would use some variation of the following: John Doe, Lorem Ipsum Dolor, _Sit Amet_ vol. 81, no. 3 (2000), 40. If, however, I would want to refer to the entire article, I would use the following: John Doe, Lorem Ipsum Dolor, _Sit Amet_ 81, no.3 (2000), 37-65. I don't see how leaving pages as a simple string can account for this difference. I wouldn't want a parser to say that the article is only one page long, and that it exists only on page 40 of a journal. I think the idea is that the parser isn't saying much of anything about the pages, just that a given string is a textual description of them, and a human reader needs to take it from there. This is kind of tricky though. Jeremy is showing a style common in history, where citations are represented as notes. So in an author-date style, his example might be (Doe, 2000:4). A page in that context is simply not the same as a page in a full bibliographic entry. You'd have to call it cited-pages or some such. ... I'm not really sure offhand how to remedy this, but I'll certainly think about it and offer up whatever I come up with. (I've tended to do that on this list; raise questions without offering much on solutions. My apologies.) Does anyone else have thoughts about this? There are specific formatting rules for page ranges in various formal citation styles, right? Right. Are they clear and consistent enough that we can just adopt one of those for page ranges? Here's a problem: there are different algorithms to collapse page ranges. E.g. 120-129 -- 120-9. Chicago actually lists the rules. ... class=month, etc. markup. And for syntax that doesn't follow a given syntax standard, we could use abbr just like with the date syntax standard, e.g. abbr class=pages title=20-3020 to 30/abbr. +1 Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
I also can't see a compelling case for page counts. They aren't generally used in bibliographies, CVs, OpenURLs -- basically the important cases for markup. The only places I can really see them occurring are bookstore and library catalogs -- do they really need to be included? What purpose would it serve? I would like to make the argument for start-end page, though. If start page is being included, end page seems easy enough, and it could be useful for last mile information retrieval purposes. -Ross. On 11/13/06, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 13, 2006, at 4:58 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: I agree. It doesn't seem to help any of the use cases identified in the wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Use_Cases It does: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation- brainstorming#Buy_a_copy Both Amazon and ABE cite page counts. Sure, but neither allow searching for books by those page counts that I see, so this doesn't seem to help with the stated task: Find the cited work on, for example, Amazon or ABE. Page count still looks out of scope to me for hCite, and closer to the type of information (i.e. file size) being discussed in media-info. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/14/06, Frances Berriman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/14/06, Ross Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The only places I can really see them occurring are bookstore and library catalogs -- do they really need to be included? What purpose would it serve? Academic paper citations require page number references for literature (be that books or journals etc.). Nevermind.. I backtracked. The total number of pages doesn't seem useful! I can't find a decent working example where it's been used either (specifically in a cite, rather than as a listing). -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/14/06, Ross Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The only places I can really see them occurring are bookstore and library catalogs -- do they really need to be included? What purpose would it serve? Academic paper citations require page number references for literature (be that books or journals etc.). -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/13/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes But citation uFs are being recommended for more than pure academic citations - in resumes, for example, where the page count is likely to be far more relevant. I seriously doubt it. That's your prerogative; but foolish. Particularly as it was mentioned just today: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/007103.html I fully accept the argument that hCite might be used for resumes. But that message from Ryan says nothing about page count. Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
They generally require page number -- not number of pages in the book. -Ross. On 11/14/06, Frances Berriman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/14/06, Ross Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The only places I can really see them occurring are bookstore and library catalogs -- do they really need to be included? What purpose would it serve? Academic paper citations require page number references for literature (be that books or journals etc.). -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 13, 2006, at 4:11 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: But I do feel strongly that page count is beyond scope. Do we want to then include ways to encode the length of a CD or a DVD film or an HTML document? I think not, particularly when there are more important issues to worry about. +1 ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 13, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: Page count is only relevant to publishers and book stores (maybe). Page count is also important in academic and non-academic reviews of books, specifically when the review prints the information of the book in question. See the NY Times review of _Ghost Map_ [1] as one example. THE GHOST MAP: The Story of London’s Most Terrifying Epidemic — and How It Changed Science, Cities, and the Modern World. By Steven Johnson. 299 pp. Riverhead Books. $26.95. This is a very common citation format for book reviews. I'd be glad to gather evidence on this if need be. Do we want to then include ways to encode the length of a CD or a DVD film or an HTML document? I think not, particularly when there are more important issues to worry about. Me not knowing what other important issues are aside, I do think we should include ways to encode the length of a CD or DVD...length of films, music, and other audio/video media is included when citing them. That said, the citation-examples page does not include these media.[2] There isn't a standard citation format that I'm aware of that tries to include the length of an HTML document. Then again, I'm only familiar with Chicago-style citations. The Chicago format for citing an online MPEG would be: Weed, A.E. _At the Foot of the Flatiron_. American Mutoscope and boigraph Co., 1903; 2 min, 19 sec.; 35mm; from Library of Congress, _Early Motion Pictures, 1898-1920_. MPEG, http://hdl.loc.gov/ loc.mbrsmi/lcmp002.m2a33981 (accessed November 14, 2006). Lots of different stuff included in this citation: format, length, access date. Could you hCalendar to mark up the access date. My concerns with media-info are outlined below: On Nov 13, 2006, at 10:17 PM, Scott Reynen wrote: Page count still looks out of scope to me for hCite, and closer to the type of information (i.e. file size) being discussed in media- info. The only problem I see with this is that, according to the citation- brainstorming page, there is a significant difference between citation and media-info: media-info describes information about content embedded or inline in the current document whereas citation is a reference to something explicitly external.[3] Especially with the example citation I give above, even though I'm citing an audio- visual source, because its external from my document, I should use hCitation, NOT media-info, at least according to the current definition on the wiki. I do think that page counts should be accounted for, in some way. Whether that way is in hCite or through a redefinition of media-info (or some other options). Thanks, Jeremy Boggs [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/books/review/Quammen.t.html? ref=review [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples [3] http://microformats.org/wiki/citation- brainstorming#Citation_vs._media-info ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/14/06, Jeremy Boggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 13, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: Page count is only relevant to publishers and book stores (maybe). Page count is also important in academic and non-academic reviews of books, specifically when the review prints the information of the book in question. True; I'd forgotten about that. But it's still a fairly narrow kind of use case. Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 14, 2006, at 1:16 PM, Jeremy Boggs wrote: On Nov 14, 2006, at 12:36 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: But it's still a fairly narrow kind of use case. I agree that its a narrow kind of use case, but book reviews are very common, and the structure of a book review is fairly standardized. I'd say it's not a use case at all, as no on has really described how this markup would be used by parsing applications. I've only seen pointers to where it is published. Plain HTML handles the publishing use case just fine, so that's not really a use case for additional microformat markup. Every book review that I've read has included the page count. Granted, I would need to do more research about this to make a more substantiated claim; I'm only familiar with arts/humanities reviews, specifically history books in academic journals. So, if page count is out of the scope of hCite, and if it turns out (from my observation about media-info) that it doesn't fit into the media-info format, would page count just not be marked up at all? What exactly would we gain from this markup in terms of functionality? So, if I'm reviewing a book and want to include the bibliographic information of the book wtih hCite, I would just not mark up page count with any semantic meaning? If it's in a review and it's describing the item you're reviewing, I'd say it belongs in hReview's description field. If there is a need to describe page count more specifically, I'm still not clear what it is. Searching books by page count? Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Scott Reynen wrote: I'd say it's not a use case at all, as no on has really described how this markup would be used by parsing applications. Does the it's to which you're referring, Scott, mean hCite for a reviewed book in general, or marking up page numbers specifically? If it's means hCite for the book in general, I'd say it is a use case, from my understanding of hCite. Especially if I'd like to extract the bibliographic data of a book that is being reviewed. I assume that's how the markup would be used by parsing applications, but I'll leave that question to those with more expertise than I. If it's means markup for page numbers, then I can see your argument. I'm starting to see that page count might be out scope, but I'm still open to it. What exactly would we gain from this markup in terms of functionality? If you're referring to my question about page numbers, perhaps nothing. I'm totally fine with leaving it blank, or not including it within hCitation; I point out reviews as another example of how they're used, so the community could consider it. I only want to make sure that, if in fact page count is out of scope, do we simple ignore it in the markup? My understanding of why page counts exist in book review bibliographic information is that it is a legacy from older problems with knowing which book is the right book, or the book your referring to; I might refer to a version that has, say, 438 pages, but there might be another print run that had, for various reasons, 420 pages. This is so much a problem anymore, so maybe it isn't a problem for hCite. If it's in a review and it's describing the item you're reviewing, I'd say it belongs in hReview's description field. I completely agree. From my understanding, that information included inside the DESCRIPTION field in hReview could be marked up with hCitation. hReview isn't, however, listed in the Modularity section of the citation page, though I imagine it could be.[1] Is there a reason why hCite could not be used in a book review marked up in hReview? If there is a need to describe page count more specifically, I'm still not clear what it is. Searching books by page count? If marking up content to make it searchable is the primary purpose of hCitation, then I'd agree that page count is out of scope. This leads me to ask: is this the primary purpose of hCitation to mark up searchable information? I'm not sure that people search solely by other information that is included in hCitation (publisher, location of publisher,volume,edition). Best, Jeremy [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/citation#Modularity ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 13, 2006, at 2:58 PM, Scott Reynen wrote: This might be outside the scope of hCite, but one use case I had in mind requiring specific pages to be parse-able is actually viewing those pages online with a link to something like books.google.com or amazon.com. That would be possible if 10-50 can be understood to mean 10,11,12,13,,48,49,50, but not if it's just a string of five characters with no defined meaning. Ah, this would be quite handy, not only for Google Books, but in other cases in which printed books also have online version available (through many public/university libraries). Best, Jeremy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:57 PM, Jeremy Boggs wrote: On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Scott Reynen wrote: I'd say it's not a use case at all, as no on has really described how this markup would be used by parsing applications. Does the it's to which you're referring, Scott, mean hCite for a reviewed book in general, or marking up page numbers specifically? Neither. I was referring only to page count (which is different than page numbers). I'm starting to see that page count might be out scope, but I'm still open to it. I'm certainly open to it too. I'd just like to see some reason for including additional markup, some way it actually helps us do anything, so we're not just adding markup for markup's sake. What exactly would we gain from this markup in terms of functionality? If you're referring to my question about page numbers, perhaps nothing. I'm totally fine with leaving it blank, or not including it within hCitation; I point out reviews as another example of how they're used, so the community could consider it. I only want to make sure that, if in fact page count is out of scope, do we simple ignore it in the markup? Yes. Nearly every type of microformat published in the wild contains content that isn't part of the microformat's purpose. Parsers just ignore this unrelated content. But it can still be intermingled in the HTML. My understanding of why page counts exist in book review bibliographic information is that it is a legacy from older problems with knowing which book is the right book, or the book your referring to; I might refer to a version that has, say, 438 pages, but there might be another print run that had, for various reasons, 420 pages. This is so much a problem anymore, so maybe it isn't a problem for hCite. If that were a common problem I think it would be a compelling reason to include page counts. But if it's just an edge case, hCite can still be useful to the 80% (or more) cases where page count is irrelevant, and people can still read the page count where it's relevant even if machines can't. If it's in a review and it's describing the item you're reviewing, I'd say it belongs in hReview's description field. I completely agree. From my understanding, that information included inside the DESCRIPTION field in hReview could be marked up with hCitation. hReview isn't, however, listed in the Modularity section of the citation page, though I imagine it could be.[1] Is there a reason why hCite could not be used in a book review marked up in hReview? I don't see any. You have to cite a book before you can review it, right? If there is a need to describe page count more specifically, I'm still not clear what it is. Searching books by page count? If marking up content to make it searchable is the primary purpose of hCitation, then I'd agree that page count is out of scope. That was just a question, not an attempt to declare the scope of hCite. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 13, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Brian Suda wrote: But as Bruce said: start-end pages are not really important, just capture the string pages 10-50. So i think something akin to the first example here will work. One reason why a string might not be useful is capturing a citation for a specific page of a work versus capturing a citation of a work in its entirety. Its one thing to cite a specific quote from page 40 of an article in a journal, and another to cite an entire article that exists on pages 37-65 in a journal. If I were to quote something specific, or refer to a specific idea or statement in a journal article on page 40, I would use some variation of the following: John Doe, Lorem Ipsum Dolor, _Sit Amet_ vol. 81, no. 3 (2000), 40. If, however, I would want to refer to the entire article, I would use the following: John Doe, Lorem Ipsum Dolor, _Sit Amet_ 81, no.3 (2000), 37-65. I don't see how leaving pages as a simple string can account for this difference. I wouldn't want a parser to say that the article is only one page long, and that it exists only on page 40 of a journal. Granted, neither of these citations, in and of themselves, really lets the reader know whether the entire article, or just a portion of it, is being cited. In this case, start-end pages are important. I'm not really sure offhand how to remedy this, but I'll certainly think about it and offer up whatever I come up with. (I've tended to do that on this list; raise questions without offering much on solutions. My apologies.) Does anyone else have thoughts about this? Maybe it would be useful to use the include-pattern in hCite? It seems like it would be helpful to be able to include information on a work in a smaller citation. Given the example above, if I were to add subsequent citations to cite a different page of the same work, I would use something like this: 1. John Doe, Lorem Ipsum Dolor, _Sit Amet_ vol. 81, no. 3 (2000), 40. 2. Doe, 54. There are variations on a theme for this, across disciplines and citation standards. Would the include-object be useful to include specific information from the first citation to be used in the second citation? Or more broadly, would the include-object be helpful in connecting multiple citations of the same work to the more complete bibliographic information of a work? It also might be useful for the problem I illustrated above, with citing on a specific portion of a work versus citing a work in its entirety. Maybe use the include-object to include the start-end pages of a work, while showing the specific page being cited? I can come up with some example markup, if it is valid for hCite and folks think it would be useful. Best, Jeremy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 14, 2006, at 7:59 PM, Scott Reynen wrote: Does the it's to which you're referring, Scott, mean hCite for a reviewed book in general, or marking up page numbers specifically? Neither. I was referring only to page count (which is different than page numbers). Good catch; I meant page count, but didn't actually type that, there and a few other places in my email. My bad. Yes. Nearly every type of microformat published in the wild contains content that isn't part of the microformat's purpose. Parsers just ignore this unrelated content. But it can still be intermingled in the HTML. Awesome, thanks! My understanding of why page counts exist in book review bibliographic information is that it is a legacy from older problems with knowing which book is the right book, or the book your referring to; I might refer to a version that has, say, 438 pages, but there might be another print run that had, for various reasons, 420 pages. This is so much a problem anymore, so maybe it isn't a problem for hCite. If that were a common problem I think it would be a compelling reason to include page counts. But if it's just an edge case, hCite can still be useful to the 80% (or more) cases where page count is irrelevant, and people can still read the page count where it's relevant even if machines can't. This makes sense. I don't think it is anymore, especially with the prominence of editions and versions of printed works. From my understanding, keeping page counts has been simply a legacy of that problem. It might also serve a purpose for book stores trying to determine how much shelf space they need for certain books, but this is merely speculation on my part. In any case, neither is really a good argument for including page counts in hCite. Is there a reason why hCite could not be used in a book review marked up in hReview? I don't see any. You have to cite a book before you can review it, right? Quite true; you do have to include the bibliographic information before you can review it, at least in a standard academic review. I guess, then, that we should at some point add hCitation to the review wiki page. I do think that, if we decide that this is out of the scope of hCite, it would be good to include on the wiki somewhere some explanation of why certain bibliographic/citation elements are left out of hCite. Especially for folks who regularly write out references and citations and are just picking up on microformats; folks like me:) Best, Jeremy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 14, 2006, at 8:26 PM, Jeremy Boggs wrote: On Nov 13, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Brian Suda wrote: But as Bruce said: start-end pages are not really important, just capture the string pages 10-50. So i think something akin to the first example here will work. One reason why a string might not be useful is capturing a citation for a specific page of a work versus capturing a citation of a work in its entirety. Its one thing to cite a specific quote from page 40 of an article in a journal, and another to cite an entire article that exists on pages 37-65 in a journal. If I were to quote something specific, or refer to a specific idea or statement in a journal article on page 40, I would use some variation of the following: John Doe, Lorem Ipsum Dolor, _Sit Amet_ vol. 81, no. 3 (2000), 40. If, however, I would want to refer to the entire article, I would use the following: John Doe, Lorem Ipsum Dolor, _Sit Amet_ 81, no.3 (2000), 37-65. I don't see how leaving pages as a simple string can account for this difference. I wouldn't want a parser to say that the article is only one page long, and that it exists only on page 40 of a journal. I think the idea is that the parser isn't saying much of anything about the pages, just that a given string is a textual description of them, and a human reader needs to take it from there. Granted, neither of these citations, in and of themselves, really lets the reader know whether the entire article, or just a portion of it, is being cited. In this case, start-end pages are important. I think the reader can read that just as well in HTML as in any academic citation on paper. But a machine parser can't, or at least we haven't determined any rules by which a machine parser could. I'm not really sure offhand how to remedy this, but I'll certainly think about it and offer up whatever I come up with. (I've tended to do that on this list; raise questions without offering much on solutions. My apologies.) Does anyone else have thoughts about this? There are specific formatting rules for page ranges in various formal citation styles, right? Are they clear and consistent enough that we can just adopt one of those for page ranges? For example, can we say that any string matching the format AA-BB means page AA, page BB, and all pages in between? And any string matching the format A, B, C means the pages A, B, and C? It's been a while since I wrote a formal citation, but I remember there were syntax rules for this sort of thing, so how about just adopting those rules instead of adding markup? That seems similar to adopting the syntax rules for ISO 8601 instead of adding additional class=year, class=month, etc. markup. And for syntax that doesn't follow a given syntax standard, we could use abbr just like with the date syntax standard, e.g. abbr class=pages title=20-3020 to 30/abbr. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
I’ve been working on my resume this weekend, and have been slopping together an hCite-ish beast for my publications. One thing about type: I don't think this should be—or at least should have to be—visible data. In most use cases that I can think of: a blogger linking to another blog, a list of citations at the end of a scholarly article, citation-hunting through a database, etc. The difference between “article,” “book,” “incollection” and “conference” are either not relevant or are implied by the types of data that the citation contains. I’d much prefer to see: cite class=article citation.../cite Than cite class=citationspan class=typeArticle/span: .../ cite I’ll check over the wiki and make sure my citations match the proposal, and be sure to post problems questions. -- Ryan http://RyanCannon.com On Nov 13, 2006, at 11:40 AM, microformats-discuss- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:39:44 + From: Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress ... 2) one of the manditory properties across several different citation formats is TYPE. Is this a Book, Journal entry, Thesis, Video, etc. Usually and enumerated list of values. The issue is that EVERYONE does it differently... so should hCite have an enumerated list of types such as Thesis and that maps to bibTeX mastersthesis and RIS THES or should that be something transforming apps handle. I'm not sure how to handle this (i'd prefer not to use enumerated lists of possible values) but if we allow open values, and i write span class=typeThesis/span and that gets converted to a citation format, it will fail most of the formats because the string Thesis is not a valid type. I also think it is silly then to do span class=typeTHES/span and then be valid for only one format. This is where a hard-coded list of values in hCite would help, hCite's thesis can be interpreted into various formats' TYPE values - although i don't like that idea, but don't have any other suggestions except to ignore it and let the implementor figure it out? Any comments? ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/13/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There have been a few hiccups that i am starting to uncover - so any guidance is welcomed. 1) The term Pages i think that actually has two meanings which i have confused in the implied schema. The first being This book is 45 pages long which is metadata about the book, and is in the realm of media-info microformat. Then there is this sites pages 43-45 meaning a location. So now we need figure out what we are to do? does the first metadata become span class=page-count45/span and the citation stay pages or do we have start-page and end-page or something else? Some systems use pages as a string 43-45 others have it broken out into SP (start page) 43 EP (end page) 45. I'm not sure how they handle references in something like a newspaper where the article starts on page 1 and then jumps to page 43... that is not start-end, but a list of pages. Then that leads to our singularization of plural terms. In vCard it is categories (plural) but we use category singular and just let you have multiple instances... can pages go the same way? the first instance of class=page is the start page, and the last instance if the last page? Any suggestions? Way to make my brain ache... If I'm understanding you right (and I'm thinking on the spot), you want to say that you're referencing pages W, X and Y out of Z. Surely Pages 43 - 45 is an abbreviated way of saying this comes from pages 43, 44 and 45 of a 100 page long book. Treating it as an abbreviation also solves the newspaper issue, since you'd be saying this comes from page 1 and 14 of a 50 page newpaper. No? Silly probably. I was just thinking about Jeremy Keith's this Thursday example of an abbreviation (being really a short hand for this Thursday's full date). Listing pages individually, out of a total number of pages, rather than as a range, makes total sense to me. So span class=page14/span, span class=page16/span of span class=category50/span. is fine. Start-page and end-page is a bit too restrictive imho. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/13/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) The term Pages i think that actually has two meanings which i have confused in the implied schema. The first being This book is 45 pages long which is metadata about the book, and is in the realm of media-info microformat. Then there is this sites pages 43-45 meaning a location. So now we need figure out what we are to do? Pages to indicate the length of a book should be beyond scope. It's not relevant to citations. Beyond that, there are two kinds of locators of this sort: 1) to indicate the place of an item within a larger container 2) so-called point locators which indicate specific pages/paragraphs/etc. within a cited item; typically included in citations (Doe, 1999, p12). For the best balance of simplicity and generality, I'd suggest just pages. Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages can be discontinuous. 2) one of the manditory properties across several different citation formats is TYPE. Is this a Book, Journal entry, Thesis, Video, etc. Usually and enumerated list of values. The issue is that EVERYONE does it differently... And from my own experience, this is not at all easy to do. I've been talking about this issue of late with the Zotero guys, because every week people keep asking for more types on their forums. But if you just keep adding them without some kind of design logic -- and a mapping to the formatting system and its type logic -- you end up with a mess. So, I do think a list is important, but I suggest that this not be the focus for hCite 1.0, and maybe see if we can find some agreement as a separate effort. Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In terms of type... How important is that designation? If you have an open-ended list, isn't that similar to a tag or is there real consequence to its type-designation? Chris On 11/13/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had a few free cycles this last week so i have been making some head-way with the citation microformat. I took some to to re-organize the XSLT code, so now it should be alot easier to create new transformations. So i have added Dublin Core and RIS to possible output types. This is the new home for all the citation transformations: http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hcite/ Once we get our version system setup for a citation test suite, i will be creating HTML and cite-specific formats and will need some feedback on other things to check-in (anyone else is more than welcome to create some tests too *hint* *hint* :) ). There have been a few hiccups that i am starting to uncover - so any guidance is welcomed. 1) The term Pages i think that actually has two meanings which i have confused in the implied schema. The first being This book is 45 pages long which is metadata about the book, and is in the realm of media-info microformat. Then there is this sites pages 43-45 meaning a location. So now we need figure out what we are to do? does the first metadata become span class=page-count45/span and the citation stay pages or do we have start-page and end-page or something else? Some systems use pages as a string 43-45 others have it broken out into SP (start page) 43 EP (end page) 45. I'm not sure how they handle references in something like a newspaper where the article starts on page 1 and then jumps to page 43... that is not start-end, but a list of pages. Then that leads to our singularization of plural terms. In vCard it is categories (plural) but we use category singular and just let you have multiple instances... can pages go the same way? the first instance of class=page is the start page, and the last instance if the last page? Any suggestions? 2) one of the manditory properties across several different citation formats is TYPE. Is this a Book, Journal entry, Thesis, Video, etc. Usually and enumerated list of values. The issue is that EVERYONE does it differently... so should hCite have an enumerated list of types such as Thesis and that maps to bibTeX mastersthesis and RIS THES or should that be something transforming apps handle. I'm not sure how to handle this (i'd prefer not to use enumerated lists of possible values) but if we allow open values, and i write span class=typeThesis/span and that gets converted to a citation format, it will fail most of the formats because the string Thesis is not a valid type. I also think it is silly then to do span class=typeTHES/span and then be valid for only one format. This is where a hard-coded list of values in hCite would help, hCite's thesis can be interpreted into various formats' TYPE values - although i don't like that idea, but don't have any other suggestions except to ignore it and let the implementor figure it out? Any comments? Also, i have wiki-fied several citation examples from a previous email, with accessed date. I have not updated any implied-schemas to reflect any changes yet. I haven't outputted the accessed date into BibTeX, RIS or Dublin Core because i don't know what field they equate too? Alot of this will get flushed out when we start building examples and tests. All input is welcomed. Thanks, -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable[X] ask first [ ] private ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 13, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: For the best balance of simplicity and generality, I'd suggest just pages. Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages can be discontinuous. So what would that look like in markup for, say, pages 10-50? We don't have to list every single page, do we? Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes There have been a few hiccups that i am starting to uncover - so any guidance is welcomed. I'm not sure how they handle references in something like a newspaper where the article starts on page 1 and then jumps to page 43... that is not start-end, but a list of pages. COinS (http://ocoins.info/cobgbook.html; http://ocoins.info/cobg.html) handles that, as a character string. Consider this possible solution: span class=pages span class=start-page45/span, 46, 48, span class=end-page50/span /span A single- page article could be: span class=pages start-page end-page45/span or the absence of a pages class could be taken to imply that the article runs continuously from the start page to the end page. Remember that page numbers might not be numerical, but (in the case, say, of an introduction or preface) use roman numerals or some other scheme (COinS, op. cit.). I haven't outputted the accessed date pet peeve There's no such word as outputted. Have you ever putted something in a place, or did you just put it there? /pp -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
Well, the mark-up might look something like: span class=pagespages 10-50/span or pages span class=pages10-50/span or (another idea, which doesn't mean much any more) was pages span class=page10/span-span class=page50/span But as Bruce said: start-end pages are not really important, just capture the string pages 10-50. So i think something akin to the first example here will work. -brian On 11/13/06, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 13, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: For the best balance of simplicity and generality, I'd suggest just pages. Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages can be discontinuous. So what would that look like in markup for, say, pages 10-50? We don't have to list every single page, do we? Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/13/06, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In terms of type... How important is that designation? If you have an open-ended list, isn't that similar to a tag or is there real consequence to its type-designation? It's very important for conversion into some formats (BibTeX, RIS, etc.), and sort of important too for formatting in the sense the there are different conventions (rules) for formatting different kinds of references. Note, though, that as someone who designed both a citation style language and code to format citations, I think sometimes people get too distracted by type. Often times, formatting rules are more about other details than type. For example, someone on the Zotero forums recently claimed edited books get formatted differently than books. Well, not really. What gets formatted differently are editors and authors (the former gets a role label added to it). Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Frances Berriman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Surely Pages 43 - 45 is an abbreviated way of saying this comes from pages 43, 44 and 45 of a 100 page long book. How does that differ from pages 43-45 of a 48 page book, or a 480 page book? -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/13/06, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 13, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: For the best balance of simplicity and generality, I'd suggest just pages. Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages can be discontinuous. So what would that look like in markup for, say, pages 10-50? We don't have to list every single page, do we? Sometimes you have periodical articles that span multiple discontinuous pages, and they all get included; e.g. 1-5, 9. OTOH, legal citations typically list only the first page. Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/13/06, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In terms of type... How important is that designation? If you have an open-ended list, isn't that similar to a tag or is there real consequence to its type-designation? Well, TYPE seems to be pretty important, it is manditory by (atleast) RIS and BibTeX so far. Both of those have enumerated lists of possible values, which there duplicate values (e.g. Book, Thesis, etc.) but they use different terms (e.g. mastersthesis or THES) so what gets used for the hCite type? or do we create our own list that maps to the 80% of common types. We could use tags, but then we are still picking out the tag portion as the TYPE value. You could do that already now with Keywords in hCite and Skills in hResume and Categories in hCard. And the value that gets extracted would need to still have to match to some sort of logical citation type. I ate a a href=/tags/watermellon rel=tag class=typewatermellon/a yesterday. I'm not sure how that helps us? whereas: This is a a href=/tags/book rel=tag class=typebook/a i read yesterday. That helps on two fronts, #1 we have an established type (book) and #2 we get bonus points for making it a tag so now we can search on all books! That's great for a blog, but that tag space on Amazon wouldn't really narrow things down much :) -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Pages to indicate the length of a book should be beyond scope. It's not relevant to citations. I disagree, not least because people often cite a whole book, rather than part of it. For the best balance of simplicity and generality, I'd suggest just pages. Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages can be discontinuous. But what about inter-operability with other standards? -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 13, 2006, at 1:20 PM, Brian Suda wrote: Well, the mark-up might look something like: span class=pagespages 10-50/span or pages span class=pages10-50/span or (another idea, which doesn't mean much any more) was pages span class=page10/span-span class=page50/span But as Bruce said: start-end pages are not really important, just capture the string pages 10-50. So i think something akin to the first example here will work. Are we talking about treating that string as a defined format that will allow it to be parsed into specific pages, or just as a string? This might be outside the scope of hCite, but one use case I had in mind requiring specific pages to be parse-able is actually viewing those pages online with a link to something like books.google.com or amazon.com. That would be possible if 10-50 can be understood to mean 10,11,12,13,,48,49,50, but not if it's just a string of five characters with no defined meaning. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/13/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Pages to indicate the length of a book should be beyond scope. It's not relevant to citations. I disagree, not least because people often cite a whole book, rather than part of it. Which is exactly why the length of the book is irrelevant. The only time you include pages in a citation is if you are referring to a section within a book (typically a chapter), and the purpose there is simply to help you find it. Page count does nothing to help you with that, and for that reason they are never included in citations in my experience. Page count is only relevant to publishers and book stores (maybe). For the best balance of simplicity and generality, I'd suggest just pages. Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages can be discontinuous. But what about inter-operability with other standards? Which ones? There is no standard way to do this; some use start/end and others a single property. Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Are we talking about treating that string as a defined format that will allow it to be parsed into specific pages, or just as a string? This might be outside the scope of hCite, but one use case I had in mind requiring specific pages to be parse-able is actually viewing those pages online with a link to something like books.google.com or amazon.com. That would be possible if 10-50 can be understood to mean 10,11,12,13,,48,49,50, but not if it's just a string of five characters with no defined meaning. In that case, the start page will surely be the most relevant? -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On 11/13/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Pages to indicate the length of a book should be beyond scope. It's not relevant to citations. I disagree, not least because people often cite a whole book, rather than part of it. Which is exactly why the length of the book is irrelevant. No it isn't. Note not least. The only time you include pages in a citation is if you are referring to a section within a book (typically a chapter), and the purpose there is simply to help you find it. Page count does nothing to help you with that, and for that reason they are never included in citations in my experience. But citation uFs are being recommended for more than pure academic citations - in resumes, for example, where the page count is likely to be far more relevant. Page count is only relevant to publishers and book stores (maybe). That's an assertion for which you can provide no evidence. Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages can be discontinuous. But what about inter-operability with other standards? Which ones? There is no standard way to do this; Hence my deliberate use of the plural. some use start/end and others a single property. So why not allow both to be marked up? -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On 11/13/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But citation uFs are being recommended for more than pure academic citations - in resumes, for example, where the page count is likely to be far more relevant. I seriously doubt it. I certainly wouldn't include it (and don't) in my CV. Page count is only relevant to publishers and book stores (maybe). That's an assertion for which you can provide no evidence. Likewise. Look, I don't have time to track down a heap of evidence for you; either accept my argument, or don't. ... some use start/end and others a single property. So why not allow both to be marked up? I'm really not that invested in this. I gave my suggestion for the best solution. You're entitled to your's. Either way is more-or-less fine by me. But I do feel strongly that page count is beyond scope. Do we want to then include ways to encode the length of a CD or a DVD film or an HTML document? I think not, particularly when there are more important issues to worry about. Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes But citation uFs are being recommended for more than pure academic citations - in resumes, for example, where the page count is likely to be far more relevant. I seriously doubt it. That's your prerogative; but foolish. Particularly as it was mentioned just today: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/007103.html I certainly wouldn't include it (and don't) in my CV. And do you also think that everyone does as you do? Page count is only relevant to publishers and book stores (maybe). That's an assertion for which you can provide no evidence. Likewise. Look, I don't have time to track down a heap of evidence for you; I didn't say that you hadn't provided evidence; I didn't say that you wouldn't provide evidence; I didn't even ask you to provide evidence. I pointed out that you CANNOT provide evidence. either accept my argument, or don't. It's not an argument, merely an unfounded assertion. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 13, 2006, at 2:30 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: In that case, the start page will surely be the most relevant? Yes. On Nov 13, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: But I do feel strongly that page count is beyond scope. I agree. It doesn't seem to help any of the use cases identified in the wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Use_Cases I'm sure there are contexts in which page count would be helpful, but those seem to relate more to the media-info problem of distinguishing between multiple means of publishing the same content: http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info-brainstorming#The_Problem As always, I look forward to clear explanations of where I might be mistaken. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes But I do feel strongly that page count is beyond scope. I agree. It doesn't seem to help any of the use cases identified in the wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Use_Cases It does: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Buy_a_copy Both Amazon and ABE cite page counts. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
On Nov 13, 2006, at 4:58 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: I agree. It doesn't seem to help any of the use cases identified in the wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Use_Cases It does: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation- brainstorming#Buy_a_copy Both Amazon and ABE cite page counts. Sure, but neither allow searching for books by those page counts that I see, so this doesn't seem to help with the stated task: Find the cited work on, for example, Amazon or ABE. Page count still looks out of scope to me for hCite, and closer to the type of information (i.e. file size) being discussed in media-info. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
