Re: It's not about the money
On Mon, Mar 27, 2006 at 09:13:58PM +0200, chefren wrote: > On 03/26/06 17:35, frantisek holop wrote: > > Talking about arrogance: > > >everybody seems to be happy about Theo's style > > .. > > >the problem mr de Raadt fails to see is, > > What's his name, Theo or "mr de Raadt"? Mr. de Raadt if you're nasty. Definately not Baby...
Re: It's not about the money
On 03/26/06 17:35, frantisek holop wrote: Talking about arrogance: everybody seems to be happy about Theo's style .. the problem mr de Raadt fails to see is, What's his name, Theo or "mr de Raadt"? +++chefren
Re: It's not about the money
On 03/26/06 07:45, Travers Buda wrote: They have no time for anything but excelence. Clueless, money is needed because it =isn't= excellent at all. Lots of people are too religious here, OpenBSD is neither a religion nor even a cult and shouldn't be one too. The truth is just that OpenBSD developers are seriously doing their best to make software secure and reliable. Nothing more and nothing less. And even some of the developers are somewhat religious, there is no difference between paying for CD or FTP distribution. The project needs a new motor, CD is out, FTP obviously in. KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid! +++chefren
Re: It's not about the money
hmm, on Sat, Mar 25, 2006 at 02:33:46PM -0800, Aaron Glenn said that > Have you ever read [EMAIL PROTECTED] I mean actually read it? The only people > that get slammed are those that deserve it. You're supposed to do your so who decides who deserves it and who doesn't? everybody seems to be happy about Theo's style until they actually get burnt by it. the problem mr de Raadt fails to see is, that he is not just a developer working on these projects in the background who can afford bad mouthing anyone he wants to. he is the _front_ man. we, the community actually get judged also by the leader of the project. > These days common sense and directness passes as arrogance. The *real* common sense and directness? you obviously have never got a private mail from mr de Raadt. the thread i started was about nothing else than directness. that one cannot look down on people and then ask for their money without a blink of an eye. does not work like that in the real world. it was not about handholding, misc@ harshness, whining for features. the only feature i have asked for on this mailing list for the last couple of years was t-shirts with the stuff in the front, not the back. flaming one's loayal user base just because they don't like his filthy mouth is a great way to thank for the donations. i will donate some soap to wash his mouth. -f -- history doesn't repeat itself. historians do.
Re: It's not about the money
No Theo, I've never asked anyone here to write something for me. I tend to do my own coding. When I saw you were in trouble back then I simply offered to see if I could help because I like your product. I know, it was ignorant of me. I should have known better. And you're quite right these threads have really not done anything for anyone, except maybe give some a bit more insight into human follyness. >"Altruism is a sham. Selflessness does not exist. The reason you offered to > help is beacause you felt good practicing your society's morals--you are > egotistical. This is not a bad thing, but such a dissection would deviate > too far from the scope of misc." Yes Travers, I can tell you're experienced in life. I'm glad you took the opportunity to share your insights with me and my silly society's morals. > "So, you asked what you could do, right? No Jacob not really, actually not at all, but it's water under the bridge. > "See, that's the problem. Just go raise the money _on your own_. There are > plenty of "good ideas" in the misc@ archives. Yes, I've since realized how futile and stupid it was of me to have such an idea. I promise it won't happen again. It's probably a good bet that these threads have made a few people realize some of their futilities too. So it's sort of like a blessing in disguise. I'm sure you will not hear anything on the subject for a good while now after getting it all out in the open. -- Steve Szmidt "For evil to triumph all that is needed is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: It's not about the money
On 3/26/06, Theo de Raadt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hmm. The last time money was short I unselfishly offered my time to help > > raise > > money, because I wanted to help. > > I have been the recipient of hundreds of these "I want to help" > letters. The problem is: lots of people really love OpenBSD and they really want to help however they can. In lots of cases it is difficult for them to really help or they just don't know how. But one thing is sure, it is all because of their love for OpenBSD. I count myselve to this group, I try to do the best I can but for a simple individual it is very difficult to be REALLY helpfull. I can try to come up with lots of crazy ideas, but I think it is a waste of time (and I don't mean my time). Therefore I will only donate what I can miss this month as soon as I receive my paycheck. I wish I could do better than that, but I can't. But whatever I do, I do it because of my love for OpenBSD. Wijnand -- OpenBSD needs your help improving the softwareworld, please donate: http://openbsd.org/donations.html Yes big code using companies, that includes you!
Re: It's not about the money
On Saturday 25 March 2006 20:14, steve szmidt wrote: > Hmm. The last time money was short I unselfishly offered my time to > help raise money, because I wanted to help. Help those who had helped > me. I figured it would be a nice thing for me to do. Altruism is a sham. Selflessness does not exist. The reason you offered to help is beacause you felt good practicing your society's morals--helping people with no concern of yourself. Well, since you only offered to help raise money, you got to feel good and do nothing at the same time. What a deal! That's a lot like prayer. "Dear God: Please help my neighbors since their house burned down." Do it yourself! Since you're influenced by popular morals, you probably will feel good by helping them or feel better by allievating your guilt. But don't con yourself into thinking that you're being selfless. You are getting something out of it--you are egotistical. This is not a bad thing, but such a dissection would deviate too far from the scope of misc. I help myself. That's why I've actually contributed (rather than spewing bunk like the rest of you malarky-brained meat wads sans nutritional value.) I know that my money funds tools that I use. It is no donation, and it certainly is not selfless. I think that this perception of "donation" is a stumbling block to corporate funding. Try using that, o' employed ones. > There are very few places indeed where people retain customers after > being verbally abused. It speaks droves of how good your code is. > Imagine the support if your attitude matched your code! OpenBSD's code is directionally porportional to the aggregate attitude of the developers. They have no time for anything but excelence. > You are burning bridges left right and center with those who'd be > happy to contribute, had it not been for the holier than thou > attitude. It's absolutely amazing people donate at all. Imagine if > you had competition that were nice! Anyone who'd spent any time on > the list would go elsewhere. Holier than thou? You're the selfless man! > It's not like anyone is suggesting you go celebate, or wear weird > clothes or something. People just like being treated nicely. I'm sure > you would not mind if someone threw a few nice words your way... OpenBSD is not fuled by anyone being nice. Insecure people need niceties. Travers Buda
Re: It's not about the money
It's a lot like mountain climbing. People do it, although personally I can't really imagine why. Because it's there. Because they can. That's why. It is not rational. Nice words maybe don't hurt, but at that level are certainly irrelevant. Me, I lurk on this list because of the attitude and the honesty. If there's something I really need to know. it's likely to show here and not much of anywhere else. Actually, considering, it's a very friendly place. They do their thing. It is their thing. It is not your thing or my thing. They will get an instant dislike of anything aimed at trying to make them do either your thing or my thing. I do not blame them. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > steve szmidt > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 8:14 PM > To: misc@openbsd.org > Subject: Re: It's not about the money > > > On Saturday 25 March 2006 17:33, you wrote: > > > Have you ever read [EMAIL PROTECTED] I mean actually read it? The only > > people > > that get slammed are those that deserve it. You're supposed to do your > > own homework - there is no hand holding because hand holding takes > > away time from more productive things, like code. The community as a > > whole spends a great deal of effort clearly documenting everything and > > those that choose to ignore that effort get the brunt of the flames. I > > have never seen, in my four years on this list, anyone getting flamed > > by a developer or well-known community member that didn't absolutely > > deserve it. > > Hmm. The last time money was short I unselfishly offered my time > to help raise > money, because I wanted to help. Help those who had helped me. I > figured it > would be a nice thing for me to do. > > I got ripped so badly in a stream of four letter words I thought > I was back in > boot camp. My kind was not needed and such. Of course it was entirely in > someones mind who I was as it sure as heck was not known. > > Yeah, it was not done on the list. But never the less by what you > call a key > member. Several others have shared their experiences with me. > Maybe because > I've offered a kind word after some public abuse. > > Jim Snyder, and others is dead on, but some people simply don't > see it. It's > invisible to a whole bunch, which is really sad. Personally I had > not heard > such fould language since boot camp. > > Your judgement as to what constitutes "deserve" is not on par > with most others > outside this list. Heck, this list is infamous for toasting people. > > > Blah blah blah, enough with the tired cliches. The problem is exactly > > too many selfish whiners. They want more and more, without having to > > Tired cliche?!? > > He's, like most of us, really grateful for the code, and pay in > kind by buying > a copy every six months. Often times I get new people to buy it too. > > > support the project, and then they want everyone to hold their hand > > through it. "Why doesnt my laptop touchpad work?" "When are you going > > to support Adaptec cards? FreeBSD supports it!" These people have zero > > understanding of OpenBSD or open source in general; and the sad part > > is, they don't even know it. Consider OpenBSD is doing them a favor by > > giving them a harsh reality check. One can only hope it will do them > > some good. > > This is not Jim whining... > > > Vendors do care. They have to care exactly because OpenSSH is the > > world standard. It would cost them far more to develop in house talent > > to maintain and extend the current codebase than it would to simply > > drop a $10K check to the project. > > That has never been questioned. And not related to Jim's comment. > > > Blah blah blah, more tired cliches. The culture here is exactly what > > made the code "beautiful". So kindly, STFU (-: > > There are very few places indeed where people retain customers > after being > verbally abused. It speaks droves of how good your code is. Imagine the > support if your attitude matched your code! > > You are burning bridges left right and center with those who'd be > happy to > contribute, had it not been for the holier than thou attitude. It's > absolutely amazing people donate at all. Imagine if you had > competition that > were nice! Anyone who'd spent any time on the list would go elsewhere. > > It's not like anyone is suggesting you go celebate, or wear weird > clothes or > something. People just like being treated nicely. I'm sure you > would not mind > if someone threw a few nice words your way... > > -- > > Steve Szmidt > > "For evil to triumph all that is needed is for good men to do nothing. > Edmund Burke
Re: It's not about the money
>The 10 people who are helping get it. They know that help is about >action, and that if you stops at just words, it just plain isn't help. the extent to which this thread has wasted time and not helped to draw any new conclusions is astonishing. theo makes a good point when he accounts for the time wasted by such outpourings of "support". i have abstained from posting to this thread until now since i see it as acutely pointless. marco's original appeal and the sea of idiotic responses made me think "i should put up or shut up, not whine like a little kid". i suggest people stop whining since it doesn't change anything. if theo were one to make compromises, would openbsd even exist? it takes someone who is unwilling to compromise to achieve anything truly great. compromise means bending your will to suit others and a diminished purity of essence. if you're unable to grok that, you should probably be watching TV. pronate and donate or stay cross.
Re: It's not about the money
On Sat, Mar 25, 2006 at 09:14:17PM -0500, steve szmidt wrote: > On Saturday 25 March 2006 17:33, you wrote: > > > Have you ever read [EMAIL PROTECTED] I mean actually read it? The only > > people > > that get slammed are those that deserve it. You're supposed to do your > > own homework - there is no hand holding because hand holding takes > > away time from more productive things, like code. The community as a > > whole spends a great deal of effort clearly documenting everything and > > those that choose to ignore that effort get the brunt of the flames. I > > have never seen, in my four years on this list, anyone getting flamed > > by a developer or well-known community member that didn't absolutely > > deserve it. > > Hmm. The last time money was short I unselfishly offered my time to help > raise > money, because I wanted to help. Help those who had helped me. I figured it > would be a nice thing for me to do. So, you asked what you could do, right? See, that's the problem. Just go raise the money _on your own_. There are plenty of "good ideas" in the misc@ archives. > I got ripped so badly in a stream of four letter words I thought I was back > in > boot camp. My kind was not needed and such. Of course it was entirely in > someones mind who I was as it sure as heck was not known. Maybe you were the third of fourth person that day that said they wanted to help and asked how. Now, if the person you asked is coordinating all the helpful people and figuring out what they should do next, then how is the person going to have time to hack? This has all been explained before. > Yeah, it was not done on the list. But never the less by what you call a key > member. Several others have shared their experiences with me. Maybe because > I've offered a kind word after some public abuse. > > Jim Snyder, and others is dead on, but some people simply don't see it. It's > invisible to a whole bunch, which is really sad. Personally I had not heard > such fould language since boot camp. Jim says the problem is the culture. I kind of agree. Seems people who want to be part of the cmmunity but don't try to understand the culture (do your homework first, read docs, ask concise and clear questions, etc) end up feeling abused. > Your judgement as to what constitutes "deserve" is not on par with most > others > outside this list. Heck, this list is infamous for toasting people. > > > Blah blah blah, enough with the tired cliches. The problem is exactly > > too many selfish whiners. They want more and more, without having to > > Tired cliche?!? > > He's, like most of us, really grateful for the code, and pay in kind by > buying > a copy every six months. Often times I get new people to buy it too. > > > support the project, and then they want everyone to hold their hand > > through it. "Why doesnt my laptop touchpad work?" "When are you going > > to support Adaptec cards? FreeBSD supports it!" These people have zero > > understanding of OpenBSD or open source in general; and the sad part > > is, they don't even know it. Consider OpenBSD is doing them a favor by > > giving them a harsh reality check. One can only hope it will do them > > some good. > > This is not Jim whining... > > > Vendors do care. They have to care exactly because OpenSSH is the > > world standard. It would cost them far more to develop in house talent > > to maintain and extend the current codebase than it would to simply > > drop a $10K check to the project. > > That has never been questioned. And not related to Jim's comment. > > > Blah blah blah, more tired cliches. The culture here is exactly what > > made the code "beautiful". So kindly, STFU (-: > > There are very few places indeed where people retain customers after being > verbally abused. It speaks droves of how good your code is. Imagine the > support if your attitude matched your code! > > You are burning bridges left right and center with those who'd be happy to > contribute, had it not been for the holier than thou attitude. It's > absolutely amazing people donate at all. Imagine if you had competition that > were nice! Anyone who'd spent any time on the list would go elsewhere. > > It's not like anyone is suggesting you go celebate, or wear weird clothes or > something. People just like being treated nicely. I'm sure you would not mind > if someone threw a few nice words your way... Curious who "you" is here. The person you are replying to is not an OpenBSD developer. -- <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: It's not about the money
> Hmm. The last time money was short I unselfishly offered my time to help > raise > money, because I wanted to help. I have been the recipient of hundreds of these "I want to help" letters. In this last donation drive I have received over 200 letters, and then had to spend a lot of hours going through them. In the end, after about 10 of them will go somewhere, with actual people who can help OpenBSD and OpenSSH get where they want to. Those letters contain actual offers to fund hackathons, or actual offers to force their employer to do the right thing, or they contain questions about how much donation would help -- followed by an donation happening. The other 190 mails have been people telling us to change our process; and about 180 of them have been people telling us that we would be better off making our software less free. Helping us does not include telling us how to make our software less free for some segment of the market. It does not include telling us to treat some software uses less equal than others. Helping us does not include telling us to setup a US non-profit when I am not US-based, and when a US non-profit would have a big problem funding things that are almost exclusively not in the US. It does not include asking me 10 questions about our processes and such when those things are evident on our mailing list and even in the first sentence of our web page. It does not include any sentence like "I want to help you, but you must help me understand ..." The 10 people who are helping get it. They know that help is about action, and that if you stops at just words, it just plain isn't help. I don't remember you specifically, but I can make a really good guess which catagory you are in. SO go ahead, take this mail as a rebuke, take it as an attack on you if you must. Say that this is exactly why misc@ is a problem for you, and why that justifies you villifying us further. But in the end, these are precisely the types of mails and personalities that keep me from finishing the OpenSSH cleanup I am doing. That's helpful? You have started this thread with EXACTLY the kind of mail that you say you have a problem with. Pretty smurt, eh.
Re: It's not about the money
On Saturday 25 March 2006 17:33, you wrote: > Have you ever read [EMAIL PROTECTED] I mean actually read it? The only people > that get slammed are those that deserve it. You're supposed to do your > own homework - there is no hand holding because hand holding takes > away time from more productive things, like code. The community as a > whole spends a great deal of effort clearly documenting everything and > those that choose to ignore that effort get the brunt of the flames. I > have never seen, in my four years on this list, anyone getting flamed > by a developer or well-known community member that didn't absolutely > deserve it. Hmm. The last time money was short I unselfishly offered my time to help raise money, because I wanted to help. Help those who had helped me. I figured it would be a nice thing for me to do. I got ripped so badly in a stream of four letter words I thought I was back in boot camp. My kind was not needed and such. Of course it was entirely in someones mind who I was as it sure as heck was not known. Yeah, it was not done on the list. But never the less by what you call a key member. Several others have shared their experiences with me. Maybe because I've offered a kind word after some public abuse. Jim Snyder, and others is dead on, but some people simply don't see it. It's invisible to a whole bunch, which is really sad. Personally I had not heard such fould language since boot camp. Your judgement as to what constitutes "deserve" is not on par with most others outside this list. Heck, this list is infamous for toasting people. > Blah blah blah, enough with the tired cliches. The problem is exactly > too many selfish whiners. They want more and more, without having to Tired cliche?!? He's, like most of us, really grateful for the code, and pay in kind by buying a copy every six months. Often times I get new people to buy it too. > support the project, and then they want everyone to hold their hand > through it. "Why doesnt my laptop touchpad work?" "When are you going > to support Adaptec cards? FreeBSD supports it!" These people have zero > understanding of OpenBSD or open source in general; and the sad part > is, they don't even know it. Consider OpenBSD is doing them a favor by > giving them a harsh reality check. One can only hope it will do them > some good. This is not Jim whining... > Vendors do care. They have to care exactly because OpenSSH is the > world standard. It would cost them far more to develop in house talent > to maintain and extend the current codebase than it would to simply > drop a $10K check to the project. That has never been questioned. And not related to Jim's comment. > Blah blah blah, more tired cliches. The culture here is exactly what > made the code "beautiful". So kindly, STFU (-: There are very few places indeed where people retain customers after being verbally abused. It speaks droves of how good your code is. Imagine the support if your attitude matched your code! You are burning bridges left right and center with those who'd be happy to contribute, had it not been for the holier than thou attitude. It's absolutely amazing people donate at all. Imagine if you had competition that were nice! Anyone who'd spent any time on the list would go elsewhere. It's not like anyone is suggesting you go celebate, or wear weird clothes or something. People just like being treated nicely. I'm sure you would not mind if someone threw a few nice words your way... -- Steve Szmidt "For evil to triumph all that is needed is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: It's not about the money
On 3/25/06, Jim Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello All, > > I've been passively following the "money threads" from the very first > post. Considering that this topic has generated over 100 replies, > perhaps this should serve as a clue to its importance. > > Background: I'm a second-generation airline pilot, therefor I've been > many places and worked with many people in a team environment. This > is not to brag. This is to explain my perspective. I love > technology. I love OpenBSD. And I want OpenBSD to thrive. > > The money, or lack of, is not the problem. It is the symptom. The > problem is the culture of condescension. It's very simple. Treat > people like second-class citizens and they will respond accordingly. > This is not quantum physics, folks. This is about people. The code > is beautiful. OpenBSD has no equal. And yet people are abandoning > the community in droves. By what measure? CD sales have dropped while a corresponding increase in FTP downloads occurs. No one is leaving, they're just not supporting the project monetarily; they're still using the code. > I un-subscribed from OpenBSD-misc a long time ago because I realized > quickly that I would not be posting any questions. Why slam my inbox > and be insulted when I can just as easily read the archives. Have you ever read [EMAIL PROTECTED] I mean actually read it? The only people that get slammed are those that deserve it. You're supposed to do your own homework - there is no hand holding because hand holding takes away time from more productive things, like code. The community as a whole spends a great deal of effort clearly documenting everything and those that choose to ignore that effort get the brunt of the flames. I have never seen, in my four years on this list, anyone getting flamed by a developer or well-known community member that didn't absolutely deserve it. > A message to Mr. de Raadt and the OpenBSD team: You are exceptionally > gifted hackers. OpenBSD is in a class of its own. You have given the > world a wonderful gift. (several gifts actually) And the project is > now at a critical turning point. Wake up. You can go on pretending > that the problem is too many selfish whiners and too many selfish > vendors. Or you can take a good hard look in the mirror. Your > foundation is cracking. Your sandbox is getting smaller, and it's > starting to smell like the cat got in there. Blah blah blah, enough with the tired cliches. The problem is exactly too many selfish whiners. They want more and more, without having to support the project, and then they want everyone to hold their hand through it. "Why doesnt my laptop touchpad work?" "When are you going to support Adaptec cards? FreeBSD supports it!" These people have zero understanding of OpenBSD or open source in general; and the sad part is, they don't even know it. Consider OpenBSD is doing them a favor by giving them a harsh reality check. One can only hope it will do them some good. > If you are waiting for the support of IBM, Cisco, Sun, or any other > vendor, get real. They don't give a damn. They don't care if OpenSSH > lives or dies. They already have the source code. OpenSSH is already > the world standard. Vendors do care. They have to care exactly because OpenSSH is the world standard. It would cost them far more to develop in house talent to maintain and extend the current codebase than it would to simply drop a $10K check to the project. > Look, I believe in directness more than anybody. It has saved my life > on a few occasions. But there is a big difference between directness > and arrogance. It is this arrogance that is stifling OpenBSD. It is > the culture. These days common sense and directness passes as arrogance. The *real* community cannot, will not, and should not spend cycles holding hands, filling out grants, and opening up non-profit groups. The goal here is to develop secure, open code that any and all can use to build a better computing environment for *everyone*. > So you can tell me to STFU and quit wasting your precious time that > could be spent coding. Fine. Your code is already beautiful. You > can wear it like a crown. It's the culture that needs improvement. > Example comes from above. Leadership starts at the top. Blah blah blah, more tired cliches. The culture here is exactly what made the code "beautiful". So kindly, STFU (-:
