Re: : expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On 10/16/07, Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 02:39:59PM -0500, Shawn K. Quinn wrote: > > On Mon, 2007-10-15 at 19:34 -0400, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: > > > I need to look something up in a catalog. The catalog doesn't come > > > in print. I phone the supplier, they say look on the web. Its in > > > flash. So, I need flash to get work done. > > > > Maybe it's time to look for an alternate supplier that makes the catalog > > available as HTML or PDF? > > > > Not an option. > Bummer, I've yet to run into a work-related sited that required Flash. Greg -- http://lodesertprotosites.org Dethink to survive - Mclusky
Re: : expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 02:39:59PM -0500, Shawn K. Quinn wrote: > On Mon, 2007-10-15 at 19:34 -0400, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: > > I need to look something up in a catalog. The catalog doesn't come > > in print. I phone the supplier, they say look on the web. Its in > > flash. So, I need flash to get work done. > > Maybe it's time to look for an alternate supplier that makes the catalog > available as HTML or PDF? > Not an option. Doug.
Re: : expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On Mon, 2007-10-15 at 19:34 -0400, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: > I need to look something up in a catalog. The catalog doesn't come > in print. I phone the supplier, they say look on the web. Its in > flash. So, I need flash to get work done. Maybe it's time to look for an alternate supplier that makes the catalog available as HTML or PDF? -- Shawn K. Quinn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: : expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On Oct 15 19:34:38, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: > On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 03:57:19PM +0200, Jan Stary wrote: > > On Oct 15 09:16:39, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: > > > Well, at least I know that I'm not alone in needing to use flash to get > > > real work done (not for games or other time-wasters). Which means that > > > for any box from which I want to get real work done, I can't use > > > OpenBSD. It would be great if it were possible to somehow wrap up > > > fireforx + flash so that it was possible and safe to run as a normal > > > user on OpenBSD. By which I don't mean to suggest that you need to be > > > root to run it but instead that I know that in general its not wise to > > > run any X app, especially a browser to the net, as root. > > > > In general, it's not wise to use flash to get real work done. > > > > I need to look something up in a catalog. The catalog doesn't come > in print. I phone the supplier, they say look on the web. Its in > flash. So, I need flash to get work done. See? That's exactly what was talking about. Jan
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
> > Never found a use for "3D acceleration" myself. Seems to be mostly > > for games and, well, games. > > > > There are other uses. Like the silly 3D accelerated window managers (as > a cwm user it's obvious I see no need for that). There's also other > uses. For example last year for my final year university project I wrote > a visualisation app. using vtk[1], I wrote it on OpenBSD. Of course I'd > have liked acceleration then, it would have run faster (software GL > isn't very fast). > I'm a mathematician. Concerns of logical simplicity and documentation led me to run OpenBSD on the desktop, but sometimes I need to run 3D visualization software, too. Unfortunately, it's so slow on OpenBSD that it's only borderline usable.
Re: : expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 03:57:19PM +0200, Jan Stary wrote: > On Oct 15 09:16:39, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: > > Well, at least I know that I'm not alone in needing to use flash to get > > real work done (not for games or other time-wasters). Which means that > > for any box from which I want to get real work done, I can't use > > OpenBSD. It would be great if it were possible to somehow wrap up > > fireforx + flash so that it was possible and safe to run as a normal > > user on OpenBSD. By which I don't mean to suggest that you need to be > > root to run it but instead that I know that in general its not wise to > > run any X app, especially a browser to the net, as root. > > In general, it's not wise to use flash to get real work done. > I need to look something up in a catalog. The catalog doesn't come in print. I phone the supplier, they say look on the web. Its in flash. So, I need flash to get work done. Doug.
Re: : expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 05:31:51AM -0500, Robert C Wittig wrote: > Raimo Niskanen wrote: > >Perhaps the best, but not the only. Flash i all over the net. > >E.g to see the weather forecasts from the Swedish Meteorology > >and Hydrology Institute (SMHI), you need Flash 8. Just a few > >months ago you needed Internet Explorer as well, but they > >are aware and improving... > > > >But Flash 7 via Opera and Linux emulation in OpenBSD does not > >cut it, alas :-( > > You're right, the Opera Flash Plugin doesn't really cut it, but I have > discovered a somewhat useful workaround. > > By hitting 'Pause' on the Flash 9 movies that autostart, before they > have a chance to crash, (or just changing the setting on those that do > not autostart), I have been able to right-click and set the movie > quality to the lowest setting (default is highest quality), which > permits most movies to at least play. > Well, at least I know that I'm not alone in needing to use flash to get real work done (not for games or other time-wasters). Which means that for any box from which I want to get real work done, I can't use OpenBSD. It would be great if it were possible to somehow wrap up fireforx + flash so that it was possible and safe to run as a normal user on OpenBSD. By which I don't mean to suggest that you need to be root to run it but instead that I know that in general its not wise to run any X app, especially a browser to the net, as root. Doug.
Re: : expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
Raimo Niskanen wrote: Perhaps the best, but not the only. Flash i all over the net. E.g to see the weather forecasts from the Swedish Meteorology and Hydrology Institute (SMHI), you need Flash 8. Just a few months ago you needed Internet Explorer as well, but they are aware and improving... But Flash 7 via Opera and Linux emulation in OpenBSD does not cut it, alas :-( OT noise I know. This thread climaxed on Henning's earlier post. You're right, the Opera Flash Plugin doesn't really cut it, but I have discovered a somewhat useful workaround. By hitting 'Pause' on the Flash 9 movies that autostart, before they have a chance to crash, (or just changing the setting on those that do not autostart), I have been able to right-click and set the movie quality to the lowest setting (default is highest quality), which permits most movies to at least play. -- -wittig http://www.robertwittig.com/ http://robertwittig.net/ http://robertwittig.org/ .
Re: : expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
I know what you mean, I have to use Flash 9 :S A. On 15/10/2007, Raimo Niskanen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 12:25:46PM -0700, Karsten McMinn wrote: > > On 10/11/07, Nick Holland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Personally, I absolutely LOVE the fact that OpenBSD doesn't support > > > flash natively. I think that's a great selling point for using it > > > on a desktop. Oh, but you not only like flash, but demand it. > > > That's ok, that's your measure of "desktop", it's my measure of > > > annoying. Are there some places I can't go? Yep. I rather suspect > > > they lose more by not having me than I do by not having them. > > > > I'm in the same boat as you, however youtube/google video are > > the best argument for flash. adobe should thank them, and possibly > > myspace for keeping their macromedia pipe dreams alive. > > > > Perhaps the best, but not the only. Flash i all over the net. > E.g to see the weather forecasts from the Swedish Meteorology > and Hydrology Institute (SMHI), you need Flash 8. Just a few > months ago you needed Internet Explorer as well, but they > are aware and improving... > > But Flash 7 via Opera and Linux emulation in OpenBSD does not > cut it, alas :-( > > > > > OT noise I know. This thread climaxed on Henning's earlier post. > > -- > > / Raimo Niskanen, Erlang/OTP, Ericsson AB
Re: : expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 12:25:46PM -0700, Karsten McMinn wrote: > On 10/11/07, Nick Holland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Personally, I absolutely LOVE the fact that OpenBSD doesn't support > > flash natively. I think that's a great selling point for using it > > on a desktop. Oh, but you not only like flash, but demand it. > > That's ok, that's your measure of "desktop", it's my measure of > > annoying. Are there some places I can't go? Yep. I rather suspect > > they lose more by not having me than I do by not having them. > > I'm in the same boat as you, however youtube/google video are > the best argument for flash. adobe should thank them, and possibly > myspace for keeping their macromedia pipe dreams alive. > Perhaps the best, but not the only. Flash i all over the net. E.g to see the weather forecasts from the Swedish Meteorology and Hydrology Institute (SMHI), you need Flash 8. Just a few months ago you needed Internet Explorer as well, but they are aware and improving... But Flash 7 via Opera and Linux emulation in OpenBSD does not cut it, alas :-( > OT noise I know. This thread climaxed on Henning's earlier post. -- / Raimo Niskanen, Erlang/OTP, Ericsson AB
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On 10/11/07, Nick Holland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Personally, I absolutely LOVE the fact that OpenBSD doesn't support > flash natively. I think that's a great selling point for using it > on a desktop. Oh, but you not only like flash, but demand it. > That's ok, that's your measure of "desktop", it's my measure of > annoying. Are there some places I can't go? Yep. I rather suspect > they lose more by not having me than I do by not having them. I'm in the same boat as you, however youtube/google video are the best argument for flash. adobe should thank them, and possibly myspace for keeping their macromedia pipe dreams alive. OT noise I know. This thread climaxed on Henning's earlier post.
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On 12/10/2007, Owain Ainsworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Then again I'm currently attempting to port the DRM (direct rendering > manager) to OpenBSD, Do you accept paypal donations at your zerooa at googlemail dot com email address? I'm broke, not rich, so I can't pay you for your work hours, but I can send you a tiny sum (a few euros) as a gesture of encouragement (and cc this to misc in the hope of others doing the same). Why am I so hyped? Games, really... I have some Ubuntu Linux box with a Unichrome Pro graphics chipset. I discovered http://www.openchrome.org/ , an apparently blob-free FOSS video driver, and for the first time in my life I had OpenGL running on completely free software; yes, granted, most Ubuntu users, including me, end up tolerating some other blobs (if only to watch those sbemails), but the hardware accelerated graphics setup at least is blob-free. So then I discovered Chromium BSU ( http://www.reptilelabour.com/software/chromium/ ). I would love to have this kick ass on an OpenBSD box...
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On 12/10/2007, Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'd like to start a discussion about extending the answer to the OpenBSD FAQ > # 1.10: "Can I use OpenBSD as a Desktop System?" I have also felt before that that FAQ item could be expanded, so I wrote an expanded answer and submitted a diff. However, my answer was not posted online, so either people didn't like my expanded answer, or my email got lost in the shuffle (or maybe I made some newbie mistake with diff(1)). In case people are still interested, here is what I submitted: -- Forwarded message -- From: Jens Ropers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 3 Oct 2006 16:59 Subject: FAQ diff: OpenBSD on the desktop To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, Please find below a diff for http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq1.html ; specifically for http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq1.html#Desktop . I have also attached the diff as file for you convenience. Thanks and regards, --ropers Quoted unified diff (diff -u) follows: --- faq1.html.orig 2006-10-03 16:25:05.0 +0200 +++ faq1.html 2006-10-03 16:47:39.0 +0200 @@ -417,6 +417,25 @@ You must answer this question for yourself. +That said, OpenBSD ships with the http://www.x.org/";>X Window System, the basis for a graphical windowing environment of the type currently commonly associated with "desktop computing". Many users identify "desktop system" to mean "http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/W/WIMP-environment.html";>WIMP-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_user_interface";>GUI setup with the following applications": + + +a graphical web browser, +an email client, +a PDF viewer, +an image viewer, +"office" software applications such as a word processor, a spreadsheet, and a presentation program, +music/media player software, +and possibly a choice of further productivity software and games. + + + +While there isn't an "official" OpenBSD desktop distribution, it is certainly possible to satisfy all of the above requirements and install such applications on an OpenBSD system. + + +However, different people have different opinions about which individual application programs are preferred, and it is not for the OpenBSD project to prejudice your decisions. You will have to make these choices for yourself and do the legwork in terms of setting up your own system the way you prefer it. Searching the web for openbsd on the desktop may a good starting point. You will undoubtedly find some of the documents other people have written about their own setup. Please understand however that these are not official and only represent other users' solutions to their own needs — which may be different from yours. Your mileage may vary. + + 1.11 - Why is/isn't ProductX included? -- www.ropersonline.com
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 09:36:33PM -0700, Darrin Chandler wrote: > On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 11:57:18PM -0400, Kevin Stam wrote: > > However, it is also worth noting that some typical desktop needs and uses > > are incompatible with the focus of OpenBSD. There are currently no video > > cards that provide the necessary specifications to create open drivers for > > all hardware function, most notably 3D acceleration. > > I have a problem with the way this is stated. It's not the focus of > OpenBSD that's causing the problem here. It's the lack of vendors giving > you, the customer, the option to use the hardware with your choice of > software (including OS). You can't buy hardware from a company that > restricts your use, and then blame the makers of software for not > providing full functionality. It's completely backward. > The focus of OpenBSD is on security. Its not the problem but it is incompatible with providing binary blob drivers. This is in no way a complaint agains OpenBSD. _Somebody_ has to provide a rock-solid secure OS and that precludes allowing some things that would otherwise be convenient for some people. I do beleive that the current short statement in the FAQ should be expanded to address the issue. Doug.
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
* Owain Ainsworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-10-12 07:12]: > Then again I'm currently attempting to port the DRM (direct rendering > manager) to OpenBSD, so I'm not whining about it. and that is the right attitude. sit down and send code to change what you didn't like. instead of sending questionable faq additions. (now, sending faq additions in general is not a bad idea either, just this one was) -- Henning Brauer, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting - Hamburg & Amsterdam
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 10:36:27PM -0400, Nick Holland wrote: > Douglas A. Tutty wrote: > > I've been evaluating OpenBSD as a desktop system while learning about it > > on my lesser (older) hardware. I've learned a lot and will continue to > > learn about OpenBSD but I don't think it will work as my primary > > desktop. > > > > Based on what I've learned here on Misc, I'd like to start a discussion > > about extending the answer to the OpenBSD FAQ # 1.10: "Can I use OpenBSD > > as a Desktop System?" While of course every potential new user has to > > evaluate OpenBSD for themselves, we could and I believe we should point > > out some of the more common tripping points found by people who end up > > not choosing OpenBSD for their desktop. > > 1) We don't do "discussions". > 2) See rule #1 :) > > ... > > I think the following paragraphs would enhance the FAQ to provide > > the person new to the OpenBSD focus a heads up on some of the > > difficulties. > > > > # >8-- > > However, it is also worth noting that some desktop needs and uses are > > incompatible with the focus of OBSD. There are currently no video cards > > that provide full specs to create open drivers for all hardware > > function, most notibly 3D accelleration. While more than adequate for > > most uses of the X-Window system, performance while watching movies, > > playing games, or graphic design, may be suboptimal or not possible > > depending on your hardware and expectations. > > Wow, you determined a lot from your experience with your 486... > > Never found a use for "3D acceleration" myself. Seems to be mostly > for games and, well, games. > There are other uses. Like the silly 3D accelerated window managers (as a cwm user it's obvious I see no need for that). There's also other uses. For example last year for my final year university project I wrote a visualisation app. using vtk[1], I wrote it on OpenBSD. Of course I'd have liked acceleration then, it would have run faster (software GL isn't very fast). Then again I'm currently attempting to port the DRM (direct rendering manager) to OpenBSD, so I'm not whinging about it. Regards, -0- [1] http://vtk.org -- Workers of the world, arise! You have nothing to lose but your chairs.
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 11:57:18PM -0400, Kevin Stam wrote: > However, it is also worth noting that some typical desktop needs and uses > are incompatible with the focus of OpenBSD. There are currently no video > cards that provide the necessary specifications to create open drivers for > all hardware function, most notably 3D acceleration. I have a problem with the way this is stated. It's not the focus of OpenBSD that's causing the problem here. It's the lack of vendors giving you, the customer, the option to use the hardware with your choice of software (including OS). You can't buy hardware from a company that restricts your use, and then blame the makers of software for not providing full functionality. It's completely backward. -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD User Group | MetaBUG [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://phxbug.org/ | http://metabug.org/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ | Daemons in the Desert | Global BUG Federation
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
However, it is also worth noting that some typical desktop needs and uses are incompatible with the focus of OpenBSD. There are currently no video cards that provide the necessary specifications to create open drivers for all hardware function, most notably 3D acceleration. While more than adequate for most uses of the X-Window system, in some cases performance while watching movies, playing games, or graphic design, may be suboptimal or not possible depending on your hardware and expectations. The use of binary "blob" drivers would introduce the potential for unknown security breaches and is not going to be supported on OpenBSD. The work is ongoing in the larger open-source community to both create open-source drivers that can access the full hardware potential of the available video cards. If this is something you care about, please contact your video card manufacturer. Similarily, flash plugins in browsers cause untested code to run on the computer and introduce the potential for unknown security breaches, and are therefore not supported, other than as it already exists for the Opera browser. Therefore, it on what is meant by "desktop". System administrators will likely be thrilled with OpenBSD on their desktop. However, a home user wanting an entertainment centre, a movie editor, a graphic designer, or a user requiring a multi-headed Computer Aided Drafting and Design system may find the trade offs made for security are too steep to use OpenBSD as their operating system on such computers and may choose to use a less secure operating system. Fixed up a tiny bit, now that I've gotten a good whack with the old cluestick. No opinion either positive or negative on it's inclusion. That, and it has nothing to do with me. I agree with what's being said, I think...but people's definition of a desktop differ, and as an aside, it's perhaps a little excessive? I mean, how many users are going to really notice video differences, or attempt to play 3d games in OpenBSD? (Do we even have many in ports?) On 10/11/07, Kevin Stam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ah, thanks for the information. My bad. I'll have to take back the video > comments now. :) Learn something new every day... > > On 10/11/07, Brett Lymn < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 10:56:38PM -0400, Kevin Stam wrote: > > > > > > Or perhaps you're being quite legitimate here. I just haven't heard of > > that > > > problem before, it's always been about 3d acceleration. > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_video_extension > > > > It makes a big difference. > > > > -- > > Brett Lymn > > "Warning: > > The information contained in this email and any attached files is > > confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended > > recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any > > attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email > > in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been > > taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free, > > however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the > > sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus > > checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to > > your computer."
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 10:56:38PM -0400, Kevin Stam wrote: > > Or perhaps you're being quite legitimate here. I just haven't heard of that > problem before, it's always been about 3d acceleration. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_video_extension It makes a big difference. -- Brett Lymn "Warning: The information contained in this email and any attached files is confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free, however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to your computer."
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
Intel integrated graphics card. Standard cheaper one found in laptops. Usually watch in mplayer, default settings. Occasionally, VLC, default settings. Of course, the intel cards don't have the same blob problems that the more expensive ones tend to. I don't know about your experiences comparing the watching of a movie changing between the nv and nvidia driver. Is this some videophile thing? Something that "certainly seemed" better, but wasn't actually much better if you didn't know which driver had played the movie? Or perhaps you're being quite legitimate here. I just haven't heard of that problem before, it's always been about 3d acceleration. Either way, even if true, a minor case like that does not mean that OpenBSD is "suboptimal" at playing movies. Nonsense, bullshit and whathaveyou. I doubt the blobs play video better then their free brethren. Anyways, I see this degenerating into a videophile argument, which I really don't plan to take part in. Besides, people don't seem to care much about HD video at all, despite it being so superior to DVDs. As it's been repeated here, requirements for desktop systems vary. That, and watched video varies. For me, it's usually cartoons anime, and I'm sure the difference between Trigun on a blob and Trigun on a proper driver isn't going to be that impressively different, even if it were better for non-cartoons. On 10/11/07, Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 09:00:39PM -0400, Kevin Stam wrote: > > Aside from some typos, I'll have to dispute the inclusion of movie > watching > > and movie editing. Very much, actually. I've never had noticeably poorer > > > movie watching/viewing performance on OpenBSD as opposed to other > > distributions. (Gentoo is my other, and neither work better then the > other > > for movie watching.) > > > > Now, if we're talking about things that involve "3d acceleration", like > 3d > > games or 3d animation, then I'd agree with your statement. But > pretending > > that OpenBSD can't even play a decent movie or two is just FUD. > > > > I did say "may be suboptimal" which was my experience comparing the open > nv driver with the closed nVidia driver. > > Well, I haven't pulled Debian off my amd64 box with a nVidia EN7300GT > card to put OpenBSD on it. One reason for that is that I'm on dial's > and a reinstall of everything takes a few days. For that card, my > choice of drivers seems to be the xorg nv driver or the binary blob > nVidia driver as compiled by Debian in its non-free repository. I do > know that I get a much better image quality when watching DVDs with the > nVidia driver than with the nv driver. As I understand it, it is > because the nv driver doesn't use the hardware to do (some?) of the > conversion (mpeg, scaling, deinterlacing, whatever) when watching it > full screen at 1600 x 1200 @ 85Hz on a 21" CRT Intergraph, with VLC. > > So, if you've had great movie experiences with OpenBSD, what video card > do you use, what driver, at what resolution, full screen, deinterlaced > (blend)? > > > > > On 10/11/07, Douglas A. Tutty < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > I've been evaluating OpenBSD as a desktop system while learning about > it > > > on my lesser (older) hardware. I've learned a lot and will continue > to > > > learn about OpenBSD but I don't think it will work as my primary > > > desktop. > > > > > > Based on what I've learned here on Misc, I'd like to start a > discussion > > > about extending the answer to the OpenBSD FAQ # 1.10: "Can I use > OpenBSD > > > as a Desktop System?" While of course every potential new user has to > > > evaluate OpenBSD for themselves, we could and I believe we should > point > > > out some of the more common tripping points found by people who end up > > > > not choosing OpenBSD for their desktop. > > > > > > As it exists right now it reads: > > > > > > # >8-- > > > > > > This question is often asked in exactly this manner -- with no > > > explanation of what the asker means by "desktop". The only person who > > > can answer that question is you, as it depends on what your needs and > > > expectations are. > > > > > > While OpenBSD has a great reputation as a "server" operating system, > > > it can be and is used on the desktop. Many "desktop" applications are > > > available through packages and ports. As with all operating systems > > > decisions, the question is: can it do the job you desire in the way > > > you wish? You must answer this question for yourself. > > > > > > It might be worth noting that a large amount of OpenBSD development is > > > > done on laptops. > > > > > > # >8-- > > > > > > > > > I think the following paragraphs would enhance the FAQ to provide > > > the person new to the OpenBSD focus a heads up on some of the > > > difficulties. > > > > > > # >8-- > > > However, it is also worth noting that some desktop needs and uses are > > > incompatible with the focus of OBSD. There are currently no video > cards >
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
Douglas A. Tutty wrote: > I've been evaluating OpenBSD as a desktop system while learning about it > on my lesser (older) hardware. I've learned a lot and will continue to > learn about OpenBSD but I don't think it will work as my primary > desktop. > > Based on what I've learned here on Misc, I'd like to start a discussion > about extending the answer to the OpenBSD FAQ # 1.10: "Can I use OpenBSD > as a Desktop System?" While of course every potential new user has to > evaluate OpenBSD for themselves, we could and I believe we should point > out some of the more common tripping points found by people who end up > not choosing OpenBSD for their desktop. 1) We don't do "discussions". 2) See rule #1 :) ... > I think the following paragraphs would enhance the FAQ to provide > the person new to the OpenBSD focus a heads up on some of the > difficulties. > > # >8-- > However, it is also worth noting that some desktop needs and uses are > incompatible with the focus of OBSD. There are currently no video cards > that provide full specs to create open drivers for all hardware > function, most notibly 3D accelleration. While more than adequate for > most uses of the X-Window system, performance while watching movies, > playing games, or graphic design, may be suboptimal or not possible > depending on your hardware and expectations. Wow, you determined a lot from your experience with your 486... Never found a use for "3D acceleration" myself. Seems to be mostly for games and, well, games. > The use of binary "blob" > drivers would introduce the potential for unknown security breaches and > is not going to be supported on OpenBSD. The work is ongoing in the > larger open-source community to both create open-source drivers that can > access the full hardware potential of the video cards that are > available, and there is some work to create new video cards that will be > fully open and high performance. It just doesn't exist yet. and no point talking about things that don't exist. > Similarily, flash plugins in browsers cause untested code to run on the > computer and introduce the potential for unknown security breaches, and > are therefore not supported, other than as it already exists for the Opera > browser. > > It depends therefor on what is meant by "desktop". System > administrators will likely be thrilled with OpenBSD on their desktop. > However, a home user wanting an entertainment centre, a movie editor, a > graphic designer, or a user requiring a multi-headed Computer Aided > Drafting and Design system may find the tradeoffs made for security are > too steep to use OpenBSD as their operating system on such computers and > may choose to use a less secure operating system. I should introduce you to fluffy, my multi-headed computer. Two 1280x1024 LCD panels, one 1600x1200 CRT. Why do I have three monitors? Because my table isn't big enough for #4 (there are at least two empty PCI slots in the thing. :) > > > # >8-- > > Does this seem like a fair addition? no, I don't like this. And, I get to make those decisions. :) I obviously don't share your definition of "desktop". To me, you don't describe a desktop computer, you are describing an entertainment system. I do work with my computer...both for money and fun, but it is a tool to accomplish what I wish to do, not the goal of my work. It is a tool on my desk, like my the phone, the calculator, the screwdriver and other tools. I watch movies in a theater or on a TV. It's good to step away from the computer once in a while, and interact with people. How about mentioning the fact that it doesn't run Microsoft Office? That is a lot of people's definition of a desktop computer. They don't want OpenOffice, they want MS Word, Excel, and Powerpoint. How about Autocad? Outlook? Visual Basic? Halo3? Nero? Weblogic Workbench? That silly but addictive game my mother plays on her laptop? How dare you call it a desktop without these apps?? Personally, I absolutely LOVE the fact that OpenBSD doesn't support flash natively. I think that's a great selling point for using it on a desktop. Oh, but you not only like flash, but demand it. That's ok, that's your measure of "desktop", it's my measure of annoying. Are there some places I can't go? Yep. I rather suspect they lose more by not having me than I do by not having them. There is no shortage of flash-free or non-flash-dependent websites for me to waste my time on. Based on the saying, "What is the most commonly clicked on link on the Internet? 'skip intro'", I really don't think I'm alone here. It sounds like your definition of "desktop" is "Windows", but you don't like Windows. Ok, whatever. Use whatever Windows-emulating system you like best. OpenBSD is not spending its time emulating Windows, not in look-and-feel, not in application count, not in design, not in security. There were desktop computers before Windows, there are desktop computers OTHER than those based on the
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
I use OpenBSD as a desktop everyday and I have an 'entertainment center' that delivers music, movies and arcade games which also runs OpenBSD. OpenBSD is very well suited to being a media center due to the lean default install and excellent package system. On 10/12/07, Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I've been evaluating OpenBSD as a desktop system while learning about it > on my lesser (older) hardware. I've learned a lot and will continue to > learn about OpenBSD but I don't think it will work as my primary > desktop. > > Based on what I've learned here on Misc, I'd like to start a discussion > about extending the answer to the OpenBSD FAQ # 1.10: "Can I use OpenBSD > as a Desktop System?" While of course every potential new user has to > evaluate OpenBSD for themselves, we could and I believe we should point > out some of the more common tripping points found by people who end up > not choosing OpenBSD for their desktop. > > As it exists right now it reads: > > # >8-- > > This question is often asked in exactly this manner -- with no > explanation of what the asker means by "desktop". The only person who > can answer that question is you, as it depends on what your needs and > expectations are. > > While OpenBSD has a great reputation as a "server" operating system, > it can be and is used on the desktop. Many "desktop" applications are > available through packages and ports. As with all operating systems > decisions, the question is: can it do the job you desire in the way > you wish? You must answer this question for yourself. > > It might be worth noting that a large amount of OpenBSD development is > done on laptops. > > # >8-- > > > I think the following paragraphs would enhance the FAQ to provide > the person new to the OpenBSD focus a heads up on some of the > difficulties. > > # >8-- > However, it is also worth noting that some desktop needs and uses are > incompatible with the focus of OBSD. There are currently no video cards > that provide full specs to create open drivers for all hardware > function, most notibly 3D accelleration. While more than adequate for > most uses of the X-Window system, performance while watching movies, > playing games, or graphic design, may be suboptimal or not possible > depending on your hardware and expectations. The use of binary "blob" > drivers would introduce the potential for unknown security breaches and > is not going to be supported on OpenBSD. The work is ongoing in the > larger open-source community to both create open-source drivers that can > access the full hardware potential of the video cards that are > available, and there is some work to create new video cards that will be > fully open and high performance. It just doesn't exist yet. > > Similarily, flash plugins in browsers cause untested code to run on the > computer and introduce the potential for unknown security breaches, and > are therefore not supported, other than as it already exists for the Opera > browser. > > It depends therefor on what is meant by "desktop". System > administrators will likely be thrilled with OpenBSD on their desktop. > However, a home user wanting an entertainment centre, a movie editor, a > graphic designer, or a user requiring a multi-headed Computer Aided > Drafting and Design system may find the tradeoffs made for security are > too steep to use OpenBSD as their operating system on such computers and > may choose to use a less secure operating system. > > > # >8-- > > Does this seem like a fair addition? > > Doug.
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 09:00:39PM -0400, Kevin Stam wrote: > Aside from some typos, I'll have to dispute the inclusion of movie watching > and movie editing. Very much, actually. I've never had noticeably poorer > movie watching/viewing performance on OpenBSD as opposed to other > distributions. (Gentoo is my other, and neither work better then the other > for movie watching.) > > Now, if we're talking about things that involve "3d acceleration", like 3d > games or 3d animation, then I'd agree with your statement. But pretending > that OpenBSD can't even play a decent movie or two is just FUD. > I did say "may be suboptimal" which was my experience comparing the open nv driver with the closed nVidia driver. Well, I haven't pulled Debian off my amd64 box with a nVidia EN7300GT card to put OpenBSD on it. One reason for that is that I'm on dial's and a reinstall of everything takes a few days. For that card, my choice of drivers seems to be the xorg nv driver or the binary blob nVidia driver as compiled by Debian in its non-free repository. I do know that I get a much better image quality when watching DVDs with the nVidia driver than with the nv driver. As I understand it, it is because the nv driver doesn't use the hardware to do (some?) of the conversion (mpeg, scaling, deinterlacing, whatever) when watching it full screen at 1600 x 1200 @ 85Hz on a 21" CRT Intergraph, with VLC. So, if you've had great movie experiences with OpenBSD, what video card do you use, what driver, at what resolution, full screen, deinterlaced (blend)? > On 10/11/07, Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I've been evaluating OpenBSD as a desktop system while learning about it > > on my lesser (older) hardware. I've learned a lot and will continue to > > learn about OpenBSD but I don't think it will work as my primary > > desktop. > > > > Based on what I've learned here on Misc, I'd like to start a discussion > > about extending the answer to the OpenBSD FAQ # 1.10: "Can I use OpenBSD > > as a Desktop System?" While of course every potential new user has to > > evaluate OpenBSD for themselves, we could and I believe we should point > > out some of the more common tripping points found by people who end up > > not choosing OpenBSD for their desktop. > > > > As it exists right now it reads: > > > > # >8-- > > > > This question is often asked in exactly this manner -- with no > > explanation of what the asker means by "desktop". The only person who > > can answer that question is you, as it depends on what your needs and > > expectations are. > > > > While OpenBSD has a great reputation as a "server" operating system, > > it can be and is used on the desktop. Many "desktop" applications are > > available through packages and ports. As with all operating systems > > decisions, the question is: can it do the job you desire in the way > > you wish? You must answer this question for yourself. > > > > It might be worth noting that a large amount of OpenBSD development is > > done on laptops. > > > > # >8-- > > > > > > I think the following paragraphs would enhance the FAQ to provide > > the person new to the OpenBSD focus a heads up on some of the > > difficulties. > > > > # >8-- > > However, it is also worth noting that some desktop needs and uses are > > incompatible with the focus of OBSD. There are currently no video cards > > that provide full specs to create open drivers for all hardware > > function, most notably 3D acceleration. While more than adequate for > > most uses of the X-Window system, performance while watching movies, > > playing games, or graphic design, may be suboptimal or not possible > > depending on your hardware and expectations. The use of binary "blob" > > drivers would introduce the potential for unknown security breaches and > > is not going to be supported on OpenBSD. The work is ongoing in the > > larger open-source community to both create open-source drivers that can > > access the full hardware potential of the video cards that are > > available, and there is some work to create new video cards that will be > > fully open and high performance. It just doesn't exist yet. > > > > Similarly, flash plug-ins in browsers cause untested code to run on the > > computer and introduce the potential for unknown security breaches, and > > are therefore not supported, other than as it already exists for the Opera > > browser. > > > > It depends therefor on what is meant by "desktop". System > > administrators will likely be thrilled with OpenBSD on their desktop. > > However, a home user wanting an entertainment centre, a movie editor, a > > graphic designer, or a user requiring a multi-headed Computer Aided > > Drafting and Design system may find the trade-offs made for security are > > too steep to use OpenBSD as their operating system on such computers and > > may choose to use a less secure operating system. > > > > > > # >8-- > > > > Does this seem like a fair addition? > >
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
Douglas A. Tutty writes: > I think the following paragraphs would enhance the FAQ to > provide the person new to the OpenBSD focus a heads up on some > of the difficulties. You are making some weird assumptions about what "the desktop" is. My desktop is nothing like the one you describe, and OpenBSD works perfectly for everything I need, including Flash and playing movies. It's good enough for grandparents - http://www.undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20071009100145 It's good enough for children - http://www.undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20061114191150 It's even good enough for girls. ;)
Re: expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
Aside from some typos, I'll have to dispute the inclusion of movie watching and movie editing. Very much, actually. I've never had noticeably poorer movie watching/viewing performance on OpenBSD as opposed to other distributions. (Gentoo is my other, and neither work better then the other for movie watching.) Now, if we're talking about things that involve "3d acceleration", like 3d games or 3d animation, then I'd agree with your statement. But pretending that OpenBSD can't even play a decent movie or two is just FUD. On 10/11/07, Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I've been evaluating OpenBSD as a desktop system while learning about it > on my lesser (older) hardware. I've learned a lot and will continue to > learn about OpenBSD but I don't think it will work as my primary > desktop. > > Based on what I've learned here on Misc, I'd like to start a discussion > about extending the answer to the OpenBSD FAQ # 1.10: "Can I use OpenBSD > as a Desktop System?" While of course every potential new user has to > evaluate OpenBSD for themselves, we could and I believe we should point > out some of the more common tripping points found by people who end up > not choosing OpenBSD for their desktop. > > As it exists right now it reads: > > # >8-- > > This question is often asked in exactly this manner -- with no > explanation of what the asker means by "desktop". The only person who > can answer that question is you, as it depends on what your needs and > expectations are. > > While OpenBSD has a great reputation as a "server" operating system, > it can be and is used on the desktop. Many "desktop" applications are > available through packages and ports. As with all operating systems > decisions, the question is: can it do the job you desire in the way > you wish? You must answer this question for yourself. > > It might be worth noting that a large amount of OpenBSD development is > done on laptops. > > # >8-- > > > I think the following paragraphs would enhance the FAQ to provide > the person new to the OpenBSD focus a heads up on some of the > difficulties. > > # >8-- > However, it is also worth noting that some desktop needs and uses are > incompatible with the focus of OBSD. There are currently no video cards > that provide full specs to create open drivers for all hardware > function, most notibly 3D accelleration. While more than adequate for > most uses of the X-Window system, performance while watching movies, > playing games, or graphic design, may be suboptimal or not possible > depending on your hardware and expectations. The use of binary "blob" > drivers would introduce the potential for unknown security breaches and > is not going to be supported on OpenBSD. The work is ongoing in the > larger open-source community to both create open-source drivers that can > access the full hardware potential of the video cards that are > available, and there is some work to create new video cards that will be > fully open and high performance. It just doesn't exist yet. > > Similarily, flash plugins in browsers cause untested code to run on the > computer and introduce the potential for unknown security breaches, and > are therefore not supported, other than as it already exists for the Opera > browser. > > It depends therefor on what is meant by "desktop". System > administrators will likely be thrilled with OpenBSD on their desktop. > However, a home user wanting an entertainment centre, a movie editor, a > graphic designer, or a user requiring a multi-headed Computer Aided > Drafting and Design system may find the tradeoffs made for security are > too steep to use OpenBSD as their operating system on such computers and > may choose to use a less secure operating system. > > > # >8-- > > Does this seem like a fair addition? > > Doug.
expansion of FAQ# 1.10 re OpenBSD as a desktop system
I've been evaluating OpenBSD as a desktop system while learning about it on my lesser (older) hardware. I've learned a lot and will continue to learn about OpenBSD but I don't think it will work as my primary desktop. Based on what I've learned here on Misc, I'd like to start a discussion about extending the answer to the OpenBSD FAQ # 1.10: "Can I use OpenBSD as a Desktop System?" While of course every potential new user has to evaluate OpenBSD for themselves, we could and I believe we should point out some of the more common tripping points found by people who end up not choosing OpenBSD for their desktop. As it exists right now it reads: # >8-- This question is often asked in exactly this manner -- with no explanation of what the asker means by "desktop". The only person who can answer that question is you, as it depends on what your needs and expectations are. While OpenBSD has a great reputation as a "server" operating system, it can be and is used on the desktop. Many "desktop" applications are available through packages and ports. As with all operating systems decisions, the question is: can it do the job you desire in the way you wish? You must answer this question for yourself. It might be worth noting that a large amount of OpenBSD development is done on laptops. # >8-- I think the following paragraphs would enhance the FAQ to provide the person new to the OpenBSD focus a heads up on some of the difficulties. # >8-- However, it is also worth noting that some desktop needs and uses are incompatible with the focus of OBSD. There are currently no video cards that provide full specs to create open drivers for all hardware function, most notibly 3D accelleration. While more than adequate for most uses of the X-Window system, performance while watching movies, playing games, or graphic design, may be suboptimal or not possible depending on your hardware and expectations. The use of binary "blob" drivers would introduce the potential for unknown security breaches and is not going to be supported on OpenBSD. The work is ongoing in the larger open-source community to both create open-source drivers that can access the full hardware potential of the video cards that are available, and there is some work to create new video cards that will be fully open and high performance. It just doesn't exist yet. Similarily, flash plugins in browsers cause untested code to run on the computer and introduce the potential for unknown security breaches, and are therefore not supported, other than as it already exists for the Opera browser. It depends therefor on what is meant by "desktop". System administrators will likely be thrilled with OpenBSD on their desktop. However, a home user wanting an entertainment centre, a movie editor, a graphic designer, or a user requiring a multi-headed Computer Aided Drafting and Design system may find the tradeoffs made for security are too steep to use OpenBSD as their operating system on such computers and may choose to use a less secure operating system. # >8-- Does this seem like a fair addition? Doug.
