Re: [Mjpeg-users] Top-forward for DV?
--- On Fri, 6/26/09, Hervé wrote: >if I well remember (I didn't verify with the lastest version), >TOP_FORWARD only shift luma (chroma was let in state) I finally had time to check this. I put a bunch of "yuvcorrect -T TOP_FORWARD -T INTERLACED_TOP_FIRST" and "yuvcorrect -T BOTT_FORWARD -T INTERLACED_BOTTOM_FIRST" commands, repeatedly, into a video-processing pipeline. If this bug existed, I figured this would make the chroma noticeably out of sync with the intensity. It looked perfect to me. So at least we can say this bug has been fixed. :-) Steven Boswell -- ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list Mjpeg-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Top-forward for DV?
Le 25 juin 09 à 12:50, Steven M. Schultz a écrit : >> Rats...my memory of the conversation was that TOP_FORWARD was >> necessary to correct DV of telecined video. > > And for a long time that was the prevailing method - but I ran into > problems back (3 or 4 years). > >> (I searched the >> mailing list archives, by asking Google for "TOP_FORWARD >> site:mail-archive.com", but couldn't find why TOP_FORWARD was >> harmful.) > > I took a quick look and saw bits/pieces of the threads but not parts > I was looking for. Try searching for yuvkineco and yuvcorrect > > I've got to get out the door and don't have time to do much more than > clear out the mailbox. > >> As an experiment, I tried running yuvkineco on video without >> doing TOP_FORWARD, and it was visibly worse.=A0 Maybe that's >> because yuvkineco is top-field-first only?=A0 It didn't seem to >> complain about being given bottom-field-first video. > > Hmmm, I thought yuvkineco would complain about the wrong field order > > >> The reverse-telecined videos I make with yuvkineco TOP_FORWARD >> look great to me...and I thought I was nitpicky about these >> things.=A0 :-) Have I been living a lie?=A0 What should I be doing? > > SHift the video one line up or down within the frame. This is MUCH > better (I think) than shifting the video 1/2 frame. Here's what I > wrote up about 3 years ago: > > #!/bin/sh > > N=rites > > # NOTE: lie and say it's a progressive stream instead of bottom > first. This > # hushes y4mscaler and we will tag the stream as top first > anyhow after > # shifting down 1 line. > # > # Take the first 479 lines of a frame and place them in the last 479 > lines > # of the output frame. This places 1 black line at the top and > converts the > # stream from bottom to top field first: > # y4mscaler -v 0 -I active=704x479+8+0 -O sar=src -O size=704x480 - > O align=BC > # > # OR > # > # If 720x486 input we can skip one top line and take the next 480 > lines: > #y4mscaler -v 0 -I active=704x480+8+1 -O sar=src -O size=704x480 my 2 cents: if I well remember (I didn't verify with the lastest version), TOP_FORWARD only shift luma (chroma was let in state) Same sort of concern here with y4mscaler if your file is 4:2:0 (or 4:1:1), the resulting chroma will be buggy with an odd crop Maybe the idea will be to convert it first to 4:4:4 before any process... (or y4mscaler still have automatisms to handle it?) bye (PS (not related to this thread): thanks to Bernhard Praschinger & Christian Ebert for their tips to compile y4mdenoise from SVN. But I didn't manage. I will wait for an official release to test it) Hervé -- ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list Mjpeg-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Top-forward for DV?
On Jun 25, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Steven Boswell II wrote: >I've got to get out the door and don't have time to do much more >than clear out the mailbox. No problem...I couldn't get to this e-mail until after work anyway :-) >Shift the video one line up or down within the frame. This is >MUCH better (I think) than shifting the video 1/2 frame. Thanks for the tip! I'll try it on the next telecined video I convert! I don't suppose there's a way to shift a DV file by one line without a decode/encode like in the script I attached at the beginning of this thread... :-) No, but you have to decode to do telecine anyway, right? Thanks, Roman. -- ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list Mjpeg-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Top-forward for DV?
>I've got to get out the door and don't have time to do much more >than clear out the mailbox. No problem...I couldn't get to this e-mail until after work anyway :-) >Shift the video one line up or down within the frame. This is >MUCH better (I think) than shifting the video 1/2 frame. Thanks for the tip! I'll try it on the next telecined video I convert! I don't suppose there's a way to shift a DV file by one line without a decode/encode like in the script I attached at the beginning of this thread... :-) Steven Boswell -- ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list Mjpeg-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Top-forward for DV?
On Thu, 2009-06-25 at 03:50 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > The reverse-telecined videos I make with yuvkineco TOP_FORWARD > > look great to me...and I thought I was nitpicky about these > > things.=A0 :-) Have I been living a lie?=A0 What should I be doing? > > SHift the video one line up or down within the frame. This is MUCH > better (I think) than shifting the video 1/2 frame. Here's what I > wrote up about 3 years ago: Exactly! That's my favorite way of handling these things too. Looks better than anything else I've ever tried. Thanks, Roman. -- ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list Mjpeg-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Top-forward for DV?
> Rats...my memory of the conversation was that TOP_FORWARD was
> necessary to correct DV of telecined video.
And for a long time that was the prevailing method - but I ran into
problems back (3 or 4 years).
> (I searched the
> mailing list archives, by asking Google for "TOP_FORWARD
> site:mail-archive.com", but couldn't find why TOP_FORWARD was harmful.)
I took a quick look and saw bits/pieces of the threads but not parts
I was looking for. Try searching for yuvkineco and yuvcorrect
I've got to get out the door and don't have time to do much more than
clear out the mailbox.
> As an experiment, I tried running yuvkineco on video without
> doing TOP_FORWARD, and it was visibly worse.=A0 Maybe that's
> because yuvkineco is top-field-first only?=A0 It didn't seem to
> complain about being given bottom-field-first video.
Hmmm, I thought yuvkineco would complain about the wrong field order
> The reverse-telecined videos I make with yuvkineco TOP_FORWARD
> look great to me...and I thought I was nitpicky about these
> things.=A0 :-) Have I been living a lie?=A0 What should I be doing?
SHift the video one line up or down within the frame. This is MUCH
better (I think) than shifting the video 1/2 frame. Here's what I
wrote up about 3 years ago:
#!/bin/sh
N=rites
# NOTE: lie and say it's a progressive stream instead of bottom first. This
# hushes y4mscaler and we will tag the stream as top first anyhow after
# shifting down 1 line.
#
# Take the first 479 lines of a frame and place them in the last 479 lines
# of the output frame. This places 1 black line at the top and converts the
# stream from bottom to top field first:
# y4mscaler -v 0 -I active=704x479+8+0 -O sar=src -O size=704x480 -O align=BC
#
# OR
#
# If 720x486 input we can skip one top line and take the next 480 lines:
#y4mscaler -v 0 -I active=704x480+8+1 -O sar=src -O size=704x480
#
# -A ${N}.wav as needed.
qttoy4m -i p -a 10:11 /Volumes/TEMP/tmp/${N}.mov | \
y4mscaler -v 0 -I active=704x480+8+1 -O sar=src -O size=704x480 -O align=BC | \
yuvdenoise -t 4,6,6 | \
yuvcorrect -v 0 -T INTERLACED_TOP_FIRST | \
yuvkineco -F 1 -C yuvkineco-${N}.txt | \
y4mtoqt -a /Volumes/TEMP/tmp/${N}.wav -o /Volumes/RAID/TEMP/${N}.mov
and with that I'me off
Steven Schultz
>yuvkineco is top field first only.
>[...]
>yuvcorrect top_forward is harmful.
Rats...my memory of the conversation was that TOP_FORWARD was
necessary to correct DV of telecined video. (I searched the
mailing list archives, by asking Google for "TOP_FORWARD
site:mail-archive.com", but couldn't find why TOP_FORWARD was
harmful.)
As an experiment, I tried running yuvkineco on video without
doing TOP_FORWARD, and it was visibly worse. Maybe that's
because yuvkineco is top-field-first only? It didn't seem to
complain about being given bottom-field-first video.
The reverse-telecined videos I make with yuvkineco TOP_FORWARD
look great to me...and I thought I was nitpicky about these
things. :-) Have I been living a lie? What should I be doing?
Steven Boswell
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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Top-forward for DV?
>yuvkineco is top field first only. >[...] >yuvcorrect top_forward is harmful. Rats...my memory of the conversation was that TOP_FORWARD was necessary to correct DV of telecined video. (I searched the mailing list archives, by asking Google for "TOP_FORWARD site:mail-archive.com", but couldn't find why TOP_FORWARD was harmful.) As an experiment, I tried running yuvkineco on video without doing TOP_FORWARD, and it was visibly worse. Maybe that's because yuvkineco is top-field-first only? It didn't seem to complain about being given bottom-field-first video. The reverse-telecined videos I make with yuvkineco TOP_FORWARD look great to me...and I thought I was nitpicky about these things. :-) Have I been living a lie? What should I be doing? Steven Boswell -- ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list Mjpeg-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Top-forward for DV?
On Wed, 24 Jun 2009, Roman V Shaposhnik wrote: > why? Don't the tools handle reverse telecine of NTSC material properly? No. yuvkineco is top field first only. no effort has been made to fix that and the author hasn't been heard from in eons. and using yuvcorrect to shift the fields introduces what I call a phaseshift - you're basically moving the top field of Frame A into one of the fields of Frame B and so on. Temporal order is preserved but the frames now have fields from two different frames and this effectively destroys the 2:3 pattern which makes yuvkineco work harder and err more often. yuvkineco will produce *something* of course. But folks wonder why they have to edit the output of yuvkineco...? Anyhow there was a big discussion several years ago when I cared about such things - yuvcorrect top_forward is harmful. and with that I'm going to go back into hibernation. Steven Schultz -- ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list Mjpeg-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Top-forward for DV?
On Tue, 2009-06-23 at 21:38 -0700, Steven Boswell II wrote: > When I use my Canopus ADVC 300 to digitize a 24fps video that's been > converted to 30fps, I get a DV file that needs yuvkineco run on it in > order to reverse the telecine. Experience has shown me that I need to > pipe the video through "yuvcorrect -T TOP_FORWARD -T > INTERLACED_TOP_FIRST" before sending it to yuvkineco. Experience has > also shown me that I need to hand-edit the file produced by yuvkineco > (i.e. the one written by the "-C" option) for maximum quality. But > that means I need to look at the top-forward version of the video in > order to resolve ambiguities. > > Attached to this letter is a bash script that I use to do that > top-forward correction on a DV file. Is there a direct way of doing > this to a DV file? The file produced by this script can only be used > for review, i.e. since there's a DV->raw->DV conversion, I don't want > to use it for actual video generation. > > If there was a direct way of doing top-forward on a DV file, I could > save a lot of space and time. Does anyone know of a way? > You do know that DV is a bottom-field-first format and it has no physical ability to do TFF material? Now, let me get your process straight here: you have an analog tape interlaced NTSC material that is really a telecined version of a progressive 24fps one. Since, AFAIK, NTSC is also a BFF format, you get the DV stream that corresponds precisely to what's on tape. At that point you need to reverse telecine. You say that experience has taught you to reverse the fields order at this point. I wonder why? Don't the tools handle reverse telecine of NTSC material properly? Thanks, Roman. -- ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list Mjpeg-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
[Mjpeg-users] Top-forward for DV?
When I use my Canopus ADVC 300 to digitize a 24fps video that's been converted to 30fps, I get a DV file that needs yuvkineco run on it in order to reverse the telecine. Experience has shown me that I need to pipe the video through "yuvcorrect -T TOP_FORWARD -T INTERLACED_TOP_FIRST" before sending it to yuvkineco. Experience has also shown me that I need to hand-edit the file produced by yuvkineco (i.e. the one written by the "-C" option) for maximum quality. But that means I need to look at the top-forward version of the video in order to resolve ambiguities. Attached to this letter is a bash script that I use to do that top-forward correction on a DV file. Is there a direct way of doing this to a DV file? The file produced by this script can only be used for review, i.e. since there's a DV->raw->DV conversion, I don't want to use it for actual video generation. If there was a direct way of doing top-forward on a DV file, I could save a lot of space and time. Does anyone know of a way? Steven Boswell maketopforward.dv Description: video/dv -- ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list Mjpeg-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
