Re: Google Dart

2011-10-10 Thread BGB 

On 10/10/2011 6:56 PM, John Rose wrote:

On Oct 10, 2011, at 6:48 PM, Krystal Mok wrote:

It's cute when you can find DartEntry::InvokeDynamic(...) in Dart 
VM's code [1] :-)

(Just for fun; doesn't imply any connection with JVM's invokedynamic)


It's not derivative, and not very surprising to me:  I took over JSR 
292 from Gilad after he left Sun.  -- John




yep.


I will see, my message will probably be rejected by the list (I am no 
longer able to send emails from hotmail, so using gmail...).



sorry if there is no reason to care...
I am mostly describing a personal/hobby project below.


but, this thread seemed a little interesting, as from what little I have 
looked at it, Dart seems similar to some of my own efforts in language 
design (note: I am using a custom VM architecture for this, not 
particularly JVM-based).


essentially, my own effort has a currently JavaScript and ActionScript 
like core syntax (so a bit different from Dart here I guess), retaining 
optional dynamic types (and prototype objects + "dynamic classes"), 
while supporting explicit types (via annotations), and also type-inference.


unlike AS, it retains a fully-functional eval, and supports loading from 
source (these are presently its main use-cases, mostly it is a scripting 
language for a 3D engine written mostly in C and some C++ and ASM).


at the same time, it goes the other direction, and has "value classes", 
which support pass-by-value, copy-constructors, destructors, ... so can 
do the whole "RAII" thing (technically, they can also be 
dynamic-classes). sadly, "value classes" currently use a "value_class" 
keyword, which is ugly, but I lack any particularly better options at 
the moment.


this is an outgrowth of a prior "struct" feature, except that (formally) 
struct disallows inheritence or virtual methods (these are allowed for 
value-classes, whereas struct is intended for POD-types).


technically, they are still implemented as heap-allocated 
object-instances at run-time, but with the special feature that the VM 
will implicitly "delete" them whenever they go out of scope or are 
assigned-away (and create copies when passed/assigned/...). if no 
copy-constructor is defined, the object will simply be "cloned".


sadly, this feature is partly a way around the use of a slow 
conservative GC, but also has semantic uses.



there are some "original" features as well (mostly in terms of the 
scoping semantics and the C FFI). one feature I call "delegation" (which 
was sort of more inspired by Self) is used to implement many parts of 
the system (and is also a language feature).


basically, fields can be created and marked "delegate" which means 
accesses to fields/methods may go through them (transparently), and as 
such will not require being explicitly qualified. technically, 
delegated-to methods will retain the "this" from the source object, but 
may access their own fields via the "this" object (depending on 
specifics, delegation may also override methods or shadow fields). a 
delegate variable may also be accessed directly (like a normal field).


technically, the language has a toplevel and packages, but in another 
sense, neither exist:

both are presently implemented internally using objects and delegation.


also, most binding and type-specialization is handled late (for example, 
during "link-time" or at run-time), which allows for some semantic edge 
cases not so easily handled if this is done earlier (in the language 
frontend).


personally I don't think either delegation or the C FFI could likely be 
handled nearly as effectively if traditional early-bound semantics were 
required.


misc: the C FFI tries to be reasonably transparent (as-in, free of 
boilerplate) by importing metadata directly from C headers, and then 
generating glue-code as-needed at link-time/run-time. it is not perfect 
(still has some special 
annotations/heuristics/nasty-hacks/stupid-edge-cases/...), but it mostly 
works ok (it currently supports: 
functions/structs/typedefs/function-pointers/value-macros/... not fully 
supported: nested structs/unions, complex or function-like macros, 
certain cases involving lambdas and C function pointers, ...).


a tool and auto-generated code is also needed for exporting structs or 
functions to C (because, sadly, C doesn't have late-binding...).


ideally, in the future, there would be a direct C++ FFI, but this is a 
much more complex issue.



however, the technology is still far from mature, and I have no idea 
if/when/ever it will be sufficiently mature for "production use" (it 
works ok for my own uses, but then again I can also fix any problems 
which I run into as well, but people expecting a mature technology are 
likely not so forgiving towards bugs or incomplete/missing features in 
the VM/compiler/libraries/...).



not that it all really matters, it is just nice to see the world moving 
forwards...



or such...

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Re: Help with JIT talk for tomorrow

2011-10-10 Thread Charles K Pepperdine 
The ! means the method has exception handlers. I'm not sure that I understand 
Remi's answer. Here's some code from sharedRuntime.cpp. A number of other files 
mention PrintCompilation but it's late so I've not sorted out where the main 
compile is logged. If it's in compile.cpp I've completely missed it ;-)



  if (PrintCompilation) {
ttyLocker ttyl;
tty->print("---   n%s ", (method->is_synchronized() ? "s" : " "));
method->print_short_name(tty);
if (method->is_static()) {
  tty->print(" (static)");
}
tty->cr();
  }

Regards,
Kirk

On Oct 5, 2011, at 1:47 AM, Charles Oliver Nutter wrote:

> Hey all...I'm updating and expanding my talk on C2 and will be posting
> some questions. Hopefully there's someone out there who can answer
> them :)
> 
> First up... given this output from PrintCompilation, what do the "!"
> and "n" and "%" mean?
> 
> Also, in Java 7 there's now two numbers instead of one at the begining
> of the line...what are they?
> 
>   1401   70 java.util.concurrent.ConcurrentHashMap::hash (49 
> bytes)
>   1412   71 java.lang.String::indexOf (7 bytes)
>   1420   72   ! java.io.BufferedReader::readLine (304 bytes)
>   1420   73 sun.nio.cs.UTF_8$Decoder::decodeArrayLoop (543 bytes)
>   1422   42 java.util.zip.ZipCoder::getBytes (192 bytes)
> made not entrant
>   1435   74 n   java.lang.Object::hashCode (0 bytes)
>   1443   29   ! sun.misc.URLClassPath$JarLoader::getResource
> (91 bytes)   made zombie
>   1443   25 sun.misc.URLClassPath::getResource (74 bytes)
>  made zombie
>   1443   36 sun.misc.URLClassPath::getResource (74 bytes)
>  made not entrant
>   1443   43 java.util.zip.ZipCoder::encoder (35 bytes)
> made not entrant
>   1449   75 java.lang.String::endsWith (15 bytes)
>   16311 %   sun.misc.URLClassPath::getResource @ 39 (74 bytes)
>   1665   76 java.lang.ClassLoader::checkName (43 bytes)
> 
> - Charlie

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Re: Help with JIT talk for tomorrow

2011-10-10 Thread Charles K Pepperdine 
The ! means the method has exception handlers. I'm not sure that I understand 
Remi's answer. Here's some code from sharedRuntime.cpp. A number of other files 
mention PrintCompilation but it's late so I've not sorted out where the main 
compile is logged. If it's in compile.cpp I've completely missed it ;-)



  if (PrintCompilation) {
ttyLocker ttyl;
tty->print("---   n%s ", (method->is_synchronized() ? "s" : " "));
method->print_short_name(tty);
if (method->is_static()) {
  tty->print(" (static)");
}
tty->cr();
  }

Regards,
Kirk

On Oct 5, 2011, at 1:47 AM, Charles Oliver Nutter wrote:

> Hey all...I'm updating and expanding my talk on C2 and will be posting
> some questions. Hopefully there's someone out there who can answer
> them :)
> 
> First up... given this output from PrintCompilation, what do the "!"
> and "n" and "%" mean?
> 
> Also, in Java 7 there's now two numbers instead of one at the begining
> of the line...what are they?
> 
>   1401   70 java.util.concurrent.ConcurrentHashMap::hash (49 
> bytes)
>   1412   71 java.lang.String::indexOf (7 bytes)
>   1420   72   ! java.io.BufferedReader::readLine (304 bytes)
>   1420   73 sun.nio.cs.UTF_8$Decoder::decodeArrayLoop (543 bytes)
>   1422   42 java.util.zip.ZipCoder::getBytes (192 bytes)
> made not entrant
>   1435   74 n   java.lang.Object::hashCode (0 bytes)
>   1443   29   ! sun.misc.URLClassPath$JarLoader::getResource
> (91 bytes)   made zombie
>   1443   25 sun.misc.URLClassPath::getResource (74 bytes)
>  made zombie
>   1443   36 sun.misc.URLClassPath::getResource (74 bytes)
>  made not entrant
>   1443   43 java.util.zip.ZipCoder::encoder (35 bytes)
> made not entrant
>   1449   75 java.lang.String::endsWith (15 bytes)
>   16311 %   sun.misc.URLClassPath::getResource @ 39 (74 bytes)
>   1665   76 java.lang.ClassLoader::checkName (43 bytes)
> 
> - Charlie

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Re: Google Dart

2011-10-10 Thread John Rose 
On Oct 10, 2011, at 6:48 PM, Krystal Mok wrote:

> It's cute when you can find DartEntry::InvokeDynamic(...) in Dart VM's code 
> [1] :-)
> (Just for fun; doesn't imply any connection with JVM's invokedynamic)

It's not derivative, and not very surprising to me:  I took over JSR 292 from 
Gilad after he left Sun.  -- John

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Re: Google Dart

2011-10-10 Thread Krystal Mok 
It's cute when you can find DartEntry::InvokeDynamic(...) in Dart VM's code
[1] :-)
(Just for fun; doesn't imply any connection with JVM's invokedynamic)

[1]:
http://code.google.com/p/dart/source/browse/branches/bleeding_edge/dart/runtime/vm/code_generator.cc#619

-- Kris

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 3:06 AM, Attila Szegedi  wrote:

> Yup, seems like it's very easy to implement on top of the JVM with
> invokedynamic. it's actually almost uncannily suitable for just that…
>
> On Oct 10, 2011, at 11:58 AM, Charles Oliver Nutter wrote:
>
> > I agree it would be an interesting language on the JVM. It may be the
> > "dynamic Java" I've wanted to make for a long time, with the added
> > bonus of optional static types.
> >
> > This could almost be a weekend project atop invokedynamic.
> >
> > - Charlie
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Alexander Turner
> >  wrote:
> >> It is a very interesting idea. It take Java to js trechnology google
> created
> >> and uses it for a more flexible language. The mix of static and dynamic
> >> typing (much like vb does/did) has a proven track record of being much
> liked
> >> by day job programmers.
> >>
> >> I suspect, much more than Go, this language could shake things up.
> >>
> >> I also anoreason itshould not run very well on the jvm under invoke
> dynamic
> >> semantics.
> >>
> >> For the first time in a long time - a new language to get exciterd
> about...
> >>
> >> On Oct 10, 2011 8:02 AM, "Rémi Forax"  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 10/10/2011 09:51 AM, Marcus Lagergren wrote:
>  FYI,
> 
>  Google Dart now has a twitter account :
>  https://twitter.com/#!/dart_lang
>   and Website is up
>  http://www.dartlang.org/
> 
>  /M
> >>>
> >>> OMG, Dart is the next Java not the next Javascript !
> >>>
> >>> Rémi
> >>>
> >>> ___
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> >>
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> >>
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Re: dyn.js - invokedynamic-based js implementation

2011-10-10 Thread John Rose 
On Oct 10, 2011, at 7:12 AM, Douglas Campos wrote:

> Hello mlvm friends, just a heads up that dyn.js is released at 
> https://github.com/dynjs/dyn.js
> 
> feedback is more than welcome :)

Congratulations on getting this working...

Nice, crunchy uses of invokedynamic, ASM, ANTLR, and dynalang.  Remarkable 
leverage!

-- John
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Re: Google Dart

2011-10-10 Thread Attila Szegedi 
Yup, seems like it's very easy to implement on top of the JVM with 
invokedynamic. it's actually almost uncannily suitable for just that…

On Oct 10, 2011, at 11:58 AM, Charles Oliver Nutter wrote:

> I agree it would be an interesting language on the JVM. It may be the
> "dynamic Java" I've wanted to make for a long time, with the added
> bonus of optional static types.
> 
> This could almost be a weekend project atop invokedynamic.
> 
> - Charlie
> 
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Alexander Turner
>  wrote:
>> It is a very interesting idea. It take Java to js trechnology google created
>> and uses it for a more flexible language. The mix of static and dynamic
>> typing (much like vb does/did) has a proven track record of being much liked
>> by day job programmers.
>> 
>> I suspect, much more than Go, this language could shake things up.
>> 
>> I also anoreason itshould not run very well on the jvm under invoke dynamic
>> semantics.
>> 
>> For the first time in a long time - a new language to get exciterd about...
>> 
>> On Oct 10, 2011 8:02 AM, "Rémi Forax"  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2011 09:51 AM, Marcus Lagergren wrote:
 FYI,
 
 Google Dart now has a twitter account :
 https://twitter.com/#!/dart_lang
  and Website is up
 http://www.dartlang.org/
 
 /M
>>> 
>>> OMG, Dart is the next Java not the next Javascript !
>>> 
>>> Rémi
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> mlvm-dev mailing list
>>> mlvm-dev@openjdk.java.net
>>> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo/mlvm-dev
>> 
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>> 
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Re: Google Dart

2011-10-10 Thread Noctarius 
Yeah sounds quite interesting.

Chris

Am 10.10.2011 20:58, schrieb Charles Oliver Nutter:
> I agree it would be an interesting language on the JVM. It may
> be the "dynamic Java" I've wanted to make for a long time, with
> the added bonus of optional static types.
> 
> This could almost be a weekend project atop invokedynamic.
> 
> - Charlie
> 
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Alexander Turner 
>  wrote:
>> It is a very interesting idea. It take Java to js trechnology
>> google created and uses it for a more flexible language. The
>> mix of static and dynamic typing (much like vb does/did) has
>> a proven track record of being much liked by day job
>> programmers.
>> 
>> I suspect, much more than Go, this language could shake
>> things up.
>> 
>> I also anoreason itshould not run very well on the jvm under
>> invoke dynamic semantics.
>> 
>> For the first time in a long time - a new language to get
>> exciterd about...
>> 
>> On Oct 10, 2011 8:02 AM, "Rémi Forax" 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2011 09:51 AM, Marcus Lagergren wrote:
 FYI,
 
 Google Dart now has a twitter account : 
 https://twitter.com/#!/dart_lang 
  and Website is up 
 http://www.dartlang.org/
 
 /M
>>> 
>>> OMG, Dart is the next Java not the next Javascript !
>>> 
>>> Rémi
>>> 
>>> ___ mlvm-dev
>>> mailing list mlvm-dev@openjdk.java.net 
>>> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo/mlvm-dev
>> 
>> ___ mlvm-dev
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>> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo/mlvm-dev
>> 
>> 
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Re: Google Dart

2011-10-10 Thread Charles Oliver Nutter 
I agree it would be an interesting language on the JVM. It may be the
"dynamic Java" I've wanted to make for a long time, with the added
bonus of optional static types.

This could almost be a weekend project atop invokedynamic.

- Charlie

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Alexander Turner
 wrote:
> It is a very interesting idea. It take Java to js trechnology google created
> and uses it for a more flexible language. The mix of static and dynamic
> typing (much like vb does/did) has a proven track record of being much liked
> by day job programmers.
>
> I suspect, much more than Go, this language could shake things up.
>
> I also anoreason itshould not run very well on the jvm under invoke dynamic
> semantics.
>
> For the first time in a long time - a new language to get exciterd about...
>
> On Oct 10, 2011 8:02 AM, "Rémi Forax"  wrote:
>>
>> On 10/10/2011 09:51 AM, Marcus Lagergren wrote:
>> > FYI,
>> >
>> > Google Dart now has a twitter account :
>> > https://twitter.com/#!/dart_lang
>> >  and Website is up
>> > http://www.dartlang.org/
>> >
>> > /M
>>
>> OMG, Dart is the next Java not the next Javascript !
>>
>> Rémi
>>
>> ___
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>> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo/mlvm-dev
>
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dyn.js - invokedynamic-based js implementation

2011-10-10 Thread Douglas Campos 
Hello mlvm friends, just a heads up that dyn.js is released at 
https://github.com/dynjs/dyn.js

feedback is more than welcome :)

cheers!
-- qmx
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Re: Google Dart

2011-10-10 Thread Krystal Mok 
Rhino is getting a renewal https://github.com/mozilla/rhino
dyn.js is another project that implements JavaScript in Java 7. You might be
interested in that as well: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/dynjs

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Alexander Turner <
nerdscent...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> So rhino has been update for java 7? Wow I must take a look.
> On Oct 10, 2011 1:17 PM, "Rémi Forax"  wrote:
>
>>  In fact, there is already a frontend in Java:
>>
>> http://code.google.com/p/dart/source/browse/#svn%2Fbranches%2Fbleeding_edge%2Fdart%2Fcompiler%2Fjava%2Fcom%2Fgoogle%2Fdart%2Fcompiler
>>
>> It's used to compile to javascript but it can be adapted to generate
>> bytecode at runtime.
>> So yes, it seems simple (or not that hard) to write a runtime using
>> invokedynamic.
>>
>> BTW, you can currently use Rhino for that.
>>
>> Rémi
>>
>> On 10/10/2011 10:14 AM, Alexander Turner wrote:
>>
>> It is a very interesting idea. It take Java to js trechnology google
>> created and uses it for a more flexible language. The mix of static and
>> dynamic typing (much like vb does/did) has a proven track record of being
>> much liked by day job programmers.
>>
>> I suspect, much more than Go, this language could shake things up.
>>
>> I also anoreason itshould not run very well on the jvm under invoke
>> dynamic semantics.
>>
>> For the first time in a long time - a new language to get exciterd
>> about...
>> On Oct 10, 2011 8:02 AM, "Rémi Forax"  wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/10/2011 09:51 AM, Marcus Lagergren wrote:
>>> > FYI,
>>> >
>>> > Google Dart now has a twitter account :
>>> > https://twitter.com/#!/dart_lang
>>> >  and Website is up
>>> > http://www.dartlang.org/
>>> >
>>> > /M
>>>
>>> OMG, Dart is the next Java not the next Javascript !
>>>
>>> Rémi
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> mlvm-dev@openjdk.java.net
>>> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo/mlvm-dev
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: Google Dart

2011-10-10 Thread Alexander Turner 
So rhino has been update for java 7? Wow I must take a look.
On Oct 10, 2011 1:17 PM, "Rémi Forax"  wrote:

>  In fact, there is already a frontend in Java:
>
> http://code.google.com/p/dart/source/browse/#svn%2Fbranches%2Fbleeding_edge%2Fdart%2Fcompiler%2Fjava%2Fcom%2Fgoogle%2Fdart%2Fcompiler
>
> It's used to compile to javascript but it can be adapted to generate
> bytecode at runtime.
> So yes, it seems simple (or not that hard) to write a runtime using
> invokedynamic.
>
> BTW, you can currently use Rhino for that.
>
> Rémi
>
> On 10/10/2011 10:14 AM, Alexander Turner wrote:
>
> It is a very interesting idea. It take Java to js trechnology google
> created and uses it for a more flexible language. The mix of static and
> dynamic typing (much like vb does/did) has a proven track record of being
> much liked by day job programmers.
>
> I suspect, much more than Go, this language could shake things up.
>
> I also anoreason itshould not run very well on the jvm under invoke dynamic
> semantics.
>
> For the first time in a long time - a new language to get exciterd about...
> On Oct 10, 2011 8:02 AM, "Rémi Forax"  wrote:
>
>> On 10/10/2011 09:51 AM, Marcus Lagergren wrote:
>> > FYI,
>> >
>> > Google Dart now has a twitter account :
>> > https://twitter.com/#!/dart_lang
>> >  and Website is up
>> > http://www.dartlang.org/
>> >
>> > /M
>>
>> OMG, Dart is the next Java not the next Javascript !
>>
>> Rémi
>>
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>
>
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Re: Google Dart

2011-10-10 Thread Rémi Forax 

In fact, there is already a frontend in Java:
http://code.google.com/p/dart/source/browse/#svn%2Fbranches%2Fbleeding_edge%2Fdart%2Fcompiler%2Fjava%2Fcom%2Fgoogle%2Fdart%2Fcompiler

It's used to compile to javascript but it can be adapted to generate 
bytecode at runtime.
So yes, it seems simple (or not that hard) to write a runtime using 
invokedynamic.


BTW, you can currently use Rhino for that.

Rémi

On 10/10/2011 10:14 AM, Alexander Turner wrote:


It is a very interesting idea. It take Java to js trechnology google 
created and uses it for a more flexible language. The mix of static 
and dynamic typing (much like vb does/did) has a proven track record 
of being much liked by day job programmers.


I suspect, much more than Go, this language could shake things up.

I also anoreason itshould not run very well on the jvm under invoke 
dynamic semantics.


For the first time in a long time - a new language to get exciterd 
about...


On Oct 10, 2011 8:02 AM, "Rémi Forax" > wrote:


On 10/10/2011 09:51 AM, Marcus Lagergren wrote:
> FYI,
>
> Google Dart now has a twitter account :
> https://twitter.com/#!/dart_lang

>  and Website is up
> http://www.dartlang.org/
>
> /M

OMG, Dart is the next Java not the next Javascript !

Rémi

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Re: Google Dart - processing-js

2011-10-10 Thread Xerxes Rånby 
2011-10-10 10:14, Alexander Turner skrev:
> It is a very interesting idea. It take Java to js trechnology google created
> and uses it for a more flexible language. The mix of static and dynamic
> typing (much like vb does/did) has a proven track record of being much liked
> by day job programmers.
>
> I suspect, much more than Go, this language could shake things up.

Note that you can remove all type information in the dart code and still 
compile it.

>
> I also anoreason itshould not run very well on the jvm under invoke dynamic
> semantics.
>
> For the first time in a long time - a new language to get exciterd about...
> On Oct 10, 2011 8:02 AM, "Rémi Forax"  wrote:
>
>> On 10/10/2011 09:51 AM, Marcus Lagergren wrote:
>>> FYI,
>>>
>>> Google Dart now has a twitter account :
>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dart_lang
>>>   and Website is up
>>> http://www.dartlang.org/
>>>
>>> /M
>>
>> OMG, Dart is the next Java not the next Javascript !
>>
>> Rémi
>>

Dart looks to me like a processing-js copy. :)
http://processingjs.org/reference

Try out this processing-js webbrowser IDE:
http://matrix.senecac.on.ca/~asalga/pjswebide/index.php

Cheers
Xerxes
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Re: Google Dart

2011-10-10 Thread Alexander Turner 
It is a very interesting idea. It take Java to js trechnology google created
and uses it for a more flexible language. The mix of static and dynamic
typing (much like vb does/did) has a proven track record of being much liked
by day job programmers.

I suspect, much more than Go, this language could shake things up.

I also anoreason itshould not run very well on the jvm under invoke dynamic
semantics.

For the first time in a long time - a new language to get exciterd about...
On Oct 10, 2011 8:02 AM, "Rémi Forax"  wrote:

> On 10/10/2011 09:51 AM, Marcus Lagergren wrote:
> > FYI,
> >
> > Google Dart now has a twitter account :
> > https://twitter.com/#!/dart_lang
> >  and Website is up
> > http://www.dartlang.org/
> >
> > /M
>
> OMG, Dart is the next Java not the next Javascript !
>
> Rémi
>
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Re: Google Dart

2011-10-10 Thread Rémi Forax 
On 10/10/2011 09:51 AM, Marcus Lagergren wrote:
> FYI,
>
> Google Dart now has a twitter account : 
> https://twitter.com/#!/dart_lang 
>  and Website is up 
> http://www.dartlang.org/
>
> /M

OMG, Dart is the next Java not the next Javascript !

Rémi

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Google Dart

2011-10-10 Thread Marcus Lagergren 
FYI,

Google Dart now has a twitter account : https://twitter.com/#!/dart_lang and 
Website is up http://www.dartlang.org/

/M

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