Re: [MMouse]: whenever you see fit
man.. i know we had this discussion back in december, but its so true, and often times i forget how good the lyrics actually are, because i get so caught up in listening to all these MM bootlegs, and its a sad thing to say, but all the songs they play live hardly mean anything compared to all the studio gems on long drive and many of the 7"'s. talking shit about a pretty sunset still gets me every-time. its like.. isaac peers inside all of these confused people and brings out what they are trying to say.. at least for me. although im not really all that confused.. but i defintely am not who i want to be, and i probably will not ever be. I have these crazy goals, you know? to try and be uber-human, or to try and rise somehow into a higher state of conscious thought, to observe and collect information about the world around me and use it to understand why things are the way they are, and isaac seems to want something quite similar. its a shame hes gotta be such a boozehag sometimes. youd think that, for someone who seems to at least have an idea of what he wants out of life, he could stay focused on it instead of getting fuckin' trashed all the time instead. but, to each his own. so yeah.. talking shit. and oh hey.. everytime i listen to mechanical birds, theres that one part where everything kinda stops and theres these two squeals, and then everything kicks back in again. does this make anyone else tingle uncontrollably? hey alright i might be goddamned, russ On Tue, 8 Jun 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: kristin, i totally agree with you on the lyrics. "talking shit about a pretty sunset" is me to a T. i always make my mind up and feel so sure about it, and then later i completely change everything about me, right mark? nirra
Re: [MMouse]: more on libertarians
The following is just way too long. Oh, well. First, I apologize for the uneducated comment and for personal attacks. Now, to respond. First, the primacy of the individual, carried to its utmost conclusion, is Anarchy The governments role is to provide protection (police force and Army) so that the have-nots cannot, as an exercise of their "individual" free will, come and take away the haves' stuff. Already a convenient limitation on total "liberty." Your statements are true, but indicate a misconception. To clarify the individual rights issue: Every individual should have the right to live every aspect of their life as they choose, unless their doing so infringes on the rights of another person. In other words, no matter what I do, there should not be any institution that can stop me, so long as I am not harming any other person or his property. If I carry a gun, for instance, I am infringing on the rights of no one, but if I shoot someone, I must be held accountable. That's individual rights. (By the way, I don't mean to start some kind of gun control debate, it's just a good example.) And there's more. Most libertarians I have spoken with ignore the benefits that they, as "individuals," receive from living in a "society." Government is integral in both ensuring, and yes, limiting the benefits individuals receive from living in a society. Libertarians seem to want to retain the material wealth that government enabled them to obtain, while eliminating any government limits on there benefits. The only legitimate function of government is to protect the rights of the individual. Government does not enable individuals to obtain the benefits of society except by limiting its control over the private sector. Therefore, it is a lack of government that enables individuals, not the government itself. The libertarian argument is that government should not be allowed the authority to control individuals or the free market in the first place. As for your economic argument, it contains more propaganda than fact, the perfect free market is a myth, and the history of privatization belies your claims of invariable improvement (especially for the poor). It's basic, fundamental economic law. There is no history of privatization in America, only a history of socialism and the government theft of private property. Education, like every other major industry, should be subjected to the free market, where if a business does not improve it fails. Not only would quality go up, the poor would actually be able to afford a good education, because they actually get to keep their money! Under the current system, the poor are forced to send their children to astoundingly bad inner-city public schools because their income is being stolen to support them, and they can afford to pay for the public schools as well as a private school. Only under the current system do the rich have an advantage. Besides this argument against public education, there is the fact that public education is a violation of two of our most important rights-- freedom of religion and freedom of speech. You see, it is absolutely impossible to educate at any level without presenting a social, political, and religious viewpoint. Neutrality is absolutely impossible. Bias is inherant. Our current public schools present Marxist social, political, and religious viewpoints. They teach that humanity should be divided into groups of people with one group deserving protection at the expense of the rights of others, which is a cornerstone of Marx's political and social beliefs, and they teach an atheist or secular humanist religious viewpoint, another of Marx's beliefs. The absence of religion, whether that religion be Christianity or Judaism or Islam, is a religious viewpoint... a secular one. Then, every American, whether they agree with the viewpoint or not, is forced to fund it. They do not have the option to say "I disagree what is being taught at public schools, so I choose not to fund it." This is a violation of free speech and religious right. In a private system, you would have the option of funding opinions you agree with and not funding those you disagree with. A Muslim man, for instance, would not be forced to fun the propagation of Christian doctrines. As for your concluding arguments, I agree equality cannot be achieved, but that does not mean it is not to be sought. It must be sought. The only way to seek it is by making sure that every single individual is equal protected, and no individual recieves more protection by government that another, which is a defining feature of socialism. Your belief that the poor have more rights is baseless, although I can see where you might get that belief, what with the efforts of the GOP to make the American public believe that it's true. This country was founded on an ideal of equality of opportunity,
[MMouse]: JULY 4TH THING .... HELP!
Hey there ... I need to know everything about the July 4th thing, the name of the show, who will be playing, ticket prices, times, place, etc etc etc. EVERYTHING!!! thanx Guddie
Re: [MMouse]: more on libertarians
Okay, firstly your argument is based on bullshit Their children may soon learn that a life a crime pays, which is not a hard lesson to learn when attending schools that are based on theft, the redistribution of wealth Okay basic economics Entrepreneurs/businessmen can ONLY make a profit if they give Mr/Ms. working class a SMALL percentage of the wealth they themselves(working class) have created in the form of wages. Therefore whenever you work your boss STEALS from you. FACT! Crime does pay the whole capitalist economic system is based on stealing. The only legitimate function of government is to protect the rights of the individual Okay you try organising a strike in some fucking sweat shop and you'll see who the police are gonna protect! It's basic, fundamental economic law. There is no history of privatization in America, only a history of socialism and the government theft of private property. The government theft of private property...from whom? From the minority white land owners who have the blood of 10 million native americans on there hands! Socialism is whereby the working class have control of the economy thru workers co-operatives and "elect" there delegates which are recallable. That is socialism. Not only would quality go up, the poor would actually be able to afford a good education, because they actually get to keep their money! Do you think that the ruling class(the rich fuckers) want the average working class to get good education??!! Who will work in the factories, mines,railways, constructionthe only way to get a higher paid job is to work in NON-PRODUCTIVE work (office work). Between 40 and 44 million adults in America are functionally illiterate thats around 20% illeteracy in cuba is 6%!! (even though cuba is not a socialist country but a government based on a despotic mode of production) Our current public schools present Marxist social, political, and religious viewpoints. You seriously telling me that teachers are reading extracts of CAPITAL or the COMMUNIST PARTY MANIFESTO in schools! I do not believe that the poor have more rights. I believe that every person, whether poor or rich, should have the exact same rights. Welfare systems, for instance rob from the rich and give to the poor. No matter how much sugar you coat that with, it's still robbery. It infringes on the rights of the rich to do with their property what they see fit. ALL socialist programs do this. Oh right welfare systems rob from the rich to give to the poor. How the fuck did the rich get rich if they didn't robbed from the only class that create wealth THE WORKING CLASS! Remember a Politician is only a failed businessman Peace
[MMouse]: lyrics
nirra- talking shit about a pretty sunset always kills me too! it's so happy/sad...not an easy emotion to have or to capture, but i have it and that song (along with many other MM songs) captures it.- kirstin
[MMouse]: Old idea
Hey, Did anyone ever agree on an insert for the subject line that would allow for sorting list mail with/without MM content? Somebody must be interested in filtering list mail. I didn't care before when I belonged to just a few lists, but now it takes 45,987 hours to sort thru junk mail. This way, the MM list doesn't get too boring during those times when there is no news, and those who want the bare minimum can get that as well. Too picky?? How about an 'MM' on any subject line with MM content? I appreciate all commments. Ryan
Re: [MMouse]: Old idea
or, how about nmm on all absolutely non modest mouse related mail? most lists ive been on do something like that... Karina
[MMouse]: Re: Digest modestmouse.v001.n369
Hi! Oh, by the way: which is the best Built to Spill album? I'd like to know their music... plaaase dont rekindle that discussion. sorry, im just sick of hearing people argue about petty differences in opinion. I know what you mean, I never meant to start a civil war down here =) That's because I've found this site with some mp3s off their albums, so there. i could sit down and interpret the lyrics for you, but sorry. im too tired right now. That's ok, yarsrevenge already did it... thanks anyway! cheers, -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- p. giglio - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - icq#: 3319721 http://milliways.netfly.com.br .x. broken hearts want broken necks .x. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: [MMouse]: whenever you see fit
kristin, i totally agree with you on the lyrics. "talking shit about a pretty sunset" is me to a T. i always make my mind up and feel so sure about it, and then later i completely change everything about me, right mark? where is this song from? L. Plagarism is necessary. Progress implies it. - Guy Debord, plagarising Issadore DuCasse.
Re: [MMouse]: show me the perfect free market, and I'll sho
So, I'm uneducated, eh? We'll come to that later. The libertarian party is so named because it is the only party which recognizes the sovereignty of the individual, in other words, liberty. Ok, mr educated. explain how the sovereignty of the individual benefits a 3 week old child. Don't get me wrong, I am an anarchist that believes in self determination - but you have to take into account that we are communal in some aspects. I am not advocating some kind of communism, just recognition of the facts: like that it is easy for men to be libertarian, but women have more of an ethic of care regards themselves, their offspring, and the community. Libertarianism cannot and does not address these issues at all. L. Plagarism is necessary. Progress implies it. - Guy Debord, plagarising Issadore DuCasse.
Re: [MMouse]: Fwd: lyrics for Whenever You See Fit
for about 2 months, everynmorning I would wake up everymorning, drink strong black brewed coffee with my flatmates, smoke a joint or two and listen to this song. It's s good.and even better stoned. L. heres the best i can do .. isaac is tabbed in Whenever You See Fit: you and me whenever we go wrong nothing is clearwake up early and you live to regret and you tell the truth and your talking on the telephone whenever you see fitlooking at yourself like your all alone wake up early and you live to regret spend some time whenever you go wrong wake up early and you live to regret tell the truth wake up early and you live to regret whenever you see fit wake up early and you live to regret well youre talking on the telephone everythings wrong looking at yourself like your all alone and everything you ever did wake up early and you live to regret everythings wrong talking on the telephone talking like taco bell you go to bed early and youll talk to your pillow you go to bed early and youll talk to your pillow you go to bed early and youll talk to your pillow you go to bed early and youll talk to your pillow you and me whenever we see fit nothing is cleartalking on the telephone looking at ourselves like were all alone and everything you ever said wake up early and youll live to regret it wake up early and youll live to regret it they just repeat this stuff ruxx Plagarism is necessary. Progress implies it. - Guy Debord, plagarising Issadore DuCasse.
Re: [MMouse]: show me the perfect free market, and I'll sho
Ok, mr educated. explain how the sovereignty of the individual benefits a 3 week old child. You'll have to clarify this for me... Don't get me wrong, I am an anarchist that believes in self determination - but you have to take into account that we are communal in some aspects. I am not advocating some kind of communism, just recognition of the facts: like that it is easy for men to be libertarian, but women have more of an ethic of care regards themselves, their offspring, and the community. Libertarianism cannot and does not address these issues at all. Libertarianism is a political doctrine, and is not meant to address every societal issue. What I think you are doing here is blurring the lines between society and government. I don't advocate that every individual should fend for himself and not do anything to benefit the community or society as a whole... in fact I abhor that. The point of libertarianism is that the government has no legitimate purpose other than to protect the rights of the individual. Once the rights of every individual have been secured, then every single group of people (racial or otherwise) will have equal rights and equal opportunity. The doctrine is purely political. Morally, I think all humans have an obligation to be selfless and to help others as much as possible, just not through government, because government is synonymous with force, and force is bad. Ernie Fata
[MMouse]: long drive
is the "this is a long drive" double lp out of print? or is the person bidding on it on ebay just dumb? (it's up to $23) johnny.
Re: [MMouse]: long drive/Ebay Trickery
In a message dated 6/9/99 12:09:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: is the "this is a long drive" double lp out of print? or is the person bidding on it on ebay just dumb? (it's up to $23) johnny. I do not know the answer to this, but I do know that so many people on ebay will claim that something is "rare" or "hard to find" when in actuality this isn't true at all. It's easy to sucker someone. If you think about how many people actually use Ebay , i guess its pretty safe to presume that a lot of people are either unaware of the true rarity or too lazy to find out. astro
