[Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-28 Thread Jerry Houston
Please be assured that I'm not poking fun at mono, or Linux.  I use
Windows because I have to, and I use Linux because I want to.

I'm a full-time .NET developer at work, and I really want mono to be to
Linux what .NET is to Windows.  However, I'm finding it really slow
getting started with mono, because I haven't yet found anything I can
use to create winform applications visually.  Does such a thing exist
for mono?

I can build an application using Visual Studio, and then port it to mono
without a lot of trouble, but every time I've tried to *start* an
application using mono, I end up frustrated and quit.  I just downloaded
the latest version, thinking that I'd be pleasantly surprised this time,
but monodevelop still seems like little more than a fairly smart code
editor.

Surely, there must be a mono equivalent to Visual Studio somewhere, but
I haven't found it yet.  Something with a visual designer, and
Intellisense-type help, and so on.  Can someone point me in the right
direction?

For a change, I'd like to be able to create something on my Linux
machines, then port it to Windows, instead of the other way around.
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-28 Thread Juan C. Olivares
You should try MonoDevelop. It doesn't have many features as Visual Studio,
but its development is getting faster every day.

www.monodevelop.com

Regards,
Juan C. Olivares

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:46 PM, Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Please be assured that I'm not poking fun at mono, or Linux.  I use
> Windows because I have to, and I use Linux because I want to.
>
> I'm a full-time .NET developer at work, and I really want mono to be to
> Linux what .NET is to Windows.  However, I'm finding it really slow
> getting started with mono, because I haven't yet found anything I can
> use to create winform applications visually.  Does such a thing exist
> for mono?
>
> I can build an application using Visual Studio, and then port it to mono
> without a lot of trouble, but every time I've tried to *start* an
> application using mono, I end up frustrated and quit.  I just downloaded
> the latest version, thinking that I'd be pleasantly surprised this time,
> but monodevelop still seems like little more than a fairly smart code
> editor.
>
> Surely, there must be a mono equivalent to Visual Studio somewhere, but
> I haven't found it yet.  Something with a visual designer, and
> Intellisense-type help, and so on.  Can someone point me in the right
> direction?
>
> For a change, I'd like to be able to create something on my Linux
> machines, then port it to Windows, instead of the other way around.
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-28 Thread Jeffrey Stedfast
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 18:46 -0700, Jerry Houston wrote:
> Please be assured that I'm not poking fun at mono, or Linux.  I use
> Windows because I have to, and I use Linux because I want to.
> 
> I'm a full-time .NET developer at work, and I really want mono to be to
> Linux what .NET is to Windows.  However, I'm finding it really slow
> getting started with mono, because I haven't yet found anything I can
> use to create winform applications visually.  Does such a thing exist
> for mono?
> 
> I can build an application using Visual Studio, and then port it to mono
> without a lot of trouble, but every time I've tried to *start* an
> application using mono, I end up frustrated and quit.  I just downloaded
> the latest version, thinking that I'd be pleasantly surprised this time,
> but monodevelop still seems like little more than a fairly smart code
> editor.
> 
> Surely, there must be a mono equivalent to Visual Studio somewhere, but
> I haven't found it yet.  Something with a visual designer, and
> Intellisense-type help, and so on.  Can someone point me in the right
> direction?

MonoDevelop has all of these things, including a visual designer, the
only catch is that the designer is for Gtk# rather than Windows.Forms.

There was some work a while back to implement a Windows.Forms designer
for MonoDevelop as a Google Summer of Code project, but I don't remember
what ever came of it.

Jeff


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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-28 Thread Andreia Gaita
On 10/29/08, Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  I'm a full-time .NET developer at work, and I really want mono to be to
>  Linux what .NET is to Windows.  However, I'm finding it really slow
>  getting started with mono, because I haven't yet found anything I can
>  use to create winform applications visually.  Does such a thing exist
>  for mono?

For winforms, nope. There is a designer, but it's not integrated into
MonoDevelop yet.

>  I can build an application using Visual Studio, and then port it to mono
>  without a lot of trouble, but every time I've tried to *start* an
>  application using mono, I end up frustrated and quit.  I just downloaded
>  the latest version, thinking that I'd be pleasantly surprised this time,
>  but monodevelop still seems like little more than a fairly smart code
>  editor.

Well, to make a VS-like IDE takes a lot of work. MonoDevelop currently
supports code completion (Intelissense in vs-speak), code folding,
refactoring, makefile and msbuild support among others, a visual
designer for gtk#, asp.net designer, debugger support and a host of
other features. Of course, if you don't use any of these things and
the only thing you want is a winforms designer, obviously you're going
to be disapointed. OTOH, if the only thing you use on VS is the
winforms designer, then you're missing out on a lot of very useful
features (most of which MD also supports).

--
andreia gaita
mono hacker
http://www.worldofcoding.com
http://mono-project.com
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-29 Thread Jerry Houston
Andreia Gaita wrote:
> On 10/29/08, Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>>  I'm a full-time .NET developer at work, and I really want mono to be to
>>  Linux what .NET is to Windows.  However, I'm finding it really slow
>>  getting started with mono, because I haven't yet found anything I can
>>  use to create winform applications visually.  Does such a thing exist
>>  for mono?
>> 
>
> For winforms, nope. There is a designer, but it's not integrated into
> MonoDevelop yet.
>   

Thanks to all for your comments.  Maybe all I need is to know how to
start the designer.  In VS, it's just a matter of opting to "view code"
or launch the designer for the same winform .cs file. 

I'm a little confused about the apparent terminology difference between
Windows and mono.  I realize that graphics are implemented by GDI on one
and GTK on the other, but when I design a winform on the .NET side, it
ends up implemented using GTK in mono.  At least, that's been my
experience when I've moved utilities I've written for .NET to mono.

You say, "For winforms, nope."  Does that mean that .NET winforms are
called something else in mono?

Whatever it is that .NET winforms become when they're ported to mono -
THAT'S what I need a designer to create.  Or I need to keep creating
everything on the .NET side, and that's what I'm trying to get away from.
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-29 Thread Adam Tauno Williams
> I'm a little confused about the apparent terminology difference between
> Windows and mono.  I realize that graphics are implemented by GDI on one
> and GTK on the other, 

No, this is not correct.  Winforms and Gtk are different UI tookits
entirely.  Both are cross platform (but you'll have to install Gtk on a
Win32 box vs. Winforms support which is native).

> but when I design a winform on the .NET side, it
> ends up implemented using GTK in mono. 

No.

> You say, "For winforms, nope."  Does that mean that .NET winforms are
> called something else in mono?

No, they are still "Winforms",  and they work.  But there is no tool for
designing the UI of a Winforms application graphically.  

There are tools for desining the UI of a Gtk# application;  the name of
the tool is "Stetic" and it is included in recent Monodevlop packages.

> Whatever it is that .NET winforms become when they're ported to mono -

They remain just what they are.

> THAT'S what I need a designer to create.  Or I need to keep creating
> everything on the .NET side, and that's what I'm trying to get away from.

If your building Winforms applications then you probably have to stick
with VS.
-- 
  Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client.
 Contact:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/

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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-29 Thread Adam Tauno Williams
> Well, to make a VS-like IDE takes a lot of work. MonoDevelop currently
> supports code completion (Intelissense in vs-speak), code folding,
> refactoring, makefile and msbuild support among others, a visual
> designer for gtk#, 

The Gtk# designer is very pleasant to use.

> asp.net designer, 

Is this working, currently?  I don't think it is.
-- 
  Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client.
 Contact:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/

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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-29 Thread Petit Eric
http://www.mono-project.com/WinForms_Designer


2008/10/29 Adam Tauno Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> Well, to make a VS-like IDE takes a lot of work. MonoDevelop currently
>> supports code completion (Intelissense in vs-speak), code folding,
>> refactoring, makefile and msbuild support among others, a visual
>> designer for gtk#,
>
> The Gtk# designer is very pleasant to use.
>
>> asp.net designer,
>
> Is this working, currently?  I don't think it is.
> --
>  Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client.
>  Contact:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/
>
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-- 

Cordially.

Small Eric Quotations of the days:
---
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professional, say you that:
Amateurs built the arch of Noah, and professionals the Titanic.
---

Few people are done for independence, it is the privilege of the powerful ones.
---

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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-29 Thread Andreia Gaita
On 10/29/08, Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  I'm a little confused about the apparent terminology difference between
>  Windows and mono.  I realize that graphics are implemented by GDI on one
>  and GTK on the other, but when I design a winform on the .NET side, it
>  ends up implemented using GTK in mono.  At least, that's been my
>  experience when I've moved utilities I've written for .NET to mono.

Winforms, as you rightly put it, is implemented with gdi on
.NET/Windows. On Mono, we also use gdi. More specifically, on
Mono/Linux we have a library called libgdiplus which mimicks gdi+, and
on Mono/Windows we use gdi+ directly. Either way, there is nothing of
gtk on Winforms. All of the winforms api is implemented using C#, all
the controls, classes, event loop, etc, using gdi+/libgdiplus for
drawing.

>  Whatever it is that .NET winforms become when they're ported to mono -
>  THAT'S what I need a designer to create.  Or I need to keep creating
>  everything on the .NET side, and that's what I'm trying to get away from.

They don't become anything other than winforms when they're ported to
mono, really. An app made on windows that uses winforms can run
directly on Mono without porting (well, as long as you follow some
basic design guidelines and don't pinvoke win32 calls directly), since
the Mono winforms api is a direct match, as much as we can make it,
bugs and all, to what your app is expecting to have available.

As a side note, wrt the designer, the technical issue with having it
in MonoDevelop is that MD is a gtk# app. Now Gtk# and Winforms are two
completely separate toolkits, each with their own distinct event loop,
and embedding a winforms designer (which forces you to run a winforms
application loop to be able to interact with the controls you're
designing) within a gtk app which is running a gtk main loop poses
rather interesting problems. Having both toolkits running at the same
time on the same "canvas" so you can visually design your winforms
controls is a challenge. That's why it's not quite done yet,
unfortunately.

I understand your desire to move to linux and ditch windows, I did
that myself at one point. Fortunately, when I did it, I didn't have to
design winforms anymore so I didn't miss that part much. On the other
hand, I still run windows side by side with linux, since developing
winforms requires compatibility testing on it's original platform, and
some times I make apps concurrently on both platforms, when I need a
particular vs feature to make the work go faster. It's not that hard
to do development of an app on both systems at the same time, you just
need to get used to synching code between the two so you can rapidly
switch, and will probably ease your transition a bit.

--
andreia gaita
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-29 Thread Jerry Houston
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> THAT'S what I need a designer to create.  Or I need to keep creating
>> everything on the .NET side, and that's what I'm trying to get away from.
>> 
>
> If your building Winforms applications then you probably have to stick
> with VS.
>   


Thanks for all the great information!  You sure cleared up a lot of
confusion about mono.
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-29 Thread Pedro Alves
Try X-Develop - http://www.omnicore.com/en/xdevelop.htm

X-develop supports .NET, Mono and the Java platform on Windows, Linux and
Mac OS X and comes with support for C#, Java, JSP, J#, Visual Basic .NET,
JavaScript, XML and HTML. X-develop's multi-language code-analysis engine
offers an open API to support arbitrary programming languages.

*GUI designer*
Support for WindowsForms 1.0 & 2.0, GTK#, Swing and AWT
Creates resizable, resolution and font size independent GUIs

*Mono*
Support for .NET development on Unix/Linux with Mono



2008/10/28 Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Please be assured that I'm not poking fun at mono, or Linux.  I use
> Windows because I have to, and I use Linux because I want to.
>
> I'm a full-time .NET developer at work, and I really want mono to be to
> Linux what .NET is to Windows.  However, I'm finding it really slow
> getting started with mono, because I haven't yet found anything I can
> use to create winform applications visually.  Does such a thing exist
> for mono?
>
> I can build an application using Visual Studio, and then port it to mono
> without a lot of trouble, but every time I've tried to *start* an
> application using mono, I end up frustrated and quit.  I just downloaded
> the latest version, thinking that I'd be pleasantly surprised this time,
> but monodevelop still seems like little more than a fairly smart code
> editor.
>
> Surely, there must be a mono equivalent to Visual Studio somewhere, but
> I haven't found it yet.  Something with a visual designer, and
> Intellisense-type help, and so on.  Can someone point me in the right
> direction?
>
> For a change, I'd like to be able to create something on my Linux
> machines, then port it to Windows, instead of the other way around.
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-29 Thread Jerry Houston
Andreia Gaita wrote:
> I understand your desire to move to linux and ditch windows, I did
> that myself at one point. Fortunately, when I did it, I didn't have to
> design winforms anymore so I didn't miss that part much. On the other
> hand, I still run windows side by side with linux, since developing
> winforms requires compatibility testing on it's original platform, and
> some times I make apps concurrently on both platforms, when I need a
> particular vs feature to make the work go faster. It's not that hard
> to do development of an app on both systems at the same time, you just
> need to get used to synching code between the two so you can rapidly
> switch, and will probably ease your transition a bit.
>   

Thanks for your comments.  Apparently there's a winform designer in the
works, although not quite ready for "prime time" yet.  Since I don't
program commercially for Linux, I can afford to wait for it to appear. 

Working with mono winforms here at home currently requires (dual)
booting my workstation into Windows, modifying the winform, then
rebooting Linux to work with it in mono.  Then repeating the process
whenever any little changes are needed.  Rinse and repeat.

That's why I stick my head up now and then, looking for a winform
designer that works in Linux.  Since mono 2.0 was released, I thought it
was time to look again.

The idea of a GTK+ designer is interesting as well.  I plan to look into
that too, now that I know about it.


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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-29 Thread Jerry Houston
Pedro Alves wrote:
> Try X-Develop - http://www.omnicore.com/en/xdevelop.htm

I just downloaded the 20-day trial.  Thanks for the tip!

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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-29 Thread Jerry Houston
Petit Eric wrote:
> http://www.mono-project.com/WinForms_Designer
>   

Yeah!  Now, that's what I'm talking about. 

I'll check back later ... hopefully it will become available via
something other than svn when it's closer to stable.  Thanks!
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-29 Thread Petit Eric
2008/10/29 Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Andreia Gaita wrote:
>> I understand your desire to move to linux and ditch windows, I did
>> that myself at one point. Fortunately, when I did it, I didn't have to
>> design winforms anymore so I didn't miss that part much. On the other
>> hand, I still run windows side by side with linux, since developing
>> winforms requires compatibility testing on it's original platform, and
>> some times I make apps concurrently on both platforms, when I need a
>> particular vs feature to make the work go faster. It's not that hard
>> to do development of an app on both systems at the same time, you just
>> need to get used to synching code between the two so you can rapidly
>> switch, and will probably ease your transition a bit.
>>
>
> Thanks for your comments.  Apparently there's a winform designer in the
> works, although not quite ready for "prime time" yet.  Since I don't
> program commercially for Linux, I can afford to wait for it to appear.
>
> Working with mono winforms here at home currently requires (dual)
> booting my workstation into Windows, modifying the winform, then
> rebooting Linux to work with it in mono.  Then repeating the process
> whenever any little changes are needed.  Rinse and repeat.
I have writed some winform prj to run under linux, i'm undr MDV
2009.0, but Opensuse11.0 is also a good choice.
With your pkg manager, install virtualbox
After i start a new Machine/hdd throug Vbox, install XP on it + VS C# Express.
When i finish to work i close the Vbox windowse and say "save stae"
with keeping VS Open.
After , when i need i start again Vbox, it restore state and so i find
Vs open in the same state i stay it.
So i use WinXp+VS in exactly the same way as un normal software :-)
Bonus, Vbox have a virtual network/share :-)
Some of my WinForm Prj, running under nux can be found here :
https://sourceforge.net/users/surfzoid/
>
> That's why I stick my head up now and then, looking for a winform
> designer that works in Linux.  Since mono 2.0 was released, I thought it
> was time to look again.
>
> The idea of a GTK+ designer is interesting as well.  I plan to look into
> that too, now that I know about it.
>
>
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---
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Amateurs built the arch of Noah, and professionals the Titanic.
---

Few people are done for independence, it is the privilege of the powerful ones.
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-29 Thread Chris Howie
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Working with mono winforms here at home currently requires (dual)
> booting my workstation into Windows, modifying the winform, then
> rebooting Linux to work with it in mono.  Then repeating the process
> whenever any little changes are needed.  Rinse and repeat.

You might just try installing Linux in a virtual machine and using
that to test.  VirtualBox is free for personal use, so you'd probably
have to get a license if you're using it for professional stuff, but
you can try it and see if it works for you first.

-- 
Chris Howie
http://www.chrishowie.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Crazycomputers
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-30 Thread Adam Tauno Williams
> >> Well, to make a VS-like IDE takes a lot of work. MonoDevelop currently
> >> supports code completion (Intelissense in vs-speak), code folding,
> >> refactoring, makefile and msbuild support among others, a visual
> >> designer for gtk#,
> > The Gtk# designer is very pleasant to use.
> >> asp.net designer,
> > Is this working, currently?  I don't think it is.
> http://www.mono-project.com/WinForms_Designer

Yep, but I was asking about the "asp.net designer" cited by the previous
post.

But the WinForms designer does look pretty cool.

(this is a good example message for how top-posting results in loss of
context)

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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-31 Thread Ivan N. Zlatev
--- Original message ---
From: Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 29.10.'08,  22:33

> Petit Eric wrote:
> > http://www.mono-project.com/WinForms_Designer
> >   
> 
> Yeah!  Now, that's what I'm talking about. 
> 
> I'll check back later ... hopefully it will become available via
> something other than svn when it's closer to stable.  Thanks!
>

Hi, please do not have high expectations usability-wise. It's such a shame 
the designer's state, because the complex infrastructure work is already 
done and we only lack a decent drag and drop mechanism. In order to 
implement one like VS's snap lines we need to have a transparent control on 
top of the design surface. This is where we hit a wall, because while on 
Win32 transparency can be achieved easily by an extra flag in CreateParams, 
this has proven to be hell (for me at least) on X/Linux. 

Everaldo, I remember that you mentioned that you are poking at the 
transparency again some time ago. Did you get anywhere?

Kind Regards,
Ivan N. Zlatev
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-31 Thread Everaldo Canuto
Hey,

Well, I get, I get some bad results, we can use Glx features that dont works
for me because we have two X11 windows for any control, the second option is
to inherit our paint background to draw parent backgrounds and emulate
transparency, but it is slow and a ugly implementation.

Maybe we can just enable it in XGL systems and check the transparecy problem
with out "control inside control".

Everaldo

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 6:25 PM, Ivan N. Zlatev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- Original message ---
> From: Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 29.10.'08,  22:33
>
> > Petit Eric wrote:
> > > http://www.mono-project.com/WinForms_Designer
> > >
> >
> > Yeah!  Now, that's what I'm talking about.
> >
> > I'll check back later ... hopefully it will become available via
> > something other than svn when it's closer to stable.  Thanks!
> >
>
> Hi, please do not have high expectations usability-wise. It's such a shame
> the designer's state, because the complex infrastructure work is already
> done and we only lack a decent drag and drop mechanism. In order to
> implement one like VS's snap lines we need to have a transparent control on
> top of the design surface. This is where we hit a wall, because while on
> Win32 transparency can be achieved easily by an extra flag in CreateParams,
> this has proven to be hell (for me at least) on X/Linux.
>
> Everaldo, I remember that you mentioned that you are poking at the
> transparency again some time ago. Did you get anywhere?
>
> Kind Regards,
> Ivan N. Zlatev
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-10-31 Thread Dragos Cirjan
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 4:11 AM, Andreia Gaita <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 10/29/08, Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  I'm a full-time .NET developer at work, and I really want mono to be to
> >  Linux what .NET is to Windows.  However, I'm finding it really slow
> >  getting started with mono, because I haven't yet found anything I can
> >  use to create winform applications visually.  Does such a thing exist
> >  for mono?
>
> For winforms, nope. There is a designer, but it's not integrated into
> MonoDevelop yet.
>
> >  I can build an application using Visual Studio, and then port it to mono
> >  without a lot of trouble, but every time I've tried to *start* an
> >  application using mono, I end up frustrated and quit.  I just downloaded
> >  the latest version, thinking that I'd be pleasantly surprised this time,
> >  but monodevelop still seems like little more than a fairly smart code
> >  editor.
>
> Well, to make a VS-like IDE takes a lot of work. MonoDevelop currently
> supports code completion (Intelissense in vs-speak), code folding,
> refactoring, makefile and msbuild support among others, a visual
> designer for gtk#, asp.net designer, debugger support and a host of
> other features. Of course, if you don't use any of these things and
> the only thing you want is a winforms designer, obviously you're going
> to be disapointed. OTOH, if the only thing you use on VS is the
> winforms designer, then you're missing out on a lot of very useful
> features (most of which MD also supports).
>
> --
> andreia gaita
> mono hacker
> http://www.worldofcoding.com
> http://mono-project.com
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I go for MonoDevelop too. I think I found once, long ago, another IDE, but
could not compete with MonoDevelop. Even more MonoDevelop is under GPL or
GPL like licence. The other was not.

Chris


-- 
-
Cristian - Dragos, Cirjan
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Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Mono-list] Linux Equivalent to Visual Studio?

2008-11-07 Thread Support
The best you could do right now would be Delphi Prism, which supports
Mono, but you would have to develop on windows and run on linux or Mac.
check it out at: http://www.codegear.com/products/delphi/prism

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