Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim

[Beverlee Paul]

I have to agree, with reservations.  I think our profession is going to be 
gone as a profession if something doesn't change.  And it'll go with "a 
whimper not a bang."  Too many with integrity and intelligence just plain 
won't be able to stand seeing that script one more time.  They'll go.  And 
the ones left?  They'll be the ones who cruise in 10 minutes before school 
to take up their post and administer the day.


Well, I also think teachers have allowed this to happen. It is not only
the decision-makers who have taken leave of their senses it is a
great number of teachers in the trenches as well. There are a lot of
teachers who *like* DIBELS, who *like* Open Court, who *like* SRA, who
*like* Success for All, who *like* Star Reading, who *like* computer
tests, who *like* Saxon Math, who *like* Excel Math, who *like*
programs that tell them what to do, who *like* assessments that give
them a number to go by.

And way too many teachers who don't like these programs but who just go
along and do whatever they are told without thinking about it, without
speaking up, without making a case for something better.

Way, way too many, in fact.
At least that's how it is where I live.

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Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim

[Beverlee Paul]

Well, I also think teachers have allowed this to happen. It is not only
the decision-makers who have taken leave of their senses it is a
great number of teachers in the trenches as well. There are a lot of
teachers who *like* DIBELS, who *like* Open Court, who *like* SRA, who
*like* Success for All, who *like* Star Reading, who *like* computer
tests, who *like* Saxon Math, who *like* Excel Math, who *like*
programs that tell them what to do, who *like* assessments that give
them a number to go by.

And way too many teachers who don't like these programs but who just go
along and do whatever they are told without thinking about it, without
speaking up, without making a case for something better.

Way, way too many, in fact.
At least that's how it is where I live.

Renee

_
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Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim

[Beverlee Paul]

Well, I also think teachers have allowed this to happen. It is not only
the decision-makers who have taken leave of their senses it is a
great number of teachers in the trenches as well. There are a lot of
teachers who *like* DIBELS, who *like* Open Court, who *like* SRA, who
*like* Success for All, who *like* Star Reading, who *like* computer
tests, who *like* Saxon Math, who *like* Excel Math, who *like*
programs that tell them what to do, who *like* assessments that give
them a number to go by.

And way too many teachers who don't like these programs but who just go
along and do whatever they are told without thinking about it, without
speaking up, without making a case for something better.

Way, way too many, in fact.
At least that's how it is where I live.

Renee

_
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Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim

[Beverlee Paul]

another PS - I wouldn't be too far from saying a bit more bold statement - 
Nearly ALL people read more slowly and haltingly when reading aloud, no 
matter their age

PS Still and all, some kids (and adults) read more slowly and haltingly when 
reading aloud than when reading silently.


Elisa:  It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading  --
readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in  a
very similar way when reading silently.The relationship between oral
and silent reading is very strong.   That is why we use oral reading as
a way to assess overall reading --  including silent reading.

Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D.
Reading and Writing Center
404 White Hall
Kent State University
Kent, OH  44242

email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone:  330-672-0649
Cell:  330-962-6251
Fax:  330-672-2025
Informational website:  www.timrasinski.com
Professional Development DVD:  http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/




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Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency

[Renee]

All are welcome to use the "Renee clause" whenever appropriate.  :-)

Renee


On Jul 10, 2007, at 4:53 PM, S Strickland wrote:

> Can I plead the "Renee clause" here???
>
> 'Frankly, I don't think we need "research" to back up
> everything we say and I'm tired of having my own
> classroom observations and experience tossed aside...'
>
> [Renee -- Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:34:20 -0700 ]
>
> Kidding aside, I do appreciate the input. It's just a
> two-minute assessment that I  *might* try if a student
> had me completely baffled. I promise it is not
> something I would plan to do every Monday, Wednesday,
> and Friday. :-)
>
> Diane
> ---
> ljackson
> Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:58:29 -0700
> Except that this issue of tracking simply not well
> supported in eye movement research. I'm telling you,
> those fixations are all over the place. The eye is not
> driving the brain, the brain is driving the eye. Lori
>
> On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 19:45 , Diane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> sent: >Yes, I would want to measure the student's
> silent reading rate first >without tracking. I might
> try to get additional data--in a very low-tech >way
> (no eye-tracking technology in my classroom (-: )--by
> doing another >measure asking the student to track. It
> might give me an idea of what >problems he is having.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___ 
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>
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Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency

[S Strickland]

Can I plead the "Renee clause" here???

'Frankly, I don't think we need "research" to back up
everything we say and I'm tired of having my own
classroom observations and experience tossed aside...'

[Renee -- Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:34:20 -0700 ]

Kidding aside, I do appreciate the input. It's just a
two-minute assessment that I  *might* try if a student
had me completely baffled. I promise it is not
something I would plan to do every Monday, Wednesday,
and Friday. :-)

Diane
---
ljackson
Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:58:29 -0700
Except that this issue of tracking simply not well
supported in eye movement research. I'm telling you,
those fixations are all over the place. The eye is not
driving the brain, the brain is driving the eye. Lori

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 19:45 , Diane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
sent: >Yes, I would want to measure the student's
silent reading rate first >without tracking. I might
try to get additional data--in a very low-tech >way
(no eye-tracking technology in my classroom (-: )--by
doing another >measure asking the student to track. It
might give me an idea of what >problems he is having.





   

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Re: [MOSAIC] new K book

[ljackson]

Having had the opportunity to observe in Sue's classroom, I am willing to
say this is a MUST READ book!  She is amazing.  Not only does she take
children to higher levels with their thinking, but her kindergarten
classroom clearly honor childhood.  I am so tired of kindergarten classrooms
devoid of play, as if those centers are counter to grand thinking and
learning.  Sue does it all, and she makes you want to be five again.

Lori


On 7/10/07 9:10 AM, "ginger/rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Susan Godel, from Heinemann, wrote me this information about the new
> kindergarten book to be released this fall:
> 
> "The new book is The Literate Kindergarten, by Susan Kempton, which I
> believe is due out in October, but should be available for pre-order before
> then. I'll send you more information as it becomes available to me.
> 
> Here's a little bit about it to whet your appetites:
> 
> The Literate Kindergarten shows how carefully balancing academics with song,
> movement, talk, and play creates an environment where every child can grown
> and learn.
> 
> Sue Kempton is a master teacher, and in The Literate Kindergarten, she
> shares the thinking, the structures, even the precise language she uses to
> help young children become motivated, engaged, and joyful learners. Kempton
> guides you through the three domains of learning on which she bases her
> lessons and actions: the cognitive, creative, and emotional.
> 
> With this framework in mind, Kempton offers clues to interpreting children's
> talk and body language so that you know which domain they are engaged in, as
> well as specific questions and phrases that draw out their thinking and make
> learning visible.
> 
>> From there, The Literate Kindergarten offers effective suggestions for:
> 
> * establishing routines and creating cooperation
> * developing oral language
> * modeling the language of thinking
> * teaching across the content areas
> * supporting students as they become socialized to school
> * recognizing the vital importance of integrating music, movement, and
> play
> * familiarizing children with concepts of print, comprehension
> strategies, and other important literacy habits.
> 
> Susan L. Kempton works closely with the Denver-based Public Education and
> Business Coalition as a staff developer, hosting local and national teaching
> labs. She has taught primary-age children from diverse populations for
> twenty-five years, with kindergarten being her focus and passion. She
> currently teaches at-risk students at Harrington Elementary School in
> Denver."
> 
> Sounds like a great book!
> Ginger
> moderator
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 

-- 
Lori Jackson
District Literacy Coach & Mentor
Todd County School District
Box 87
Mission SD  57555
 
http:www.tcsdk12.org
ph. 605.856.2211


Literacies for All Summer Institute
"Literate Lives:  A Human Right"
July 12-15, 2007
Louisville, Kentucky

http://www.ncte.org/profdev/conv/wlu



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Re: [MOSAIC] unsuscribe[Scanned]

[!Rachelle Parker]

i am not sure what else if anything i have to do to unsubscribe.
rachelle Parker

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sat 7/7/2007 8:59 PM
To: mosaic@literacyworkshop.org
Subject: [MOSAIC] unsuscribe[Scanned]
 
I do not wish to suscribe to the mosaic of thought list serve any more. Please 
take me off your mailing list.

Thank you,

Mary Jo Walter
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 





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Re: [MOSAIC] unsuscribe[Scanned]

[!Rachelle Parker]

please unsubscribe me also. i have been trying for weeks to become 
unsubscribed,  but cannot figure out how. i don't kn ow anything about cookies 
or what my password is. thank you very much.
rachelle Parker

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sat 7/7/2007 8:59 PM
To: mosaic@literacyworkshop.org
Subject: [MOSAIC] unsuscribe[Scanned]
 
I do not wish to suscribe to the mosaic of thought list serve any more. Please 
take me off your mailing list.

Thank you,

Mary Jo Walter
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Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim

[Waingort Jimenez, Elisa]

Hi John,
Thank you for this posting.  It helps to uncover more of what's currently 
happening with reading instruction.
Elisa Waingort
Calgary, Canada

 
I think both Mr. Rasinski and Ms. Waingort are "right" in their comments on the 
importance of fluency. S. J. Samuels was on the NRP, and at the Chicago IRA he 
stated that fluency was taken up by the NRP in large part because he was on the 
panel...and that others on the panel did fight for their own interests. 

Mr. Samuels also stated that if he would have known what was going to happen 
with fluency instruction is classrooms as a result, it would have been better 
Fluency had not been considered at all. Strong words. And, to think that it 
wasn't too many years ago that Tim Shanahan described fluency as the 
"neglected," or "forgotten" tool, or something close to those terms.

Perhaps what Mr. Rasinski noted about Stahl's last study holds part of the 
key-"a significant number of students were struggling readers."  In our 
profession we repeatedly take hold of something that works for one group of 
students and generalize it as "good" for all readers. And, we can't be happy 
with practicing fluent reading in moderation--sharing a poem or song each day 
in class in a meaningful enjoyable way, either, as mentioned in recent 
postings. (That's not "direct" enough teaching for many.) 

In recent years it was phonemic awareness (Richard Allington described it as 
the "false crisis").  The work of just a few researchers, often with very small 
numbers of struggling readers fueled that crisis, and often just citing each 
other's work. All of a sudden even children who were reading "fluently" needed 
to focus on letter ID and letter sounds...breaking the reading process back 
down to its least meaningful parts. I remember reading Connie Juel trying to 
bail out when her work was being cited so much- in ways not necessarily how she 
viewed her own results. 

Of course most recent is the DIBELS work, borne out of special education and 
foisted upon the Reading First schools. Now in this city we have whole schools 
(not just reading first schools, not schools full of struggling readers--yet 
anyway) charting how many words and sounds they are reading each month-and 
other garbage. And, holding whole school assemblies to celebrate. What do these 
kids think "reading" is? How can they make the adults (reading teachers, 
teachers, principals, parents school board members) in their lives more happy? 
Just read more words, more letters, and more sounds-- and read them faster. 
What's the "new" crisis? Middle school kids who can read but are choosing not 
to read. How can we blame them? 

What's the other not so new crisis? Soaring high school drop-out rates...Some 
of our reading leaders look at the NAEP scores and say we're just not doing 
enough at the higher levels, as if that's all the answer..willing to accept 
that core reading programs and DIBELS for our struggling readers is the answer 
because state leaders "say" it's working??? Just keep the money flowing-into 
the right pockets.

Just wait until this group of struggling readers in those Reading First schools 
reach middle school/high school age after YEARS of being DIBELed in the name of 
reading instruction. I am very afraid we haven't seen anything in how high 
drop-out rates will go yet. And, we as a profession will have done nothing 
about it. 

John Delich
Springfield, IL


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[MOSAIC] new K book

[ginger/rob]

Susan Godel, from Heinemann, wrote me this information about the new 
kindergarten book to be released this fall:

"The new book is The Literate Kindergarten, by Susan Kempton, which I 
believe is due out in October, but should be available for pre-order before 
then. I'll send you more information as it becomes available to me.

Here's a little bit about it to whet your appetites:

The Literate Kindergarten shows how carefully balancing academics with song, 
movement, talk, and play creates an environment where every child can grown 
and learn.

Sue Kempton is a master teacher, and in The Literate Kindergarten, she 
shares the thinking, the structures, even the precise language she uses to 
help young children become motivated, engaged, and joyful learners. Kempton 
guides you through the three domains of learning on which she bases her 
lessons and actions: the cognitive, creative, and emotional.

With this framework in mind, Kempton offers clues to interpreting children's 
talk and body language so that you know which domain they are engaged in, as 
well as specific questions and phrases that draw out their thinking and make 
learning visible.

>From there, The Literate Kindergarten offers effective suggestions for:

* establishing routines and creating cooperation
* developing oral language
* modeling the language of thinking
* teaching across the content areas
* supporting students as they become socialized to school
* recognizing the vital importance of integrating music, movement, and 
play
* familiarizing children with concepts of print, comprehension 
strategies, and other important literacy habits.

Susan L. Kempton works closely with the Denver-based Public Education and 
Business Coalition as a staff developer, hosting local and national teaching 
labs. She has taught primary-age children from diverse populations for 
twenty-five years, with kindergarten being her focus and passion. She 
currently teaches at-risk students at Harrington Elementary School in 
Denver."

Sounds like a great book!
Ginger
moderator



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Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim

[jdelich]

I think both Mr. Rasinski and Ms. Waingort are "right" in their comments on the 
importance of fluency. S. J. Samuels was on the NRP, and at the Chicago IRA he 
stated that fluency was taken up by the NRP in large part because he was on the 
panel...and that others on the panel did fight for their own interests. 

Mr. Samuels also stated that if he would have known what was going to happen 
with fluency instruction is classrooms as a result, it would have been better 
Fluency had not been considered at all. Strong words. And, to think that it 
wasn't too many years ago that Tim Shanahan described fluency as the 
"neglected," or "forgotten" tool, or something close to those terms.

Perhaps what Mr. Rasinski noted about Stahl's last study holds part of the 
key-"a significant number of students were struggling readers."  In our 
profession we repeatedly take hold of something that works for one group of 
students and generalize it as "good" for all readers. And, we can't be happy 
with practicing fluent reading in moderation--sharing a poem or song each day 
in class in a meaningful enjoyable way, either, as mentioned in recent 
postings. (That's not "direct" enough teaching for many.) 

In recent years it was phonemic awareness (Richard Allington described it as 
the "false crisis").  The work of just a few researchers, often with very small 
numbers of struggling readers fueled that crisis, and often just citing each 
other's work. All of a sudden even children who were reading "fluently" needed 
to focus on letter ID and letter sounds...breaking the reading process back 
down to its least meaningful parts. I remember reading Connie Juel trying to 
bail out when her work was being cited so much- in ways not necessarily how she 
viewed her own results. 

Of course most recent is the DIBELS work, borne out of special education and 
foisted upon the Reading First schools. Now in this city we have whole schools 
(not just reading first schools, not schools full of struggling readers--yet 
anyway) charting how many words and sounds they are reading each month-and 
other garbage. And, holding whole school assemblies to celebrate. What do these 
kids think "reading" is? How can they make the adults (reading teachers, 
teachers, principals, parents school board members) in their lives more happy? 
Just read more words, more letters, and more sounds-- and read them faster. 
What's the "new" crisis? Middle school kids who can read but are choosing not 
to read. How can we blame them? 

What's the other not so new crisis? Soaring high school drop-out rates...Some 
of our reading leaders look at the NAEP scores and say we're just not doing 
enough at the higher levels, as if that's all the answer..willing to accept 
that core reading programs and DIBELS for our struggling readers is the answer 
because state leaders "say" it's working??? Just keep the money flowing-into 
the right pockets.

Just wait until this group of struggling readers in those Reading First schools 
reach middle school/high school age after YEARS of being DIBELed in the name of 
reading instruction. I am very afraid we haven't seen anything in how high 
drop-out rates will go yet. And, we as a profession will have done nothing 
about it. 

John Delich
Springfield, IL


>I would have thought that the reason that fluency was cited by the NRP was 
>because of an existing and growing body of evidence that suggests that fluency 
>is an important component 
>
>
>And because it was a pet peeve of some on the panel.
>Elisa Waingort

>
>
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Re: [MOSAIC] Eye Movement Research

[Creecher12]

 
In a message dated 7/10/2007 8:44:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

That's a  great question to ask Peter this week at WLU.


Hi Lori, 
I did ask him that question the first time I saw him present that research  
in Chicago. He acknowledged it.
I just wonder if eye movement studies have been done on first grade Distar  
students and how they compare to those being taught to use multiple decoding  
strategies. 
 
If children are being taught, 
" Look at the picture, still no clue.
Read it again, all the way through." 
Their eyes are going to go all over that page.
 
If the children are being taught,
cu--a--t, caaat.
Doesn't it make sense that they would be more likely to fixate on the  
letters?
Just wonderin.
 
 
 
Nancy 



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Re: [MOSAIC] Eye Movement Research

[ljackson]

That's a great question to ask Peter this week at WLU.  It is my impression
that the literature he used, which he considered somewhat week and
inauthentic, was typical of the literature being used in the classrooms.
Nancy, did you go to his session last year? The one book I recall was part
of a leveled series and I want to say it might have been Sunshine Press.
Pretty typical of weaker examples of lower leveled texts used with emergent
readers.

Let me look through my notes and see if I have an email address for Eric
Paulson.  I would love to ask him this question as well. However, I do know
that adult eye movements are also less indicative  or supportive  of the
this notion that readers fixate on letters and words in a left to right
progression.  We adults are 'jumpy' as well.

Lori


On 7/10/07 6:00 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I haven't read the book that Elaine refers to on eye movement. My question
> of Peter Duckett's research on first graders is, how were the children in  the
> study  taught? Were they taught to scan the pictures for clues? Or were  they
> taught in a Distar method with no pictures, and attention to  words, letters
> and sounds? Has there been research done on whether eye  movement is dependent
> on instructional method?
>  
> Nancy Creech
> 
> 
> 
> ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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-- 
Lori Jackson
District Literacy Coach & Mentor
Todd County School District
Box 87
Mission SD  57555
 
http:www.tcsdk12.org
ph. 605.856.2211


Literacies for All Summer Institute
"Literate Lives:  A Human Right"
July 12-15, 2007
Louisville, Kentucky

http://www.ncte.org/profdev/conv/wlu



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Re: [MOSAIC] Eye Movement Research

[Creecher12]

I haven't read the book that Elaine refers to on eye movement. My question  
of Peter Duckett's research on first graders is, how were the children in  the 
study  taught? Were they taught to scan the pictures for clues? Or were  they 
taught in a Distar method with no pictures, and attention to  words, letters 
and sounds? Has there been research done on whether eye  movement is dependent 
on instructional method?
 
Nancy Creech



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Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim

[RASINSKI, TIMOTHY]

I would have thought that the reason that fluency was cited by the NRP was 
because of an existing and growing body of evidence that suggests that fluency 
is an important component in learning to read, that a significant number of 
students in the primary grades and beyond are not sufficiently fluent, and that 
teaching children to become more fluent results in overall higher levels of 
achievement and comprehension.
 
Steve Stahl has been cited a number of times in this discussion.  In one of his 
last published studies -- actually published after his death -- (Stahl & 
Heubach, Journal of Literacy Research, 2005) he reported on an implementation 
of his model of fluency oriented reading instruction.   He found that students 
made gains in reading achievement and comprehension well above what they may 
have been expected to achieve.   The study was particularly noteworthy in that 
a significant number of students were struggling readers.
 
Timothy Rasinski 
404 White Hall 
Kent State University 
Kent, OH  44242 
330-672-0649 
Cell -- 330-962-6251 
FAX  330-672-2025 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
informational website: www.timrasinski.com 
professional development DVD:  http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ 

  



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Waingort Jimenez, Elisa
Sent: Tue 7/10/2007 4:54 AM
To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group
Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim



And because it was a pet peeve of some on the panel.
Elisa Waingort
Calgary, Canada

One of the reasons fluency became one of the NRP thrusts was
because "reading" could be reduced to brief timed outbursts which could be
"measured." 


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Re: [MOSAIC] Summary of Stahl's summary of the NRP on Fluency

[Creecher12]

 
In a message dated 7/10/2007 12:42:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Check out the  NAEP oral reading studies (try googling NAEP oral reading).  
Two studies,  one in mid nineties and one in 2005, both with fourth graders (n 
= 1200 in the  first study, 1400 in the second) --   both found a relationship 
 between oral reading fluency and silent reading comprehension -- students 
who  read with the greatest levels of prosody, made their oral reading sound 
like  real language were the best comprehenders by far.   As expression  
decreased, so did comprehension.   


Most of the research I have read on fluency and the study I have heard  
referenced most often is the Pinnell study, which I think is the one that Tim 
is  
referring to here. It is also referenced in the NRP report. It compared the 
fluency scores of fourth graders to their  comprehension scores on the NAEP. 
Although it showed a causal relationship  between oral reading fluency and 
comprehension, the definition of fluency  was NOT based on words per minute, 
but on 
the student reading in meaningful  phrase groups, preserving the author’s 
syntax, and with an expressive  interpretation.  Also, students were  tested on 
theTHIRD time they read the required reading. The first time two times  they 
read 
the passage silently. No rate was taken on their silent reading.  Accuracy 
was not part of the fluency  scale. In fact, it was found that overall reading 
proficiency was somewhat  dependent on if the reader maintained meaning when 
making errors. The study also  found that students considered to be fluent and 
proficient, often had rates per  minute that were less than fluent for fourth 
graders. 
   
 It is worth looking up and reading. Here is a reference. 
 
Pinnell, G.S., Pikulski, J.J., Wixson, K.K., Campbell, J.R., Gough,  P.B., & 
Beatty, A. S., (  1995).  
Listening  to children read aloud. Washington, DC: Office of  Educational 
Research and  Improvement, U.S. Department of  Education



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Re: [MOSAIC] Summary of Stahl's summary of the NRP on Fluency

[Dave Middlebrook]

Thanks so much to Elaine and Tim -- and to the list for pushing the 
conversation along with observations and questions.  Fluency seems almost 
too hot to touch, which makes conversations about it difficult.  And my 
impression after trying to read some of the research on my own is that the 
questions surrounding it are extremely complicated and that firm answers to 
many specific questions seem to be dependent upon so many variables, and 
thus elusive: What are the "best" ways to work on speed and/or accuracy 
and/or prosody?  Which ways work best under which conditions for which 
readers?  Just how far from inauthentic text and comprehension can you go 
and still be effective -- and what are the goals of "going inauthentic"? 
Are there any benefits to using inauthentic text?  etc.  In the end, the 
process of formulating conclusions appears to require one to dash through a 
mine field while making sausage.  I hope the conversation continues.  For 
now, at least, my questions are answered.  Thanks.

Dave Middlebrook
The Textmapping Project
A resource for teachers improving reading comprehension skills instruction.
www.textmapping.org   |   Please share this site with your colleagues!
USA: (609) 771-1781
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim

[ljackson]

I recognize the value of being 'phrased and fluent', as Marie Clay would
say, yet I could never, in all honesty, say to a child, "Let's have another
go at this to increase our WPM." This discussion has been particularly
interesting to me and I think is a matter of framing the issue. I cannot
fluency accept as the purpose of multiple readings, but am fully aware of
fluency as positive side effect.

Lori


On 7/9/07 10:45 PM, "RASINSKI, TIMOTHY" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Lori -- what you describe seems very sound to me -- repeated readings for an
> authentic reason.  I know when I read poetry I can never a poem once and get
> all that I would like from it.  As I read it and reread I begin to notice
> things such as the poet' s use of rhyme, rhythm, repetition of words and
> phrases, alliteration, figurative language.
>  
>   I often think of this  process of repeated readings and exposures to texts
> in much the same way as coming to like a song.  Often when i hear a song the
> first time it may not grab my fancy.  Yet, after hearing the same song on the
> radio over the course of week, by Friday it often becomes my favorite song of
> all time.   The repeated exposure leads to deeper levels of examination and
> comrpehension.
>  
> Timothy Rasinski 
> 404 White Hall 
> Kent State University
> Kent, OH  44242 
> 330-672-0649 
> Cell -- 330-962-6251
> FAX  330-672-2025
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> informational website: www.timrasinski.com
> professional development DVD:  http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/
>  nsion.com/>  
> 
> 
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of ljackson
> Sent: Mon 7/9/2007 8:28 PM
> To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group
> Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not Tim, but this issue rereading with older readers came up in
> discussion at a PEBC Institute last winter.  The exceptional middle school
> teacher I observed talked about the importance of giving kids authentic
> purposes for rereading.  As an example, we might first read a story to get
> the gist of the plot and other story elements.  We might then reread the
> text for specific information that supports inference into character.
> 
> When I think about the role of shared reading (which was by nature rereading
> in my classroom), we did approach each day's rereading with a very different
> text.  Today as we share this reading, I want you to be thinking about...
> Words that rhyme, word choice, how to dramatize the piece, craft, etc.
> 
> Lori
> 
> 
> On 7/9/07 4:58 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Dr. Rasinski,
>> I appreciate so much being able to talk to you directly.  My first  issue in
>> reading all of the Mosaic responses and questions concerns the  definition of
>> fluency from your perspective.
>> 
>> Secondly, I would like to talk about a child that I work with.  She is
>> entering fourth grade.  She reads (DRA level 28)  She reads with  meaning on
>> a
>> literal level, but needs guidance and support with inference.   Her decoding
>> is in
>> many cases hesitant.  I have found that rereading is  very helpful, but the
>> rereading we do is not necessarily authentic.  I just  explain to her that by
>> rereading something, she will become a more fluent reader  and she does it
>> and
>> does it well.  She appears to feel really good about  rereading something
>> better each time she does it.
>> 
>> How important is it for rereading to be for authentic purposes such as
>> reader's theater etc.?  If a child understands the purpose, isn't that
>> enough?
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> Maxine
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>>  .
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>> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org.
>> 
>> Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
>> 
> 
> --
> Lori Jackson
> District Literacy Coach & Mentor
> Todd County School District
> Box 87
> Mission SD  57555
> 
> http:www.tcsdk12.org
> ph. 605.856.2211
> 
> 
> Literacies for All Summer Institute
> "Literate Lives:  A Human Right"
> July 12-15, 2007
> Louisville, Kentucky
> 
> http://www.ncte.org/profdev/conv/wlu
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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Re: [MOSAIC] Summary of Stahl's summary of the NRP on Fluency

[ljackson]

Here is more fule for the fluency discussion:

http://www.hofstra.edu/pdf/ORSP_Flurkey_Spring02.pdf


On 7/9/07 8:29 PM, "Dave Middlebrook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thanks Elaine!  Lots to chew on.  My quick take after reading your summary
> is that fluency is important in the context of authentic reading, but that
> the farther fluency work gets from authentic texts and the more targeted it
> gets on speed and accuracy without comprehension, the less useful it is.  Is
> that an accurate way to put it?
> 
> On the nudge front, I didn't see much on prosody.  That is an area of
> current and significant interest for me.  If you have any other sources on
> that, I'd be interested in looking into them.  I'll be digging into your
> book before the summer ends.  Thanks for your detailed replies.
> 
> Dave Middlebrook
> The Textmapping Project
> A resource for teachers improving reading comprehension skills instruction.
> www.textmapping.org   |   Please share this site with your colleagues!
> USA: (609) 771-1781
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "elaine garan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group"
> 
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 1:05 PM
> Subject: [MOSAIC] Summary of Stahl's summary of the NRP on Fluency
> 
> 
> Ta-Dah!! For Dave or anyone else-- here it is hot off the press:
> 
> Ok‹Here is the information from Stahl¹s chapter on Fluency in The Voice
> of Evidence in Reading Research. This was sanctioned by the National
> Institute of Child Health and Human Development and the various
> sections were written by members or contributors of the Report of the
> National Reading Panel. Its purpose is to put the panel¹s research into
> practice so this has the federal stamp of approval.
> 
> Stahl was a contributor to the NRP report. What he¹s done is try to
> pull together the various studies and the findings of the NRP and
> discuss their implications for classroom teaching. I¹m going to outline
> the chapter section by section since so that the big picture isn¹t
> lost. If I have a personal comment, I¹ll note it as such. Otherwise,
> this is the flow of undiluted, uncherrypicked federally- sanctioned
> Stahl. I think what he says is well-balanced, fair and makes a lot of
> sense.
> 
> 
>   This is a draft‹it is accurate in terms of content--  but no doubt has
> spelling or grammatical errors but I¹m not cleaning it up now. 1. Ch
> starts with how fluency has been a neglected topic but is destined to
> move to the forefront because of NCLB. (p. 187)
> 2. Then Stahl  discusses models of reading development that emphasize
> fluency‹Chall, Ehri‹and how the belief is that if kids can recognize
> words automatically, they can devote energy to comprehension. This is
> the same argument and the same researchers who support heavy phonics
> instruction for the same reason. Note: He describes this in terms of
> models and does not agree or disagree. He then moves on to the
> definition of fluency (p.187-188)
> 3. Stahl states that conventionally, fluency is defined as 1) a
> reasonable rate; 2) ³accurate without too many miscues² NOTE: Stahl
> uses the term ³miscues² instead of ³errors² thus appearing to validate
> the concept‹I would note that later he cites Marie Clay and others
> connected to Reading Recovery to promote the use of context, rather
> than decoding alone to help kids identify words. 3) prosodic‹read with
> expression to sound like language.
> 4. THEN‹and this is important‹Stahl (p. 188) says that these
> definitions of reading (those 3 components) are over simplified and
> that ³Reading, however, is more complex²
> 5. He then qualifies and expands on that oversimplified definition of
> fluency by saying, (p. 188) ³Teachers assume that those whoŠ are
> struggling with the text, making many miscues, hesitating and repeating
> words are struggling readers and that those who read the text
> comfortably are comprehending accurately. He says, for the most part
> this is true. But then he gets into the complexities and the
> qualifications:
> 7. ³Reading however is more complex. Sometimes children can be reading
> accurately but do not understand what they read² He cites (Carpenter an
> Paris and also Pinnell et al (1995)
> 8. He then goes on for 2 pages saying how the 3 components of fluency
> (rate, accuracy and prosody) are not enough. He cites Pinnell¹s study
> for NAEP‹who found that 4th graders tested in this special study
> ³showed that overall, oral reading accuracy was not significantly
> related to comprehension ³(p. 188)
> 9. Pinnell et all DID find however that ³significant miscues were
> strongly related to comprehension. ([pp.188)
> 10. Stahl then further supports the Pinnell findings that ³oral
> reading accuracy was only related to comprehension In first and second
> grades with correlations in third grade and beyond dropping to near
> zero.² This quote is from studies  by Carpenter and Paris‹also a study
> by Schwnaenflu

Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim

[Waingort Jimenez, Elisa]

And because it was a pet peeve of some on the panel.
Elisa Waingort
Calgary, Canada

One of the reasons fluency became one of the NRP thrusts was 
because "reading" could be reduced to brief timed outbursts which could be 
"measured."  
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Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim

[Waingort Jimenez, Elisa]

Lori,
You make a good point here.  This is also true for ESL students.  English is 
not my first language and I can read (comprehend) lots of words that I would 
not feel comfortable saying aloud.
Elisa Waingort
Calgary, Canada

 
Sometimes I think that it is an issue of pronunciation vs. comprehension, even 
at the word level.  There are words that are in 
our reading vocabulary that are unfamiliar to us auditorily.  I think this is 
especially noticable among students from rural or 
isolated backgrounds that are very wide readers.  Have you ever met anyone like 
this?  Someone who uses absolutely the right 
word, but mispronounces it speaking?  I know I attended a state college and saw 
this a lot in students from very sparsely 
populated areas of the state. If I were such a reader, I might let the 
pronunciation issue slow me down whereas if I was 
reading silently, I could quickly accept my inferred meaning for the word and 
pretty much get over the pronunciation thing.  I 
do this all the time with names and once in a while with other words.

Lori

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