Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Jul 25, 2008, at 12:01 AM, Jim DeLaHunt wrote: snippage Everything snipped, I agreed with. 1. There's lots of purely editorial flaws, not policy-related, in our docs. Clearly stale content labelled as under revision. Poorly structured pages. Discussion placed inconsistently within policy pages, or on separate Discussion pages. Unclear writing. I think we need a way to identify editorial problems, and open them up to low-overhead fixes that don't go through the mb-style discussion process. We need editorial guidelines for this. Newbie editors (as I was a few months ago) should be able to dive in and help with this. Also agreed. I think this is part of a larger problem -- our overall docs are in disarray and could benefit from someone taking an active role as Documentation Chief and cleaning house a bit. We've also lost some WikiWardens who were directly involved in writing documentation, which makes this situation worse. A WikiWarden armed with transclusion rights would be in a good position to clean house here. Would anyone be interested in taking an active role in documentation for MusicBrainz? thinking_out_loud A documentation chief should/could/might: - Create an list of pieces of documentation that MB should have to help its users/developers along. - Review documentation, delete old documentation and remove superfluous documentation. - Identify who in the community should write/fix documentation that is needed. - Assign bugs to developers to fix documentation that cannot be fixed/ written by the community at large. - Over time, keep an eye on documentation and periodically revise documentation as MB changes. (mostly around releases of software) Like the style leader, I'd hope that this person would not personally write most of the documentation, but prod the community/volunteers/ developers to write the documentation. /thinking_out_loud 2. For classical recordings, I think a list of common work and movement titles would help hugely. They would let new users copy existing text for TrackTitles and ReleaseTitles, without having to understand the whole ClassicalStyleGuide. The CSGStandard pages are one approach to such a list. Within the last few months there was a proposal to store such a list in the database somehow. In either case, copying is easier than generating anew. I need to touch base with Lukas and see how his Works branch is coming along... 6. Our process needs some backwards arrows. There should be clear transitions for stuck proposals to go back to an earlier stage. Do you have a rough draft that outlines how you view the process? Interestingly, one thing which I think the Style Czar not need do much of, is make style policy decisions. Because, I think, we've got fine people with fine ideas, we already have the wisdom to get those decisions right. Once the process is properly tuned, I think this will be the case. I agree with everything you've said -- I think you're certainly on the right track. I'm ready to declare Jim as the new style leader? Does anyone have any objections? If so, speak up now! -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
Rob: Robert Kaye wrote: Jim: I would love to hear what you think of my ideas and how you would tackle the task of defining a working style process! I've been turning over my thoughts on the style process, so it's taken me a couple of weeks to reply. First off, everything you write and all the wisdom you pass on from Don Redman makes perfect sense to me. I agree with it all. Second, here's what I think about the style process at MB in general. I think that the people we have here are fine. I think the consensus policies that I see expressed in postings to the mb-style list or in edit discussions are fine. Even where a discussion arrives at two different proposals for how to handle a situation and then gets stuck, usually both proposals are reasonable, and it's just a matter of picking one and running with it. There are some places where MB is limited by technology. Awesome as our database is, the domain we're trying to describe is even more complex, so the technology has to become yet better. A number of our style disputes would lessen if we had some of the technology promised by NextGenerationSchema. A MusicalWork entity would let us say yes both to identifying classical tracks precisely and to reporting what's on the CD liner. A tool which made data entry for ARs easier would vastly improve how we described releases, and would make it more realistic to ease off on FeaturingArtist refs in titles. But the technology we have today is enough to get lots of useful work done, and there are style process problems to solve in the presence of today's technology. So the people are fine and the consensus policies are fine. Where I think we are badly broken is in recording our consensus policies in our documentation. In particular, our documents don't reflect what we actually do. I see several obstacles. 1. There's lots of purely editorial flaws, not policy-related, in our docs. Clearly stale content labelled as under revision. Poorly structured pages. Discussion placed inconsistently within policy pages, or on separate Discussion pages. Unclear writing. I think we need a way to identify editorial problems, and open them up to low-overhead fixes that don't go through the mb-style discussion process. We need editorial guidelines for this. Newbie editors (as I was a few months ago) should be able to dive in and help with this. 2. For classical recordings, I think a list of common work and movement titles would help hugely. They would let new users copy existing text for TrackTitles and ReleaseTitles, without having to understand the whole ClassicalStyleGuide. The CSGStandard pages are one approach to such a list. Within the last few months there was a proposal to store such a list in the database somehow. In either case, copying is easier than generating anew. 3. We should integrate AdvancedRelationships into the style guides alongside the ReleaseTitle and TrackTitle guidance. I think we should set the expectation that the few basic ARs are as necessary as ReleaseEvents. We should remove all references in our docs to ARs as an upcoming feature, or one yet to be rolled out. 4. Some proposals get put to the list for discussion, then get stuck and don't proceed. Sometimes this is because the mb-style discussion gets sidetracked. Sometimes its because two competing policy alternatives emerge and we don't have a good way of choosing. Sometimes it's because we lack data. This would be helped by having an empowered Style Czar as a referee. Having a small group work the issues and present a more fleshed-out proposal, as in Rob's message earlier, would help. (A small group can flag most of the problems that a large group would find, and more efficiently.) We should resume using the Bug Tracker to track style issues. A http://bugs.musicbrainz.org/query?status=newstatus=assignedstatus=reopenedgroup=milestonecomponent=Style+Issueskeywords=~phase_order=priority report of open issues by phase (like this) makes it clearer when something gets stuck. I think the Style Czar and a few assistants can keep this up to date with little hassle for the proposers. 5. We should improve our execution of approved style changes. This means having pages which clearly say which users have the special permissions to implement the change. It also means having a place early in the process for implementors to advise proposers on which proposals have technical obstacles. In particular, some of our AR proposals in the last few months passed RFV, only to find that the proposal as worded couldn't be implemented with our AR machinery. Oops. 6. Our process needs some backwards arrows. There should be clear transitions for stuck proposals to go back to an earlier stage. 7. Our docs about process should reflect the process we actually follow. The Style Czar should be empowered to rewrite the process description pages as needed. The pages of who's available to do certain tasks (like add relationships) should likewise be kept
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Jim DeLaHunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Kaye wrote: ... FYI: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=332 If you have any thoughts on Jim being the style leader, please drop me a *private* email. Of course it's obvious to anyone who sees how he dresses that Jim is hopelessly unqualified to be a style leader. I mean really, a fleece jacket in July. He must live in Canada or something. You must be a style leader: I am wearing the same :-D -- Frederic Da Vitoria ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:28:58PM +0200, Frederic Da Vitoria wrote: This is absolutely not against Jim, but do we really need a style leader? I mean, do we need someone to hold such a formal position? Yes :) -- kuno / warp. ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Jul 10, 2008, at 10:37 PM, Jim DeLaHunt wrote: Of course it's obvious to anyone who sees how he dresses that Jim is hopelessly unqualified to be a style leader. And apparently you don't understand the concept of a private email either. ;-) Seriously.. I think you understand the task at hand, and its a pretty daunting one. It seems that we haven't figured out the magic recipe for a distributed style mechanism. Why? Because its hard -- without a dedicated person putting in effort constantly you apparently can't do it. [0] So, in May I spent a few lovely hours with Christoph König (aka Don Redman, our former style leader) and discussed the current state of affairs here and bantered back and forth on what should be done and how. This helped me define a set of requirements that I think are important for a new style process: - The process should define a rough method for how a style issue gets turned from an idea into a concrete proposal that clearly outlines how the guidelines will change. I don't think the process should define what tools get used to form a proposal, but I think it should clearly define the process of how a proposal is reviewed and accepted/ rejected. It would be good to outline a few example methods to create a proposal. - Instead of working out complex proposals on this mailing list, we should encourage like-minded people to form ad-hoc groups on a particular style issue. These ad-hoc groups should collect input from the community at large and then go about solving a particular issue. It might very well be useful to the group to carry out this initial phase in private. This would keep a lid on the communication in the early stages of a proposal. Once the group finishes a proposal, the proposal should come into the view of the public and be reviewed by everyone who cares to look at it. - Panda discussed creating templates that might give some structure to style proposals. This might give some much needed structure to the overfall process: to create a proposal, use an existing template and fill it out completely. Concrete steps to follow. If the issue doesn't fit one of the available templates, find another way to express/propos the issue. Maybe create a new template while you're at it. - Each proposal should probably include some very basic components. A motivation section that describes the issue at hand, an example case section and a clearly stated goal that the proposal is supposed to solve. - No one person should be able to ham-string the process. No single user vetos. But there must be room for an orderly community revolt in case the process (nukes the fridge/jumps the shark/jumps off the rails). - The style leader should work with myself and perhaps a handful of other people to define this new process. Then this process needs to be documented and set into motion. Initially there would be lots and lots of work to take care of the backlog of issues. Ideally though the style leader should only work when there is a deadlock in the community. Or endless arguing on a point -- the leader should assess the situation, make a decision and move the discussion on. The style leader should be a guide. A tie breaker. A consensus former. Apply lube as needed to keep the process running. Oh, if you want to give a new name to our style process/council/ whatever, please do. Perhaps its time to bring back the term Style Cabal. :) After-all, the Style Leader position is a benevolent dictator position. Jim: I would love to hear what you think of my ideas and how you would tackle the task of defining a working style process! I mean really, a fleece jacket in July. He must live in Canada or something. Oh canadia! [1] [0] http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/02/the_bottom_is_n.php [1] http://flickr.com/photos/mayhem/267098825/ -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Jun 30, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: FYI: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=332 Panda won't be the next style leader -- real life swallowed him whole. :-( Sigh. Zero responses in total. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to proceed with the Style Council? -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Jul 10, 2008, at 12:49 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: On Jun 30, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: FYI: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=332 Panda won't be the next style leader -- real life swallowed him whole. :-( Sigh. Zero responses in total. Ooops, that was not correct. Jim DeLaHunt expressed interest. If you have any thoughts on Jim being the style leader, please drop me a *private* email. Thanks! -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Robert Kaye [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 10, 2008, at 12:49 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: On Jun 30, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: FYI: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=332 Panda won't be the next style leader -- real life swallowed him whole. :-( Sigh. Zero responses in total. Ooops, that was not correct. Jim DeLaHunt expressed interest. If you have any thoughts on Jim being the style leader, please drop me a *private* email. Thanks! This is absolutely not against Jim, but do we really need a style leader? I mean, do we need someone to hold such a formal position? -- Frederic Da Vitoria ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 16:28, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Robert Kaye [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 10, 2008, at 12:49 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: On Jun 30, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: FYI: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=332 This is absolutely not against Jim, but do we really need a style leader? I mean, do we need someone to hold such a formal position? From the blog post: The style guideline process has been stuck in neutral for quite some time The major difference is that the new style leader would have the authority and presence to move these proposals along when they get stuck. I can't help but, well, completely agree with these comments. Without such a role, it's been hard to keep any momentum. ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:39 PM, Andrew Conkling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 16:28, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Robert Kaye [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 10, 2008, at 12:49 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: On Jun 30, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: FYI: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=332 This is absolutely not against Jim, but do we really need a style leader? I mean, do we need someone to hold such a formal position? From the blog post: The style guideline process has been stuck in neutral for quite some time The major difference is that the new style leader would have the authority and presence to move these proposals along when they get stuck. I can't help but, well, completely agree with these comments. Without such a role, it's been hard to keep any momentum. Good point. -- Frederic Da Vitoria ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
Robert Kaye wrote: ... FYI: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=332 If you have any thoughts on Jim being the style leader, please drop me a *private* email. Of course it's obvious to anyone who sees how he dresses that Jim is hopelessly unqualified to be a style leader. I mean really, a fleece jacket in July. He must live in Canada or something. - -- http://jdlh.com/ Jim DeLaHunt , Vancouver, Canada • http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/JimDeLaHunt -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Looking-for-a-new-style-leader-tp18205649s2885p18397085.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
FYI: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=332 Panda won't be the next style leader -- real life swallowed him whole. :-( -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
