Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-02-19 Thread Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Not sure what the state of affairs is here. Should this be going back
to RFC? There was a lot of support in the RFV, but some objections too.

That doesn't seem like it would be reasonable - it's going to be vetoed
with the exact same reasoning.

The proposal process says if the changes would entail a rewrite, or
rethink, of the proposal itself, then a counter-proposal should be created,
and the decision as to which proposal will pass should be left to the style
list.

In this case, clearly the counter-proposal is simply do not add
mini-album - so I've created a poll to vote on this. Please do give your
opinion:
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Reosarevok/Mini-Album_Voting

Cheers,
Nicolás
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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-02-12 Thread Staffan Vilcans
30 januari 2014, drsaunde drsau...@hotmail.com skrev:
 What i'm saying is that mini-album and EP are the same thing with a
different name. Why should we have 2 categories that represent the same
thing?



I'd say they are not. An EP is generally 4-5 tracks while a mini-album is
somewhere between EP and album length (usually something like 10 or more
tracks).

It would also be nice to have maxi-single as an option.



30 januari 2014, drsaunde drsau...@hotmail.com skrev:What i'm saying is that mini-album and EP are the same thing with adifferent name.  Why should we have 2 categories that represent the samething?I'd say they are not. An EP is generally 4-5 tracks while a mini-album is somewhere between EP and album length (usually something like 10 or more tracks).It would also be nice to have maxi-single as an option.___
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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-02-12 Thread lixobix
Staffan Vilcans wrote
 30 januari 2014, drsaunde lt;

 drsaunde@

 gt; skrev:
 What i'm saying is that mini-album and EP are the same thing with a
 different name. Why should we have 2 categories that represent the same
 thing?


 
 I'd say they are not. An EP is generally 4-5 tracks while a mini-album is
 somewhere between EP and album length (usually something like 10 or more
 tracks).
 
 It would also be nice to have maxi-single as an option.
 
 
 
 
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 lt;http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/attachment/4662342/0/untitled-%5B2.1%5Dgt;

+1 also for the reasons I stated in RFV.

Not sure what the state of affairs is here. Should this be going back to
RFC? There was a lot of support in the RFV, but some objections too.



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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-30 Thread drsaunde
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
 That's why, given that our definition is circular (it's an EP if it's an
 EP) I can't see how it can be used to block mini-album. Saying Usually
 it
 should only be assumed that a release is a mini-album if the artist/label
 defines it as such seems perfectly valid.

What i'm saying is that mini-album and EP are the same thing with a
different name.  Why should we have 2 categories that represent the same
thing?

Albums are sometimes called LP's.  Should the fact that we have a category
Album block us from adding a new category LP, well no, but it doesn't
make much sense to me to have 2 different categories to represent the same
thing.

drsaunde




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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-30 Thread lixobix
drsaunde wrote
 What i'm saying is that mini-album and EP are the same thing with a
 different name.  Why should we have 2 categories that represent the same
 thing?
 
 Albums are sometimes called LP's.  Should the fact that we have a category
 Album block us from adding a new category LP, well no, but it doesn't
 make much sense to me to have 2 different categories to represent the same
 thing.
 
 drsaunde

In some cases, such as the examples I posted above, they are treated as
something different to EPs. Yes, in other cases the term EP and Mini-Album
are used interchangeably, in which case just use EP. But in the cases where
the release is specifically called a mini-album, that should be used.

I don't see how you can distinguish between and album and and EP, but not an
album and a mini album. The terms reflect nothing more than the average
number of tracks/length, and what the artist/label decides it is.



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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-30 Thread Staffan
30 januari 2014, drsaunde drsau...@hotmail.com skrev:What i'm saying is that mini-album and EP are the same thing with adifferent name.  Why should we have 2 categories that represent the samething?I'd say they are not. An EP is generally 4-5 tracks while a mini-album is somewhere between EP and album length (usually something like 10 or more tracks).It would also be nice to have maxi-single as an option.

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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-29 Thread Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 10:41 PM, lixobix arjtap...@gmail.com wrote:

 drsaunde wrote
 
  Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
  Not really - proposals pass if they're not vetoed. kuno specifically
 said
  he wasn't vetoing this - I'm not sure about drsaunde so let's wait a bit
  and see if he clarifies it :)
  Based on the examples provided and the proposal, I cannot find any
  measurable difference between a mini-album and an EP, so I don't see why
  we need 2 categories for the same thing.

 Well, what's the measurable difference between a single, EP, and album?

 You can have a 42 minute, 8 track EP:

 http://musicbrainz.org/release/95f94241-8568-4d6f-aeb1-3d8da18e5120

 And you can have a 37 minute, 8 track album:

 http://musicbrainz.org/release/d38d37ed-7da8-3105-bc4f-2e7661667126

 The only difference is what the artist/label calls it. So how do you
 justify
 objecting on the basis of lack of a measurable difference? What measurable
 difference is there between single/EP/album that is lacking in relation to
 mini-album?


That's pretty much my view of this too, yes. Given our definition of EP is
it's an EP if called an EP, something called mini-album isn't an EP.
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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-29 Thread drsaunde
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
 You can have a 42 minute, 8 track EP:

 http://musicbrainz.org/release/95f94241-8568-4d6f-aeb1-3d8da18e5120

 And you can have a 37 minute, 8 track album:

 http://musicbrainz.org/release/d38d37ed-7da8-3105-bc4f-2e7661667126

 The only difference is what the artist/label calls it. So how do you
 justify
 objecting on the basis of lack of a measurable difference? What
 measurable
 difference is there between single/EP/album that is lacking in relation
 to
 mini-album?

 
 That's pretty much my view of this too, yes. Given our definition of EP is
 it's an EP if called an EP, something called mini-album isn't an EP.

What's the difference between Album, EP  Single?
These are common terms used in every music related site.  Do people really
not know these differences?  
Sometimes artist will take what we would normally define one of these
categories and calls it another one of the categories.
Artists are like that, they are creative and like to mess with us
discographers concerned with order

These exceptions still don't impact our general definitions of what a
single/EP/Album is

And what about those that are the same release but called Mini-Album in
Japan and EP in North America
or
what about releases that meet our definition or are categorized elsewhere as
and EP or mini-album, but aren't called either on the release...what do we
call them then?

I still don't see any value to have 2 terms for the same thing.

drsaunde



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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-29 Thread drsaunde
drsaunde wrote
 And what about those that are the same release but called Mini-Album in
 Japan and EP in North America
 or
 what about releases that meet our definition or are categorized elsewhere
 as and EP or mini-album, but aren't called either on the release...what do
 we call them then?
 drsaunde

or when they're called mini-album EPs?
http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=2221791



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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-29 Thread Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 2:17 AM, drsaunde drsau...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
  You can have a 42 minute, 8 track EP:
 
  http://musicbrainz.org/release/95f94241-8568-4d6f-aeb1-3d8da18e5120
 
  And you can have a 37 minute, 8 track album:
 
  http://musicbrainz.org/release/d38d37ed-7da8-3105-bc4f-2e7661667126
 
  The only difference is what the artist/label calls it. So how do you
  justify
  objecting on the basis of lack of a measurable difference? What
  measurable
  difference is there between single/EP/album that is lacking in relation
  to
  mini-album?
 
 
  That's pretty much my view of this too, yes. Given our definition of EP
 is
  it's an EP if called an EP, something called mini-album isn't an EP.

 What's the difference between Album, EP  Single?
 These are common terms used in every music related site.  Do people really
 not know these differences?
 Sometimes artist will take what we would normally define one of these
 categories and calls it another one of the categories.
 Artists are like that, they are creative and like to mess with us
 discographers concerned with order

 These exceptions still don't impact our general definitions of what a
 single/EP/Album is


Actually, for EP, we have no general definition at all.

http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Release_Group/Type#EP

Generally an EP will be shorter than a full length release (an LP or Long
Play) and the tracks are usually exclusive to the EP, in other words the
tracks don't come from a previously issued release. EP is fairly difficult
to define; *usually it should only be assumed that a release is an EP if
the artist defines it as such*

That's why, given that our definition is circular (it's an EP if it's an
EP) I can't see how it can be used to block mini-album. Saying Usually it
should only be assumed that a release is a mini-album if the artist/label
defines it as such seems perfectly valid.

I mean, sure, there will be a few cases where the information is
conflicting or both are used, but then, we already have those for EP vs.
Single (and for EPs repackaged as albums with a couple more tracks, and
with vinyl EPs that are CD albums) and we don't say that makes neither EP
nor single nor album an invalid choice :)

(now I *really* need to go to bed, heh)
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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-28 Thread lixobix
drsaunde wrote
 
 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
 Not really - proposals pass if they're not vetoed. kuno specifically said
 he wasn't vetoing this - I'm not sure about drsaunde so let's wait a bit
 and see if he clarifies it :)
 Based on the examples provided and the proposal, I cannot find any
 measurable difference between a mini-album and an EP, so I don't see why
 we need 2 categories for the same thing.

Well, what's the measurable difference between a single, EP, and album?

You can have a 42 minute, 8 track EP:

http://musicbrainz.org/release/95f94241-8568-4d6f-aeb1-3d8da18e5120

And you can have a 37 minute, 8 track album:

http://musicbrainz.org/release/d38d37ed-7da8-3105-bc4f-2e7661667126

The only difference is what the artist/label calls it. So how do you justify
objecting on the basis of lack of a measurable difference? What measurable
difference is there between single/EP/album that is lacking in relation to
mini-album?



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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-27 Thread drsaunde
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
 Not really - proposals pass if they're not vetoed. kuno specifically said
 he wasn't vetoing this - I'm not sure about drsaunde so let's wait a bit
 and see if he clarifies it :)

Don't proposals require at least a +1 from someone other than the proposer? 
In this case that didn't happen as the minuses cancel out the plusses, so it
should fail whether I veto or not.

If that's not the case then fine I will veto.  Based on the examples
provided and the proposal, I cannot find any measurable difference between a
mini-album and an EP, so I don't see why we need 2 categories for the same
thing.

A possible solution would be to rename the EP category to EP/Mini-Album
that would make more sense to me.

drsaunde



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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-27 Thread Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On 27 Jan 2014 20:39, drsaunde drsau...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
  Not really - proposals pass if they're not vetoed. kuno specifically
said
  he wasn't vetoing this - I'm not sure about drsaunde so let's wait a bit
  and see if he clarifies it :)

 Don't proposals require at least a +1 from someone other than the
proposer?
 In this case that didn't happen as the minuses cancel out the plusses, so
it
 should fail whether I veto or not.

Yes, which this got in its RFC phase - this is an RFV and +1 / -1 here are
pointless. It's only vetoed or it passes. Mind, the entire concept of -1
isn't in the process at all and I have no idea where it came from...
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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-27 Thread Kuno Woudt
On 01/27/2014 07:39 PM, drsaunde wrote:
 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
 Not really - proposals pass if they're not vetoed. kuno specifically said
 he wasn't vetoing this - I'm not sure about drsaunde so let's wait a bit
 and see if he clarifies it :)

 Don't proposals require at least a +1 from someone other than the proposer?
 In this case that didn't happen as the minuses cancel out the plusses, so it
 should fail whether I veto or not.

No, the style process isn't that rigid.

At the RFC stage we should discuss until there is a rough consensus, +1 
and -1 can be used to express agreement or disagreement, but it's not 
supposed to be an exact score.

At the RFV stage anyone who wasn't paying attention during the RFC phase 
has a final chance to give their opinion.  If someone strongly disagrees 
with the proposal they can veto it, which in my opinion requires the 
word veto to appear in the body and/or subject of that e-mail -- 
because otherwise it isn't at all clear wtf is going on :D

-- Kuno / warp.

ref. http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposals


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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-26 Thread Mihai Spinei
I guess since the vote tally is two positive and two negative, this is in 
limbo/not passed?
Sorry, I’m new at making feature requests to MB...



On Friday, January 24, 2014 at 7:49, Mihai Spinei wrote:

 Hi,
 Thanks for that description lixobix, I edited it in into my wiki page ^^
   
 http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:D4rkie/Release_Group/Type#Mini-Album  
  
 On Friday, January 24, 2014 at 4:39, Kuno Woudt wrote:
  
  Hi,
   
  On 01/23/2014 07:07 PM, lixobix wrote:
   I'd put something like this in the guidelines:

   A Mini-Album (or Mini-LP) is a release that is in between EP and Album in
   terms of number of tracks and length. The number of tracks is around 7-9,
   and the length varies from around 20-35 mins. There is no strict 
   definition
   along these terms, as many EPs and Albums fit these criteria. What is
   important is that the artist or label consistently refers to the release 
   as
   a Mini-Album. Where this is not the case, notably where Mini-Album and EP
   are used interchangeably, EP should be used.

   
   
  I like this advice of which one to pick if the label/artist/etc.. aren't  
  clear about it.
   
  -- kuno / warp.
   
   
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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-23 Thread Rachel Dwight
This is an RFV, so that may qualify as a veto.

On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:18 AM, Kuno Woudt k...@frob.nl wrote:

 Hello,
 
 On 01/23/2014 02:05 AM, Alex Mauer wrote:
 On 1/22/2014 10:03 AM, Kuno Woudt wrote:
 Hello,
 
 On 01/22/2014 04:33 PM, Mihai Spinei wrote:
 Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for
 now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV
 
 I'm not convinced difference between EP and mini-album is significant
 enough to warrant this distinction in the database, so -1 from me.
 
 As this is an RFV: Is that opinion strong enough to warrant a veto?
 
 No, that was just a -1.  Not a veto.
 
 -- kuno / warp.
 
 
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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-23 Thread drsaunde
Mihai Spinei wrote
 Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for
 now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV
 
 ticket: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-282 
 wiki:
 http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:D4rkie/Release_Group/Type#Mini-Album
 
 Expires of 2014-01-25
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-1 for me as well.  I asked a question whether these mini-albums weren`t
also released in other countries using different termanology, and never
received a response that addresses that.  Perhaps providing some examples as
to what is a mini-album (which we haven`t been given) that could show this
is more than just regional termanology

drsaunde
We shouldn`t be u



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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-23 Thread lixobix
drsaunde wrote
 
 Mihai Spinei wrote
 Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for
 now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV
 
 ticket: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-282 
 wiki:
 http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:D4rkie/Release_Group/Type#Mini-Album
 
 Expires of 2014-01-25
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 -1 for me as well.  I asked a question whether these mini-albums weren`t
 also released in other countries using different termanology, and never
 received a response that addresses that.  Perhaps providing some examples
 as to what is a mini-album (which we haven`t been given) that could show
 this is more than just regional termanology
 
 drsaunde
 We shouldn`t be u

+1 from me

Here are some examples of mini-albums:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur_(The_Clientele_album)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Airbag.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_on_Pilgrim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_a_Blood_Red_Sky

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-album

Obviously, not all releases will consistently called one or the other, but
in cases such as the two above mini-album should be used.

I'd put something like this in the guidelines:

A Mini-Album (or Mini-LP) is a release that is in between EP and Album in
terms of number of tracks and length. The number of tracks is around 7-9,
and the length varies from around 20-35 mins. There is no strict definition
along these terms, as many EPs and Albums fit these criteria. What is
important is that the artist or label consistently refers to the release as
a Mini-Album. Where this is not the case, notably where Mini-Album and EP
are used interchangeably, EP should be used.



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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-23 Thread Kuno Woudt
Hi,

On 01/23/2014 07:07 PM, lixobix wrote:
 I'd put something like this in the guidelines:

 A Mini-Album (or Mini-LP) is a release that is in between EP and Album in
 terms of number of tracks and length. The number of tracks is around 7-9,
 and the length varies from around 20-35 mins. There is no strict definition
 along these terms, as many EPs and Albums fit these criteria. What is
 important is that the artist or label consistently refers to the release as
 a Mini-Album. Where this is not the case, notably where Mini-Album and EP
 are used interchangeably, EP should be used.

I like this advice of which one to pick if the label/artist/etc.. aren't 
clear about it.

-- kuno / warp.


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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-23 Thread Mihai Spinei
Hi,
Thanks for that description lixobix, I edited it in into my wiki page ^^
 
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:D4rkie/Release_Group/Type#Mini-Album 


On Friday, January 24, 2014 at 4:39, Kuno Woudt wrote:

 Hi,
 
 On 01/23/2014 07:07 PM, lixobix wrote:
  I'd put something like this in the guidelines:
  
  A Mini-Album (or Mini-LP) is a release that is in between EP and Album in
  terms of number of tracks and length. The number of tracks is around 7-9,
  and the length varies from around 20-35 mins. There is no strict definition
  along these terms, as many EPs and Albums fit these criteria. What is
  important is that the artist or label consistently refers to the release as
  a Mini-Album. Where this is not the case, notably where Mini-Album and EP
  are used interchangeably, EP should be used.
  
 
 
 I like this advice of which one to pick if the label/artist/etc.. aren't 
 clear about it.
 
 -- kuno / warp.
 
 
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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-22 Thread Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Kuno Woudt k...@frob.nl wrote:

 Hello,

 On 01/22/2014 04:33 PM, Mihai Spinei wrote:
  Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for
  now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV

 I'm not convinced difference between EP and mini-album is significant
 enough to warrant this distinction in the database


Well, given the definition for EP we have is it is an EP if it claims to
be an EP, the fact these don't claim to be EPs but mini-albums would sound
like a significant enough difference.
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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-22 Thread jesus2099
+1



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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-22 Thread Alex Mauer
On 1/22/2014 10:03 AM, Kuno Woudt wrote:
 Hello,

 On 01/22/2014 04:33 PM, Mihai Spinei wrote:
 Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for
 now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV

 I'm not convinced difference between EP and mini-album is significant
 enough to warrant this distinction in the database, so -1 from me.

As this is an RFV: Is that opinion strong enough to warrant a veto?



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Re: [mb-style] RFV STYLE-282: add mini-album primary type

2014-01-22 Thread Kuno Woudt
Hello,

On 01/23/2014 02:05 AM, Alex Mauer wrote:
 On 1/22/2014 10:03 AM, Kuno Woudt wrote:
 Hello,

 On 01/22/2014 04:33 PM, Mihai Spinei wrote:
 Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for
 now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV

 I'm not convinced difference between EP and mini-album is significant
 enough to warrant this distinction in the database, so -1 from me.

 As this is an RFV: Is that opinion strong enough to warrant a veto?

No, that was just a -1.  Not a veto.

-- kuno / warp.


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