move cursor while reading mails
hi, It seems that mutt can not give to users the cursor's position while reading mail , this is a bit uncomfortable for me , Is there mothod which can make mutt display cursor out ? or custom certain key-bindings . thanks!
Re: so many useless text
* Gary Johnson garyj...@spocom.com [2012-11-21 06:54]: On 2012-11-21, horse_rivers wrote: in my mutt mailbox , I do not know why all mails contain so many useless message text , as below: Received: by x Received: from envelope-from xxx Received: by mailxxx .. and so on Yes, the ignore command. See the mutt manual (not man page), section 10.1. Selecting Headers. From the example there, you might try putting these lines in your muttrc: ignore * unignore from date subject to cc You can also hide header lines with 'display-toggle-weed' which is by default bound to the key 'h' ... HTH Stefan pgpVmYBqLybqg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: move cursor while reading mails
/ horse_rivers wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 17:33:22 +0800 / hi, It seems that mutt can not give to users the cursor's position while reading mail , this is a bit uncomfortable for me , Is there mothod which can make mutt display cursor out ? or custom certain key-bindings . thanks! My I ask why that would be useful for you? I don't mean to come across as though you're asking a silly question, far from it. I'm just not clear as to why this would be useful/helpful. BTW, I hope you like my new 72 column line-wrapped mail. It looks beautiful doesn't it and I hope it shows my total commitment to respect those reading it. Best Wishes, Jamie.
Re: Expiring Messages
/ To mutt-users@mutt.org wrote on Sat 10.Nov'12 at 7:39:33 + /
/ David Champion wrote on Fri 9.Nov'12 at 15:00:44 -0600 /
Python option:
$ easy_install parsedatetime
$ python
from parsedatetime.parsedatetime import Calendar
import time
rfc822format = '%a, %d %b %Y %H:%M:%S -'
c = Calendar()
st, flag = c.parse('next Monday at 2pm')
t = time.mktime(st)
tm = time.gmtime(t)
time.strftime(rfc822format, tm)
'Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:00:00 -'
parsedatetime doesn't know anything about timezones, so the mktime and
gmtime are just to adapt the struct_time value from c.parse() from local
time to GMT, so that the RFC822 address can assume it. This lets the
script work for anyone, without needing to calculate a zone offset for
your locale.
That's great David, thank you. I had thought about python but i'm still very
much in the learning process with it so hadn't got that far. That looks
pretty simple, that will give me something to do today. Much appreciation to
you both. Jamie.
Just a quick follow-up on this solution you provided for me David: it's
working very well, i'm really pleased with it. I think with a little
more tweaking here and there you should make it available publicly as a
solution for those of us using old fasioned BSD systems.
Thank you once again for taking the time to write it for me, and the
list users. It's very much appreciated.
Best wishes, Jamie.
linewrap=72 columns.
Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:59:55AM -0600, David Young wrote: On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 04:42:13PM +, John Long wrote: […] Mail and news need to have sane line lengths. 72 or 76 chars are common. It makes people look like AOL groupies when they post 500 character lines. Many of us use console news clients and newsreaders. Is this discussion really happening on a mailing list for mutt, a console email client? Take some responsibility for yourself and your content. Post like a man not a webbot. I cannot believe people are still hewing to this old line. It's like thousands of people fell asleep at their teletypes (I mean the kind that printed on paper) in the 1970s and woke up in 2012. What, you have computers in your pockets but there is no conformance to the width in columns of 40 year-old data terminals any more? Tony is right, it's not reasonable with the variety of display widths, today, to hold people to One, True Email Width. It's also not reasonable to demand that people rigidly conform with strict technical standards when software can (and should) do it for them. In other words, don't treat people like robots. The variety and richness of email is large and growing, but the power and variety of software for reading and writing email is pretty small. Every now and then some jerk sends me an email reply where their contribution is red. Maybe that is worth fighting about on grounds that that's a poor choice of color for readability, but not on grounds that my console is monochrome. I receive a lot of top-posted replies, bottom-posted replies, and inline replies. In conversations, sometimes there are mixtures of all three of those styles and then some---try to read those conversations three months later! Software could digest a lot of this email that doesn't conform to my taste, priorities, available time, attention, perceptual strengths and weaknesses, and spit out something that's not only more palatable but more useful, but software doesn't do that. On a ML, people tend to post regarding a problem they are having. If a person who could possibly help them has to jump through hoops just to read what they have written, it is likely they'd just press the delete key, rather than waste their own time. It's as simple as that. Another way to look at it is: If someone can't take the time to write their post in a clear and legible manner, why should anyone waste their time replying to it. Don't confuse pink whizz bang pop sha-ping pzzang flashing things which kids use to keep in touch with email netiquette on mailing lists. One reason email software is not more useful is that because too many smart people wage a losing war on the new, foreign ways of email instead of programming filters that transform top-posted, red, 5000-column emails to the style of email that they want to read. That's just sad. On a mailing list? Wouldn't bother reading it, straight in the rubbish. (American translation: trash, dumpster.) P.S. It is sad that this topic is actually having to be discussed on **THIS** mailing list. Another tear in the fabric of decency. :( -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X
Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 03:34:13PM -0500, Peter Davis wrote: On 11/20/12 3:18 PM, Rado Q wrote: Software can't do magic, or make up for human failures. Sometimes the responsibility is with the user, not the code. Nope. Totally wrong. The responsibility is entire with the design ^^ file a bug with your editor, it didn't fix your mistake. and the code, and never with the user. Otherwise it's a failed product. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X
Re: move cursor while reading mails
=- Jamie Paul Griffin wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 9:49:25 + -= BTW, I hope you like my new 72 column line-wrapped mail. Yes, very much... I even only read your response rather than OP. :) It looks beautiful doesn't it and I hope it shows my total commitment to respect those reading it. Noted. :) You'll see, it will pay off. -- © Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
Sorry for late reply, postponed then forgot to send...
=- Tony's unattended mail wrote on Tue 20.Nov'12 at 21:02:56 + -=
E.g. if you use a linefeed to end the line of a peom, and then you
also use an identical linefeed to guess at where to break a stream
of text in a paragraph, it's unreasonable to expect the rendering
software to tell the difference, and know how to display this on a
phone that's less than 70 characters wide in a font size that the
user can read.
{...}
The raw form is better for making the important linefeeds meaningful
when there are a diverse number of display devices that cannot rely on
a composer to know what they will read it on and format it for them.
I guess you put too much interpretation/ meaning in plain-text/
text/plain: LF is just that, nothing else, 2 LF are a paragraph,
that's it.
If you want to put more semantics into it, you should use something
else than plain-text, like HTML or even more structured formats.
While you expect readers to narrow down too long lines, you deny
unwrapping because you _assume_ there is more meaning to LF than
just that. Hmm... how often does this really apply?
More often than not plain-text is just plain-text and no poem. ;)
Then unwrapping is as easy as wrapping.
And we could keep it normalized for when you don't/can't wrap.
OTOH, in the case of outlook users doing a reply-all, there is
nothing a filtering tool can do to make it right because order is
not guaranteed. It would impose an unreasonable amount of
sophistication for the filtering tool to hold on to every message
and check it against the proper list distribution (and even if
this were practical, it would slow down your mail). So in this
case, it makes sense for responders to have a list-reply feature
and/or honor the mail-followup-to header.
mailman (and majordomo?) have duplicate checks.
Why is it OK to produce bad stuff and require others to improve
it afterwards?
HTML looks awful, but we don't object because our browsers render
it okay most of the time (and when they don't, we don't blame the
html, we blame our tool for getting it wrong, or we blame the
author for not writing something renders well on lynx, but we
don't blame the language in any case).
Heh, how do you know we don't blame it? :)
Afterall we have CSS now, and html5 coming. ;)
--
© Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.
Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 08:39:02PM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote: compose with no linefeeds, except when a linebreak is really needed (a peom, for example). The the rendering software can wrap where it makes the most sense to, and honor the existing linefeeds that are important. The rendering tool cannot know a important (peom) linefeed apart from the linefeeds of a composer who tried to guess what the reader would prefer. Excuse my ignorance, but what is a peom? -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:01:41AM +, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: I don't like vim. I prefer the old vi, so i'd have to set it in ~/.exrc which mean all files will be line wrapped which is why I haven't done so already. I'll see if theres a muttrc macro or setting I can use to set line wrap just for mail. I use vile rather than vim, you *might* find vile more to your taste and it is actively/currently maintained. -- Chris Green
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
=- Chris Green wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 11:51:52 + -= On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:01:41AM +, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: I don't like vim. I prefer the old vi, so i'd have to set it in ~/.exrc which mean all files will be line wrapped which is why I haven't done so already. I'll see if theres a muttrc macro or setting I can use to set line wrap just for mail. I use vile rather than vim, you *might* find vile more to your taste and it is actively/currently maintained. You can source in bsd-vi, too. Specify $editor in mutt to include your mail-setup. -- © Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
/ Rado Q wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 13:00:12 +0100 / =- Chris Green wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 11:51:52 + -= On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:01:41AM +, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: I don't like vim. I prefer the old vi, so i'd have to set it in ~/.exrc which mean all files will be line wrapped which is why I haven't done so already. I'll see if theres a muttrc macro or setting I can use to set line wrap just for mail. I use vile rather than vim, you *might* find vile more to your taste and it is actively/currently maintained. You can source in bsd-vi, too. Specify $editor in mutt to include your mail-setup. The default BSD vi is what I like the most. I don't like any of these clones that have been made available. Thanks for the tip but I'm not changing my preferred editor. Rado, could you explain a little more about that, I don't understand what you mean exactly? Best wishes, Jamie.
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
=- Jamie Paul Griffin wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 12:14:25 + -= I don't like vim. I prefer the old vi, so i'd have to set it in ~/.exrc which mean all files will be line wrapped which is why I haven't done so already. I'll see if theres a muttrc macro or setting I can use to set line wrap just for mail. You can source in bsd-vi, too. Specify $editor in mutt to include your mail-setup. Rado, could you explain a little more about that, I don't understand what you mean exactly? muttrc: set editor='vi +so path/to/exrc-file-for-mail' -- © Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 07:54:28PM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote: Proper etiquette is established by those in a region, or in a group.. it's based on where you are. If you enter a village where everyone does something, that *is* the etiquette, by definition. To go against it is to lack etiquette. Yeah, the region in this case, is known as the Internet. For some mailing lists, top-posting (as atrocious as it is), is the proper etiquette. Care to point to a code of conduct where that is the case. I was on a mailing list which was for discussion of an open source software which was also used by a lot of Windoze users. Top posted and untrimmed posts tended to be the norm, resulting in threads where each message got ridiculously large, until someone snipped heaps and then it would grow again. The issue came up and, as usual, there was a huge thread about whether top posting was good or bad until one of the mailing list moderators stepped in and basically said it was against the code of conduct. In fact, If I remember correctly, one person was threatened with expulsion for arguing against the code. So it may appear that top posting is the proper etiquette, but I bet that if you read the code of conduct or, heaven forbid, challenge a top poster you'll find that top/bottom posting, not trimming, is (and for very good and hopefully obvious reasons) frowned upon. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:52:58PM -0600, David Champion wrote: * On 19 Nov 2012, Chris Bannister wrote: Ouch! Could you please set the line wrap value in your editor to a sane value? 72 characters seems to be the recommended setting. (I though you had mistakenly sent this mail midstream, there was no content after ...the mailing list manager send. I only saw that there was content when I decided to reply regarding this issue, i.e. your mails are hard to read) I'm concerned that you can't read Jamie's medium-length lines with mutt. You should be able. Are you using a display filter that truncates lines? No, I am not using any display filter. I posted a bit of an explanation earlier in this thread: http://marc.info/?l=mutt-usersm=13534969854w=2 My reading habits are that if I don't want to keep the message or reply to it I press the delete key if I see All at the bottom right of the screen. I have been caught out enough in the past where someone doesn't have a sig or some other means to show that their post has finished and I have pressed the space bar where I thought there was more content, but instead have gone on to the next message. For some reason it annoys the heck out of me, probably because it upsets my reading rhythm :) BTW, I wouldn't call them medium-length lines, not when the line is actually a paragraph. This is if your definition of a line is the same as mine, i.e. terminated by a CR/LF. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
/ Rado Q wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 13:31:58 +0100 / =- Jamie Paul Griffin wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 12:14:25 + -= I don't like vim. I prefer the old vi, so i'd have to set it in ~/.exrc which mean all files will be line wrapped which is why I haven't done so already. I'll see if theres a muttrc macro or setting I can use to set line wrap just for mail. You can source in bsd-vi, too. Specify $editor in mutt to include your mail-setup. Rado, could you explain a little more about that, I don't understand what you mean exactly? muttrc: set editor='vi +so path/to/exrc-file-for-mail' ok, got it, thanks for your help. For what it's worth, I totally understand and agree about the line wrapping issue and the quote trimming, and everything else that was discussed yesterday with regards to mailing list netiquette. I've just not come across this issue with my editor/mail on other lists where many users don't use or seem to care much about line wrapping, although the other stuff is picked up on quickly. I will ensure that all mail to mutt-users from now is line-wrapped at 72 columns. Thanks for the comments/guidance/advice. Best wishes, Jamie.
Re: move cursor while reading mails
* horse_rivers horse_riv...@126.com [11-21-12 04:34]: ... It seems that mutt can not give to users the cursor's position while reading mail , this is a bit uncomfortable for me , Is there mothod which can make mutt display cursor out ? or custom certain key-bindings . a little different but it is possible: set pager=xterm -e joe Editor joe will display cursor position. Many editors provide this function but I am not aware of a text pager which provides this function. You could also choose a graphical editor such as tea as: set pager=tea You can put this parameter into your .muttrc or invoke it when you wish by using the command line at the bottom of the mutt screen, : set pager=tea You could even bind it to a key-combination/hot-key. To return to normal replace with set pager= -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.orgPhoto Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535@ http://linuxcounter.net
Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to
* Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz [11-21-12 06:32]: On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 08:39:02PM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote: compose with no linefeeds, except when a linebreak is really needed (a peom, for example). The the rendering software can wrap where it makes the most sense to, and honor the existing linefeeds that are important. The rendering tool cannot know a important (peom) linefeed apart from the linefeeds of a composer who tried to guess what the reader would prefer. Excuse my ignorance, but what is a peom? You need to replace/adjust the software you utilize to display email as it fails to deal with everyday email by not correcting misspelllings. Remember, it is the responsibility of the reader to properly interpret rather than the writer to make his discourse comprehended. Responsibility is a cruel taskmaster. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.orgPhoto Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535@ http://linuxcounter.net
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
=- Jamie Paul Griffin wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 13:27:04 + -= I've just not come across this issue with my editor/mail on other lists where many users don't use or seem to care much about line wrapping, although the other stuff is picked up on quickly. Resignation submissiveness to the inevitable spreads slowly everywhere... unnoticed until it's too late... just don't give up... resistance is _not_ futile. live long prosper -- © Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
/ Rado Q wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 15:06:08 +0100 / =- Jamie Paul Griffin wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 13:27:04 + -= I've just not come across this issue with my editor/mail on other lists where many users don't use or seem to care much about line wrapping, although the other stuff is picked up on quickly. Resignation submissiveness to the inevitable spreads slowly everywhere... unnoticed until it's too late... just don't give up... resistance is _not_ futile. live long prosper Thanks - I think lol :-) Your cryptic replies are very interesting. Is that a quote from somewhere?
Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to
Well, when it doesn't work to lecture people who are trying to communicate, try ignoring them. On public MLs, whenever my this guy doesn't know how to communicate effectively recognizer goes off, I typically hit 'd' and move on. If the sender never notices, you probably haven't missed anything. If he complains, *then* you get a chance to educate him: A: Why don't you answer my emails? B: Because you write like a drunken monkey? Reading your messages is bootless and exhausting. A: Huh? What's wrong with my writing? [You have reached the Teachable Moment. Shift to a helpful, empowering tone and explain how he can get more from the time he spends on his missives by employing a few powerful conventions. Notice how I didn't say improve your writing or follow rules? There's something that he wants, and you're showing him how to reach out and take it. You're offering him power and influence, *for free*.] Vary the initial answer in accordance with the audience -- you probably wouldn't talk to your boss *quite* that way, but you can find a way that works. Whatever the tactics, the goal is to get him to wonder what's wrong with my writing? Then you can tell him what could become right about it, which is a lot more interesting. -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mw...@iupui.edu I don't do doorbusters. pgpQeCXJ6TTlS.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 02:54:42PM -0600, David Young wrote: On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 09:27:19PM +0100, Holger Weiß wrote: * David Young dyo...@pobox.com [2012-11-20 11:59]: On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 04:42:13PM +, John Long wrote: Take some responsibility for yourself and your content. Post like a man not a webbot. I cannot believe people are still hewing to this old line. It's like thousands of people fell asleep at their teletypes (I mean the kind that printed on paper) in the 1970s and woke up in 2012. The point is not supporting teletypes (though I do print emails to paper quite regularly in 2012), but readability. Extending the line length to more than 70 or 80 characters significantly reduces readability. Of course the point is not supporting teletypes. But if the point is readability, why uphold the readability conventions from another time, medium, and technology like nothing has changed in email content, volume, or the variety and capabilities of clients? Because the human eye, and the way it is mounted and controlled, together with the human visual cortex and the way it processes stimuli, have not changed at all in that interval, and that is the technology which these conventions address. -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mw...@iupui.edu I don't do doorbusters. pgp3tj1jg4yhr.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to
/ Mark H. Wood wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 9:56:23 -0500 / Well, when it doesn't work to lecture people who are trying to communicate, try ignoring them. On public MLs, whenever my this guy doesn't know how to communicate effectively recognizer goes off, I typically hit 'd' and move on. If the sender never notices, you probably haven't missed anything. If he complains, *then* you get a chance to educate him: A: Why don't you answer my emails? B: Because you write like a drunken monkey? Reading your messages is bootless and exhausting. A: Huh? What's wrong with my writing? [You have reached the Teachable Moment. Shift to a helpful, empowering tone and explain how he can get more from the time he spends on his missives by employing a few powerful conventions. Notice how I didn't say improve your writing or follow rules? There's something that he wants, and you're showing him how to reach out and take it. You're offering him power and influence, *for free*.] Vary the initial answer in accordance with the audience -- you probably wouldn't talk to your boss *quite* that way, but you can find a way that works. Whatever the tactics, the goal is to get him to wonder what's wrong with my writing? Then you can tell him what could become right about it, which is a lot more interesting. Your preference, of course, but this just seems unnecessarily intollerant if you ask me. Netiquette is merely a guideline, not a law. People sometimes just reply quickly and therefore forget to adhere to some of the netiquette guidelines, it doesn't mean they should be ignored. Why would you want to adopt such an approach? It's unfriendly and unwelcoming and is one of the reasons people sometimes feel uncomfortable posting to mailing lists in fear of being publicly scorned. Surely that goes against the whole purpose of mailing lists and usenet which is to help people and share information.
Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:27:45PM +, Ken Moffat wrote: On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:59:55AM -0600, David Young wrote: Every now and then some jerk sends me an email reply where their contribution is red. Maybe that is worth fighting about on grounds that that's a poor choice of color for readability, but not on grounds that my console is monochrome. If someone sends me html mail (to a different account), I trash mail in silly colours. On a technical list, I expect plain text and conformity with accepted norms. Eh, I pipe it through lynx, which removes most of the frills and makes it almost readable again. mwood@mhw ~/.mutt $ grep html ~/.mutt/muttrc auto_view text/html alternative_order text/plain text/html application/postscript text mwood@mhw ~ $ grep html /etc/mailcap text/html; /usr/bin/lynx -dump -force_html '%s'; \ copiousoutput; \ description=HTML Text; \ nametemplate=%s.html mwood@mhw ~ $ (Hand-rewrapped to fit my 80-column xterm.) You should see the double-takes at a store when I present one of those your order has arrived, bring a copy of this messages (usually dripping with unnecessary decoration and clutter) which I've printed out of mutt. :-) -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mw...@iupui.edu I don't do doorbusters. pgp8oUCSFbRAa.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:02:28PM +, Ken Moffat wrote: If someone, particularly on a support list, sends an atrociously long line, then it becomes *much* harder to select the appropriate part of that line/paragraph/epistle and delete the rest of it when replying. Ah, well, when *replying*, emacs has a rewrap command. It even recognizes quoted text and adds the quoting prefix, if I use it properly. (Still learning what properly means in this context, though.) -- Mark H. Wood, unrepentant emacser mw...@iupui.edu I don't do doorbusters. pgpRCzbX9opW0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 03:23:30PM +, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: / Mark H. Wood wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 9:56:23 -0500 / Well, when it doesn't work to lecture people who are trying to communicate, try ignoring them. On public MLs, whenever my this guy doesn't know how to communicate effectively recognizer goes off, I typically hit 'd' and move on. [snip] Your preference, of course, but this just seems unnecessarily intollerant if you ask me. Netiquette is merely a guideline, not a law. People sometimes just reply quickly and therefore forget to adhere to some of the netiquette guidelines, it doesn't mean they should be ignored. Why would you want to adopt such an approach? It's unfriendly and unwelcoming and is one of the reasons people sometimes feel uncomfortable posting to mailing lists in fear of being publicly scorned. Surely that goes against the whole purpose of mailing lists and usenet which is to help people and share information. Well, dashing something off without caring whether it is readable is unfriendly and unwelcoming too. If a thought is not worth the effort of writing it well, I have found that generally it is not worth the recipient's effort to read it. I can't help someone if I'm so tired and confused from the effort to winkle out the poster's meaning that I have no brainpower left to help with. Why waste that time? -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mw...@iupui.edu I don't do doorbusters. pgptqEMVwbxxE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
On 2012-11-21, Rado Q l%...@gmx.de wrote: I guess you put too much interpretation/ meaning in plain-text/ text/plain: LF is just that, nothing else, 2 LF are a paragraph, that's it. Too much interpretation is an odd stance to take. It's a necessary amount of interpretation in order to understand the problem. If you fail to interpret the LF sensibly, you end up producing a client that fails to render a text in the most readable way. If you want to put more semantics into it, you should use something else than plain-text, like HTML or even more structured formats. Sure, these are options, options with further problems. Unnecessary options. It is quite possible to use plain text to convey a message that has meaningful LFs. While you expect readers to narrow down too long lines, This expectation is what a reader places on their own rendering tool. Or not-- if they stubborn about moving away from a poor quality reader, they can ignore unwrapped messages. Where I object is when someone with a poor quality tool tries to impose a format on an author for not catering to an unknown readers tool that renders poorly. This idea of forcing users to adapt to those with poor quality tools enables the poor quality tools to go uncorrected. It's tools that serve humans, not the contrary. So we should not make humans into crutches for lousy tools. you deny unwrapping because you _assume_ there is more meaning to LF than just that. What do you mean just that? LF means begin next line now. So as an author posting text to a forum, at what point do you need an LF? Not after XX width, because that makes poor assumptions about the readers medium (is it an LCD, or a phone?). If it's the end of a line of poetry, or source code, sure, then it's appropriate to call for a new line. Hmm... how often does this really apply? More than zero percent. Which means you need reasonable rationale to advocate for assigning an ambiguous role to the LF. More often than not plain-text is just plain-text and no poem. ;) Then unwrapping is as easy as wrapping. Then it's a wash in those other cases, and doesn't matter, so there's no sense in discussing such cases. OTOH, in the case of outlook users doing a reply-all, there is nothing a filtering tool can do to make it right because order is not guaranteed. It would impose an unreasonable amount of sophistication for the filtering tool to hold on to every message and check it against the proper list distribution (and even if this were practical, it would slow down your mail). So in this case, it makes sense for responders to have a list-reply feature and/or honor the mail-followup-to header. mailman (and majordomo?) have duplicate checks. That feature causes the favorable (list distributed) message to be withheld, while the unfavorable (direct) message gets through. Which means haphazard filtering because of the lacking headers. The list cannot drop the message that goes direct from the sender to the user.
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
* On 21 Nov 2012, Chris Bannister wrote: On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:52:58PM -0600, David Champion wrote: * On 19 Nov 2012, Chris Bannister wrote: Ouch! Could you please set the line wrap value in your editor to a sane value? 72 characters seems to be the recommended setting. (I though you had mistakenly sent this mail midstream, there was no content after ...the mailing list manager send. I only saw that there was content when I decided to reply regarding this issue, i.e. your mails are hard to read) I'm concerned that you can't read Jamie's medium-length lines with mutt. You should be able. Are you using a display filter that truncates lines? No, I am not using any display filter. I posted a bit of an explanation earlier in this thread: http://marc.info/?l=mutt-usersm=13534969854w=2 I'm not in this fight, just trying to determine whether there's a technical problem with mutt, or a configuration issue at your end that we can help with. You wrote that there was no content after ... the mailing list manager send. That sounds as though mutt didn't display the whole line. It should, and it does for me. I have pressed the space bar where I thought there was more content, but instead have gone on to the next message. For some reason it annoys the heck out of me, probably because it upsets my reading rhythm :) Me too. From my .muttrc: ## Stop at end of messages (instead of moving on to next message)? set pager_stop BTW, I wouldn't call them medium-length lines, not when the line is actually a paragraph. This is if your definition of a line is the same as mine, i.e. terminated by a CR/LF. Long lines is a common term for lines that exceed the RFC line limit of 999 characters -- i.e. a technical term in the context of discussing e-mail software. Jamie's lines were not long lines in that sense, so I needed another term. -- David Champion • d...@bikeshed.us
Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 12:09:17AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote: Because there are no CR/LF in a paragraph then it is treated all as one line. Interesting, considering that Unix doesn't use CR/LF ... it uses a single newline instead. So I suppose that means that the entire e-mail, from the From line to the end of the sig is all one paragraph, then? :-) Later, --jim -- THE SCORE: ME: 2 CANCER: 0 73 DE N5IAL (/4)MiSTie #49997 Running Mac OS X Lion spooky1...@gmail.comICBM/Hurr.: 30.44406N 86.59909W My policy on spammers: Castrate first, ask questions later. Android Apps Listing at http://www.jstrack.org/barcodes.html
Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to
* On 21 Nov 2012, Chris Bannister wrote: Because there are no CR/LF in a paragraph then it is treated all as one line. If the first line of a paragraph appears at the bottom of the screen as yours did then mutt displays All on the far right of the status line. This gives the impression that that is all there is to the post, and hence the reason I thought you'd accidently sent it before completing it. I think I see what you're saying now. It's not that mutt wouldn't display the whole message, but that when your window stops on the first terminal (logical) line of the last physical line of the message, mutt still indicates All instead of, e.g. 90%. This prompts you not to finish reading. It may be appropriate to do something about this in mutt. Regardless, whatever the other pros or cons of wrapping at N columns, this should not be counted among reasons to wrap. It should either be user (reader) error or software error, because it's entirely a consequence of how the reader's software works or fails to work well. -- David Champion • d...@bikeshed.us
Re: mutt over hyperterminal
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 07:58:15AM +, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: / Matthias Apitz wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 6:54:38 +0100 / Most likely the charset of your terminal does not match the NLS environment (LANG) which you have after login into the Ubuntu. I do not know hyperterminal, i.e. if you can control this in hyperterminal; if not, use PuTTY as a terminal. There are a couple of really good Terminal emulators I used to use on Windows, Console2 was my personal favourite: Another is Zoc Well, I used MobaXTerm. ( http://mobaxterm.mobatek.net ) It is a quite cool mix of Cygwin-Binaries with a custom interface that feels like a really good Unix-environment under windows. It also integrates a X11-Server and many other tools, while everything is portable within on binary. Regards, Andre -- Andre Klärner smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 05:02:50PM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote: LF means begin next line now. So as an author posting text to a forum, at what point do you need an LF? Not after XX width, because that makes poor assumptions about the readers medium (is it an LCD, or a phone?). So you don't make an assumption about the e-mail client of any reader on the list...not even that their MUA displays very long lines correctly, right? So, you can't assume that it wants very short lines, or likes very long lines, or somewhere in-between. I guess that means you can't send the message at all, right? Somewhere, you have to make as assumptino. At this time, the generally accepted assumption is to wrap at around 72--76 characters (with the obvious exception of posting code, etc., where lines may often end up longer unless you escape the newline and continue the line of code (indented, of course) on the next line. As others have also mentioned, lines that don't wrap---not everyone uses Mutt or other smart MUAs, and even if you do, in a wider xterm, the longer lines can be much more difficult to read---they are for me, anyways, so I usually just delete the message without even bothering with it (if I'm using a wider xterm or an e-mail client that doesn't correct the line length, or gets it wrong). Later, --jim -- THE SCORE: ME: 2 CANCER: 0 73 DE N5IAL (/4)MiSTie #49997 Running Mac OS X Lion spooky1...@gmail.comICBM/Hurr.: 30.44406N 86.59909W My policy on spammers: Castrate first, ask questions later. Android Apps Listing at http://www.jstrack.org/barcodes.html
Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 03:23:30PM +, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: People sometimes just reply quickly and therefore forget to adhere to some of the netiquette guidelines, it doesn't mean they should be ignored. Yes, it does. If your correspondence is impolite or thoughtless, then giving you what you want (an answer) only encourages that behavior. The social contract (necessarily) works both ways. -- Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02 -=-=-=-=- This message is posted from an invalid address. Replying to it will result in undeliverable mail due to spam prevention. Sorry for the inconvenience. pgpK9DEpKmJSh.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Putting table in email?
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 07:03:07AM +, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: I, like David do prefer vi over vim not that it's especially relevent, so this is great. Being set-up immediately here :-) thanks guys I'm going to post this one (two-part) comment on preferred editors.. The right/best editor is the one that works for the individual using it. For me, that's vim. For anyone else, it might be vim, vi, emacs, or Fred's Editor, or .. :-) All, of course, just my opinion. Later, --jim -- THE SCORE: ME: 2 CANCER: 0 73 DE N5IAL (/4)MiSTie #49997 Running Mac OS X Lion spooky1...@gmail.comICBM/Hurr.: 30.44406N 86.59909W My policy on spammers: Castrate first, ask questions later. Android Apps Listing at http://www.jstrack.org/barcodes.html
Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value
Mark H. Wood wrote: On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:02:28PM +, Ken Moffat wrote: If someone, particularly on a support list, sends an atrociously long line, then it becomes *much* harder to select the appropriate part of that line/paragraph/epistle and delete the rest of it when replying. Ah, well, when *replying*, emacs has a rewrap command. It even recognizes quoted text and adds the quoting prefix, if I use it properly. (Still learning what properly means in this context, though.) surely, par is the ultimate mail formatter? :-) and you really don't need to understand it. http://www.nicemice.net/par/
Re: Default subject Re: your mail when replying to empty-subject e-mails
2012/11/21 Will Yardley mutt-us...@veggiechinese.net: On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 01:41:02AM +0100, E. Prom wrote: When replying to an e-mail with an empty subject, the subject of the answer is set to Re: your mail. I thought it was configurable, but didn't find anything from a quick search in TFM. Also, it looks like it's hard-coded in send.c. Thanks Will, I will change it the day I'll decide to compile it myself... E.
Re: Default subject Re: your mail when replying to empty-subject e-mails
* On 21 Nov 2012, E. Prom wrote: 2012/11/21 Will Yardley mutt-us...@veggiechinese.net: On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 01:41:02AM +0100, E. Prom wrote: When replying to an e-mail with an empty subject, the subject of the answer is set to Re: your mail. I thought it was configurable, but didn't find anything from a quick search in TFM. Also, it looks like it's hard-coded in send.c. Thanks Will, I will change it the day I'll decide to compile it myself... You could create a personal translation, I guess. -- David Champion • d...@bikeshed.us
Re: Default subject Re: your mail when replying to empty-subject e-mails
On 21/11/12 at 07:00pm, David Champion wrote: You could create a personal translation, I guess. Have any idea how to do? -- Marcelo Brasil (Brazil, for English Speakers) Linux user number 487797
Re: so many useless text
You can also hide header lines with 'display-toggle-weed' which is by default bound to the key 'h' ... HTH Stefan thanks! here is another question:how can I modify the default key-binding of move-down by line? the default key is ENTER,I want to change it to down direction key . BestRegards!
Re: move cursor while reading mails
You can put this parameter into your .muttrc or invoke it when you wish by using the command line at the bottom of the mutt screen, : set pager=tea You could even bind it to a key-combination/hot-key. how to rebind my key ? in muttrc ? thank you !
