Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 14:40 -0700, Gabe Rubin wrote: The Feist Decision held that one can't get a proprietary interest in the unorigianl assembalage of facts (like a phone book listing in alphabetical order, which was the precise question in that case). However, it leaves open protection for an original arrangement which IMDB could arguably present a case for. Nevertheless, there are many causes of actions that iumbd could have outside the scope of copyright law. If you are accessing their site in a way they have expressly forbidden (screenscraping), they could press a tresspass to chattels cause of action. Other companies such as eBay and Verio (I believe, whoever maintains the Whois database) has been succesful on this theory. Feist gives small comfort to someone who is screenscraping a site like imdb against their express wishes. Does anyone have a definition of screenscraping? Is it the smei-automatic harvesting of less than the full page and then storing it your own database for later retrieval? Or does it require a wholesale downloading of the larger part of a site? There must be degrees of behavior here, for example surely to store just, for example, the uid of an entry in your database cannot be a problem? EG I store 0317705 for the incredibles, and nothing more. The mythvideo module then downloads the page each time I want to see info about the incredibles, and displays it in mythbrowser. A slight delay perhaps. How could they object? Anyway google must surely be bigger transgressors than any mythtv user. The whole of imdb is mirrored there, so perhaps we should scrape from there. is it any harder for the imdb.pl script to search and retrieve from google's api? ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users -- Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
Dean Collins wrote: On that matter, I've been tossing around some ideas about a community server. I have some additional real-time functionality I'd like to build in but one of the static concepts is I'd like to build a server that automatically looks up reviews that other myth-tv users have submitted. Eg I love the film The Mechanic with Charles Bronson, some of you guys might see that it is showing on channel xyz but not know anything about it, you might be interested in checking out if anyone else has reviewed it - when you see my write up it might convince you to check it out. It would also be interesting to see if we could get the oztivo guys involved. Does anyone think this is of value? Anyone able to give some advice to my software developer who has never built anything for myth tv in his life before some ideas about how to set it up? Any thoughts? Cheers, Dean It is a good thought, but impractical I think. There are plenty of review sites that are already in existence. However, along the same lines, what about a site similar to Audioscrobbler (http://www.audioscrobbler.com/) but for videos. In case you don't know, Audioscrobbler tracks users' played audio songs and correlates artist and track information. You can then find other users with similar musical tastes, create groups of users that have a similar cause or identity, you can even get recommendations on new artists or tracks based on what you are currently listening to. Applying this same concept to MythTV and video would be a very interesting project. Having the ability to see that if you have watched xyz show, other users who have watched that show also watch abc show. A large step from the imdb topic I know, but this post got my mind thinking. David ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
RE: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?-audiscrobbler
It is a good thought, but impractical I think. There are plenty of review sites that are already in existence. However, along the same lines, what about a site similar to Audioscrobbler (http://www.audioscrobbler.com/) but for videos. In case you don't know, Audioscrobbler tracks users' played audio songs and correlates artist and track information. You can then find other users with similar musical tastes, create groups of users that have a similar cause or identity, you can even get recommendations on new artists or tracks based on what you are currently listening to. Applying this same concept to MythTV and video would be a very interesting project. Having the ability to see that if you have watched xyz show, other users who have watched that show also watch abc show. A large step from the imdb topic I know, but this post got my mind thinking. David [DC] End user generated content is a great idea, and I like the idea of audioscrobbler (though haven't used it) but I think with music it makes more sense than video as we can download music ad hoc as it's recommended, a little hard to do with video. Though I like the idea and I think it would make sense to have a field if you liked this also check out these videos section at the bottom of a mythtv user reviews database. Cheers, Dean ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
[mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
I don't think that the IMDB screen scraping that mythVideo is using is legal under the rules and conditions with IMDB.http://www.imdb.com/conditions Does myth tv have written consent to use the information? The Reason I Ask is that Im writing my own program and running into legal problems, and remember that Myth does the same thing. --_\ | /_ (@ @)-oOOo-(_)-oOOo-~ Mark Gardner ~ ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
I'd imagine that no, it's not a good thing. That being said, I think IMDB might offer a web services REST/SOAP api through Amazon; barring that, a lot of IMDB's data is exposed through amazon's webservices (ECS 4.0) interface.. http://webservices.amazon.com Cheers, -=Aaron Mark Gardner wrote: I don't think that the IMDB screen scraping that mythVideo is using is legal under the rules and conditions with IMDB. http://www.imdb.com/conditions Does myth tv have written consent to use the information? The Reason I Ask is that Im writing my own program and running into legal problems, and remember that Myth does the same thing. -- _\ | /_ (@ @) -oOOo-(_)-oOOo- ~ Mark Gardner ~ ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
Quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Movie_Database#Copyright_issues All volunteers who contribute content to the database retain copyright to their contributions but grant full rights to copy, modify, and sublicense the content to IMDb. IMDb in turn does not allow others to use movie summaries or actor biographies without written permission. Using filtering software to avoid the display of advertisements from the site is also explicitly forbidden. Only small subsets of filmographies are allowed to be quoted, and only on non-commercial websites. The latter restrictions on the use of data may be unenforceable, as the U.S. Supreme Court in Feist v. Rural ruled that collections of facts are not protected by copyright. With that being said... i can say anything to scare you but that doesn't mean i can take it to court and win.On 7/8/05, Aaron Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I'd imagine that no, it's not a good thing. That being said, I think IMDB might offer a web services REST/SOAP apithrough Amazon; barring that, a lot of IMDB's data is exposed throughamazon's webservices (ECS 4.0) interface.. http://webservices.amazon.comCheers,-=AaronMark Gardner wrote: I don't think that the IMDB screen scraping that mythVideo is using is legal under the rules and conditions with IMDB. http://www.imdb.com/conditions Does myth tv have written consent to use the information? The Reason I Ask is that Im writing my own program and running into legal problems, and remember that Myth does the same thing. -- _\ | /_(@ @) -oOOo-(_)-oOOo- ~ MarkGardner ~ ___mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.orghttp://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users___ mythtv-users mailing listmythtv-users@mythtv.orghttp://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
SNIP explicitly forbidden. Only small subsets of filmographies are allowed to be quoted, and only on non-commercial websites. The latter restrictions on the use of data may be unenforceable, as the U.S. Supreme Court in Feist v. Rural ruled that collections of facts are not protected by copyright. With that being said... i can say anything to scare you but that doesn't mean i can take it to court and win. Ok great there is a possible legal loophole that Myth would fit into. But as a community project i feel we have a greater responsibility. If a site askes not to be screen scraped, whe should comply with their wishes. Especialy when there is another alternative that is free, and completely legal. -- _\ | /_ (@ @) -oOOo-(_)-oOOo- ~ Mark Gardner ~ ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
RE: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
On that matter, I've been tossing around some ideas about a community server. I have some additional real-time functionality I'd like to build in but one of the static concepts is I'd like to build a server that automatically looks up reviews that other myth-tv users have submitted. Eg I love the film The Mechanic with Charles Bronson, some of you guys might see that it is showing on channel xyz but not know anything about it, you might be interested in checking out if anyone else has reviewed it - when you see my write up it might convince you to check it out. It would also be interesting to see if we could get the oztivo guys involved. Does anyone think this is of value? Anyone able to give some advice to my software developer who has never built anything for myth tv in his life before some ideas about how to set it up? Any thoughts? Cheers, Dean -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:mythtv-users- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Gardner Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 4:23 PM To: andrew matthews; Discussion about mythtv Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal? SNIP explicitly forbidden. Only small subsets of filmographies are allowed to be quoted, and only on non-commercial websites. The latter restrictions on the use of data may be unenforceable, as the U.S. Supreme Court in Feist v. Rural ruled that collections of facts are not protected by copyright. With that being said... i can say anything to scare you but that doesn't mean i can take it to court and win. Ok great there is a possible legal loophole that Myth would fit into. But as a community project i feel we have a greater responsibility. If a site askes not to be screen scraped, whe should comply with their wishes. Especialy when there is another alternative that is free, and completely legal. -- _\ | /_ (@ @) -oOOo-(_)-oOOo- ~ Mark Gardner ~ ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
On 7/8/05, Mark Gardner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SNIP explicitly forbidden. Only small subsets of filmographies are allowed to be quoted, and only on non-commercial websites. The latter restrictions on the use of data may be unenforceable, as the U.S. Supreme Court in Feist v. Rural ruled that collections of facts are not protected by copyright. With that being said... i can say anything to scare you but that doesn't mean i can take it to court and win. Ok great there is a possible legal loophole that Myth would fit into. But as a community project i feel we have a greater responsibility. If a site askes not to be screen scraped, whe should comply with their wishes. Especialy when there is another alternative that is free, and completely legal. IANAL - I don't think that scraping would be covered under that ruling due to the definition of a 'collection of facts'. I agree that if a site states that certain uses of its data are forbidden then it should be respected, especially as the data concerned is the property of the site. It is however quite hard to regulate access to a busy site if data is coming from a 'normal' request and being used non-commercially. This seems to be a situation similar to the gathering of TV listings e.g Tribune, and whereby a pay service would allow the content to be licensed for a particular use. There is however the possibility to have the imdb data local (ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/misc/movies/database/tools/movie-database-faq) which _may_ offer a compromise (no scraping, but additional overhead). Nick ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
Since the majority of frontends out there are designed to run without keyboards, how many people do you think would actually bother to submit review material? Dean Collins wrote: On that matter, I've been tossing around some ideas about a community server. I have some additional real-time functionality I'd like to build in but one of the static concepts is I'd like to build a server that automatically looks up reviews that other myth-tv users have submitted. Eg I love the film The Mechanic with Charles Bronson, some of you guys might see that it is showing on channel xyz but not know anything about it, you might be interested in checking out if anyone else has reviewed it - when you see my write up it might convince you to check it out. It would also be interesting to see if we could get the oztivo guys involved. Does anyone think this is of value? Anyone able to give some advice to my software developer who has never built anything for myth tv in his life before some ideas about how to set it up? Any thoughts? Cheers, Dean -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:mythtv-users- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Gardner Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 4:23 PM To: andrew matthews; Discussion about mythtv Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal? SNIP explicitly forbidden. Only small subsets of filmographies are allowed to be quoted, and only on non-commercial websites. The latter restrictions on the use of data may be unenforceable, as the U.S. Supreme Court in Feist v. Rural ruled that collections of facts are not protected by copyright. With that being said... i can say anything to scare you but that doesn't mean i can take it to court and win. Ok great there is a possible legal loophole that Myth would fit into. But as a community project i feel we have a greater responsibility. If a site askes not to be screen scraped, whe should comply with their wishes. Especialy when there is another alternative that is free, and completely legal. -- _\ | /_ (@ @) -oOOo-(_)-oOOo- ~ Mark Gardner ~ ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
On 7/8/05, Aaron Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since the majority of frontends out there are designed to run without keyboards, how many people do you think would actually bother to submit review material? On a similar note, do we have some kind of estimate of total MythTV users? I think it's a good idea in theory, I' m wondering whether such a venture would be sustainable due to a) the total number of MythTV users, and b) the proportion of those who would actively contribute content, especially if they could contribute. Perhaps something that interfaces between the remote-controlled frontend and the TV listings would be a suitable application - e.g. a central server contains the details of the ratings/suggestions of shows/movies that users can make via the remote from their armchair when checking the listings (e.g. menu option 'Mark as recommended')). A similar feature could then be used to filter future listings to show those shows/movies that are recommended or highly recommended by other MythTV users but with the option to add opinions which can be read if the users so wish. Nick ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
Getting back to my original point.. How many people want to volunteer for writing up reviews using a remote control and selecting letters individually? ;) Nick wrote: On 7/8/05, Aaron Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since the majority of frontends out there are designed to run without keyboards, how many people do you think would actually bother to submit review material? On a similar note, do we have some kind of estimate of total MythTV users? I think it's a good idea in theory, I' m wondering whether such a venture would be sustainable due to a) the total number of MythTV users, and b) the proportion of those who would actively contribute content, especially if they could contribute. Perhaps something that interfaces between the remote-controlled frontend and the TV listings would be a suitable application - e.g. a central server contains the details of the ratings/suggestions of shows/movies that users can make via the remote from their armchair when checking the listings (e.g. menu option 'Mark as recommended')). A similar feature could then be used to filter future listings to show those shows/movies that are recommended or highly recommended by other MythTV users but with the option to add opinions which can be read if the users so wish. Nick ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
The Feist Decision held that one can't get a proprietary interest in the unorigianl assembalage of facts (like a phone book listing in alphabetical order, which was the precise question in that case). However, it leaves open protection for an original arrangement which IMDB could arguably present a case for. Nevertheless, there are many causes of actions that iumbd could have outside the scope of copyright law. If you are accessing their site in a way they have expressly forbidden (screenscraping), they could press a tresspass to chattels cause of action. Other companies such as eBay and Verio (I believe, whoever maintains the Whois database) has been succesful on this theory. Feist gives small comfort to someone who is screenscraping a site like imdb against their express wishes. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
On Jul 8, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Aaron Stewart wrote: Getting back to my original point.. How many people want to volunteer for writing up reviews using a remote control and selecting letters individually? ;) A remote interface that uses morse code could be written. Apologies to those that do not read /. Seriously though, even if you don't have a keyboard on your front end, I doubt there are many people who run myth on a frontend without a keyboard that do not have another machine without a keyboard. You could run the frontend on your desktop to write reviews with your keyboard, or it could be a mythweb module, and you could use the keyboard on your regular browser. As for the real point, the reviews would have to be much better than, for example, the product reviews on Amazon. While there are benefits to everyone having a voice, the spam factor also comes into play. -Michael ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
My concern is not whether or not the user has another computer.. it's the break-up of the work.. You watch a show, then have to walk to your computer in your (office,kitchen,bedroom,livingroom,etc) and type in a review. I just don't think it'll happen. Granted, there are a select number of users who are really quite interested in writing reviews (hence why Amazon's reviews are thriving), but if I were to pick a number, say 5%, of myth users who were contributing, we'd still end up with a fairly paltry sample of data. Speaking of which, we could just use the product reviews from amazon's feed.. not great for brand new tv shows that aren't on DVD, but for those that are, or for movies, etc, it would work perfectly. And for those who actually _did_ want to write reviews, why not forward them to amazon's review system, and reciprocate that way? -=A Michael Carland wrote: On Jul 8, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Aaron Stewart wrote: Getting back to my original point.. How many people want to volunteer for writing up reviews using a remote control and selecting letters individually? ;) A remote interface that uses morse code could be written. Apologies to those that do not read /. Seriously though, even if you don't have a keyboard on your front end, I doubt there are many people who run myth on a frontend without a keyboard that do not have another machine without a keyboard. You could run the frontend on your desktop to write reviews with your keyboard, or it could be a mythweb module, and you could use the keyboard on your regular browser. As for the real point, the reviews would have to be much better than, for example, the product reviews on Amazon. While there are benefits to everyone having a voice, the spam factor also comes into play. -Michael ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
On Fri 8 July 2005 21:56, Nick wrote: IANAL - I don't think that scraping would be covered under that ruling due to the definition of a 'collection of facts'. I agree that if a site states that certain uses of its data are forbidden then it should be respected, especially as the data concerned is the property of the site. It is however quite hard to regulate access to a busy site if data is coming from a 'normal' request and being used non-commercially. This seems to be a situation similar to the gathering of TV listings e.g Tribune, and whereby a pay service would allow the content to be licensed for a particular use. It comes down to a moral, if not legal issue. You can look for and probably find loopholes in their request, but it goes against the spirit if not the letter of the terms to do so. If Isaac asked that others not 'scrape' information from mythtv.org then we would honour his request and all stand up to defend his rights. Just because we don't know the people behind imdb.com doesn't make it right to use their content without permission. Someone, preferably a developer should just email and obtain written permission. You won't get if you don't ask but we should be prepared to recieve (and respect) a negative response. -- Stuart Morgan ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
On Fri, Jul 08, 2005 at 11:13:37PM +0100, Stuart Morgan wrote: On Fri 8 July 2005 21:56, Nick wrote: IANAL - I don't think that scraping would be covered under that ruling due to the definition of a 'collection of facts'. I agree that if a site states that certain uses of its data are forbidden then it should be respected, especially as the data concerned is the property of the site. It is however quite hard to regulate access to a busy site if data is coming from a 'normal' request and being used non-commercially. This seems to be a situation similar to the gathering of TV listings e.g Tribune, and whereby a pay service would allow the content to be licensed for a particular use. It comes down to a moral, if not legal issue. You can look for and probably find loopholes in their request, but it goes against the spirit if not the letter of the terms to do so. Of course, given the hijacking of publically contributed information that lead to that database existing in the first place... Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Designer Baylink RFC 2100 Ashworth AssociatesThe Things I Think'87 e24 St Petersburg FL USA http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 If you can read this... thank a system administrator. Or two. --me ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] IMDB Screen Scrap... legal?
On 7/8/05, Stuart Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri 8 July 2005 21:56, Nick wrote: IANAL - I don't think that scraping would be covered under that ruling due to the definition of a 'collection of facts'. I agree that if a site states that certain uses of its data are forbidden then it should be respected, especially as the data concerned is the property of the site. It is however quite hard to regulate access to a busy site if data is coming from a 'normal' request and being used non-commercially. This seems to be a situation similar to the gathering of TV listings e.g Tribune, and whereby a pay service would allow the content to be licensed for a particular use. It comes down to a moral, if not legal issue. You can look for and probably find loopholes in their request, but it goes against the spirit if not the letter of the terms to do so. Agreed. Some users will argue 'well if I neither click on nor am influenced by the advertising on imdb.com anyway, what difference does it make?' and I can appreciate that perspective. When users also visit the site via a browser and see the ads (unless adzap or adblock are running) the lines blur further. The fact that it costs a lot of time and money to run the site is often neglected. If Isaac asked that others not 'scrape' information from mythtv.org then we would honour his request and all stand up to defend his rights. Just because we don't know the people behind imdb.com doesn't make it right to use their content without permission. I'm not sure if I understand which information MythTV scrapes from mythtv.org (in the screen-scraping sense of the word) or is this example just used for comparison - downloading MythTV source aside? As MythTV was and is released under the GPL, and is a growing multi-developer project, it would surely carry on. As long as the rights conferred on the software were preserved with future development, the GPL is still satisfied (AIUI). Someone, preferably a developer should just email and obtain written permission. You won't get if you don't ask but we should be prepared to recieve (and respect) a negative response. They're a UK company (although owned by amazon.com) so you never know. Their mission statement is provide useful and up to date movie information freely available online across as many platforms as possible which gives me at least some hope that they would consider catering for a small but thriving user community. Nick ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
