Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Michael Starks]

John Andersen wrote:
\> In that case you are truly on a fools errand.
> 
> You will NEVER save enough energy with this CPU to recover
> your costs.  Vastly more power could be saved by huge passive
> heat sinks and getting rid of fans.

That may be true, however I have observed (measured) that a modern CPU
under load will consume as much as 30 watts more than when it is idle.

> Running a computer headless saves well in excess of
> 80 percent of the power utilized by the typical desktop
> computer.  Finding the lowest consumption disk drives
> or running fewer of them will save more.  But chaseing
> after the miniscule savings on this CPU, especially
> since you will probably have to replace the mobo tu
> use it will save you nothing.

It's already headless.  Just doing my part to not use more resources
than are necessary.  Thanks.
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[John Andersen]

On 1/24/06, Michael Starks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The power savings are so small as to not be meaningull in a desktop.
> > I'm sure the unstated goal here is heat and fan noise reduction.
>
> Actually, I don't care too much about heat and noise since the server is
> in the basement.  I truly am interested in energy conservation but at
> the same time having a server powerful enough for multiple tasks (Myth,
> Mister House, Asterisk, security cams, etc).

In that case you are truly on a fools errand.

You will NEVER save enough energy with this CPU to recover
your costs.  Vastly more power could be saved by huge passive
heat sinks and getting rid of fans.

Running a computer headless saves well in excess of
80 percent of the power utilized by the typical desktop
computer.  Finding the lowest consumption disk drives
or running fewer of them will save more.  But chaseing
after the miniscule savings on this CPU, especially
since you will probably have to replace the mobo tu
use it will save you nothing.


--
--JSA-
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Matt Jordan]

For a Mini-ITX system (VIA C3) do settings like this matter as well?

Thanks!

Matt

On 1/26/06, Robert Tsai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 08:00:18PM +0100, Marius Schrecker wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 09:49:41AM -0500, Steve Adeff wrote:
> > >> > Robert Tsai wrote:
> > >> > >I have an Athlon64 3500+ Winchester. By default, the
> > >> > >cpufreq-ondemand governor only lets it go from 2.2GHz down to
> > >> > >1.8GHz. I had to tweak it manually to drop it down to 1.0GHz
> > >> > >(nothing available in between):
> >
> > What do you have in
> > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_available_frequencies ?
> >
> > >> > ># cpufreq-set --min 100 --governor ondemand
> >
> > That's interesting. I'm using powernowd, which doesn't let me do
> > that. Is cpufreq-set independant of the minimum frequency in
> > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_min_freq
>
> % grep . scaling_*
> scaling_available_frequencies:220 200 180 100
> scaling_available_governors:ondemand performance
> scaling_cur_freq:100
> scaling_driver:powernow-k8
> scaling_governor:ondemand
> scaling_max_freq:220
> scaling_min_freq:100
>
> --Rob
>
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFD2VG118A6pRrdKfkRAilxAKCswaCfU2uJESZ8M088CEBrLusdOgCdEdJs
> H8R2vdbfEleThSx+2JXrt68=
> =8SjA
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Robert Tsai]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 08:00:18PM +0100, Marius Schrecker wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 09:49:41AM -0500, Steve Adeff wrote:
> >> > Robert Tsai wrote:
> >> > >I have an Athlon64 3500+ Winchester. By default, the
> >> > >cpufreq-ondemand governor only lets it go from 2.2GHz down to
> >> > >1.8GHz. I had to tweak it manually to drop it down to 1.0GHz
> >> > >(nothing available in between):
> 
> What do you have in
> /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_available_frequencies ?
>
> >> > ># cpufreq-set --min 100 --governor ondemand
> 
> That's interesting. I'm using powernowd, which doesn't let me do
> that. Is cpufreq-set independant of the minimum frequency in
> /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_min_freq

% grep . scaling_*
scaling_available_frequencies:220 200 180 100
scaling_available_governors:ondemand performance
scaling_cur_freq:100
scaling_driver:powernow-k8
scaling_governor:ondemand
scaling_max_freq:220
scaling_min_freq:100

--Rob


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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Marius Schrecker]

> On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 09:49:41AM -0500, Steve Adeff wrote:
>> > Robert Tsai wrote:
>> > >I have an Athlon64 3500+ Winchester. By default, the
>> > >cpufreq-ondemand governor only lets it go from 2.2GHz down to
>> > >1.8GHz. I had to tweak it manually to drop it down to 1.0GHz
>> > >(nothing available in between):

What do you have in
/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_available_frequencies ?

>> > >
>> > >  # cpufreq-set --min 100 --governor ondemand
>> > >

That's interesting. I'm using powernowd, which doesn't let me do that. Is
cpufreq-set independant of the minimum frequency in
/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_min_freq

I've tried manipulating the files directly, but anything lower than the
1000
already set gives me 10. With a multiplier of 4 I should be able to
get 800 MHz.

I wish there were also a way to manipulate the voltage settings to drop
below 1 v. at the lowest frequency. The sound of a completely silent cpu
fan would be golden!

Marius
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Chad]

On 1/24/06, Michael Starks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have been thinking of using a laptop CPU to save power on a new MythTV
> system.  Basically, I'd like to be able to use the cpuspeed daemon to
> drop the CPU speed when there isn't a lot going in.  Has anyone done
> with with a full-size mainboard?  Any other tips?
> ___


Why not just look into using the Wake/Sleep feature(s)?

Unless you have, and you are having as much luck as I have ;) (which is none)

Chad
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Michael T. Dean]

On 01/25/2006 01:22 PM, Robert Tsai wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 09:49:41AM -0500, Steve Adeff wrote:
>   
>> how "safe" is letting the CPU change its speed? will it affect how
>> applications run or is it seamless?
>> 
>
> I've been running my machine in this configuration for about a year
> with no problems.
>
> By default, the CPU will speed up to whatever is demanded of it. You
> can also configure cpufreq-ondemand to ignore "niced" processes, so
> that niced processes won't cause the CPU to speed up. Obviously, the
> side effect is that these niced CPU-intensive processes run slower.
>   
Make sure, though, that you're running a relatively recent kernel.  
Older kernels tend to lack full/proper support for "notifiers" (i.e. 
telling things--like timing code--that the CPU frequency has changed) so 
changing the frequency will likely cause problems.

Mike
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Robert Tsai]

On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 09:49:41AM -0500, Steve Adeff wrote:
> > Robert Tsai wrote:
> > >I have an Athlon64 3500+ Winchester. By default, the
> > >cpufreq-ondemand governor only lets it go from 2.2GHz down to
> > >1.8GHz. I had to tweak it manually to drop it down to 1.0GHz
> > >(nothing available in between):
> > >
> > >   # cpufreq-set --min 100 --governor ondemand
> > >
> > >[This is software only; no mucking around with voltage on the
> > >motherboard.]
> 
> how "safe" is letting the CPU change its speed? will it affect how
> applications run or is it seamless?

I've been running my machine in this configuration for about a year
with no problems.

By default, the CPU will speed up to whatever is demanded of it. You
can also configure cpufreq-ondemand to ignore "niced" processes, so
that niced processes won't cause the CPU to speed up. Obviously, the
side effect is that these niced CPU-intensive processes run slower.

--Rob


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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Steve Adeff]

On Wednesday 25 January 2006 05:12, Jo Shields wrote:
> Robert Tsai wrote:
> >On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 09:37:24PM +0100, Marius Schrecker wrote:
> >>>Tom Dombrosky wrote:
> On 1/24/06, *Steve Adeff* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> wrote:
> 
> On Tuesday 24 January 2006 12:34, Michael Starks wrote:
> > I have been thinking of using a laptop CPU to save power on
> > a new MythTV system.  Basically, I'd like to be able to use
> > the cpuspeed daemon to drop the CPU speed when there isn't
> > a lot going in.  Has anyone done with with a full-size
> > mainboard?  Any other tips?
> 
> laptop CPU's use different sockets, etc. I believe some of
> the new mini boards (BTX or something?) use laptop cpu's. I
> also believe desktop cpu's support the cpu speed daemons.
> 
> The Athlon laptop cpus use the same socket.  They will work fine.
> >>>
> >>>A  really minor modificatio can turn a normal Athlon XP into a
> >>>mobile athlon too - which enables you to use the athcool stuff
> >>>under linux. It's pretty straight forward and there's plenty of
> >>>stuff on doing it out there.
> >>
> >>What about the 64 family, any mods there? I'm using an Athlon 64
> >>3700+ San Diego (socket 939) which has pretty good voltage/speed
> >>stepping, although I'd love to be able to drop the lowest step even
> >>more. If anyone knows a mod for that I'd love to know! The kernel
> >>module seems to read the stepping info direct from the cpu or bios,
> >>and I haven't found a way to manipulate this manually, although
> >>googling suggests that a further 10% cut in voltage should be
> >>possible.
> >
> >How slow are you trying to go?
> >
> >I have an Athlon64 3500+ Winchester. By default, the cpufreq-ondemand
> >governor only lets it go from 2.2GHz down to 1.8GHz. I had to tweak it
> >manually to drop it down to 1.0GHz (nothing available in between):
> >
> > # cpufreq-set --min 100 --governor ondemand
> >
> >[This is software only; no mucking around with voltage on the
> >motherboard.]
> >
> >--Rob
>
> There are desktop boards with Socket 479 on them - the form factor used
> by Intel's low-heat low-power high-speed Pentium-M chips - a Dotha-core
> Pentium-M is usually a little faster than an Athlon64 running at an
> identical clock speed. It also works fine with assorted cpufreq
> handlers, and can idle pretty slow as needed, then ramp up automatically
> when needed.
>
> My 1.7Ghz Dothan sits at 800MHz most of the time, and the
> temperature-controlled CPU fan rarely if ever bothers to spin.
>
> The problem (of course) is that Pentium-M, and compatible motherboards,
> are expensive.

how "safe" is letting the CPU change its speed? will it affect how 
applications run or is it seamless?

-- 
Steve
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Jo Shields]

Robert Tsai wrote:

>On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 09:37:24PM +0100, Marius Schrecker wrote:
>  
>
>>>Tom Dombrosky wrote:
>>>  
>>>
On 1/24/06, *Steve Adeff* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
wrote:

On Tuesday 24 January 2006 12:34, Michael Starks wrote:
> I have been thinking of using a laptop CPU to save power on
> a new MythTV system.  Basically, I'd like to be able to use
> the cpuspeed daemon to drop the CPU speed when there isn't
> a lot going in.  Has anyone done with with a full-size
> mainboard?  Any other tips?

laptop CPU's use different sockets, etc. I believe some of
the new mini boards (BTX or something?) use laptop cpu's. I
also believe desktop cpu's support the cpu speed daemons.

The Athlon laptop cpus use the same socket.  They will work fine.


>>>A  really minor modificatio can turn a normal Athlon XP into a
>>>mobile athlon too - which enables you to use the athcool stuff
>>>under linux. It's pretty straight forward and there's plenty of
>>>stuff on doing it out there.
>>>  
>>>
>>What about the 64 family, any mods there? I'm using an Athlon 64
>>3700+ San Diego (socket 939) which has pretty good voltage/speed
>>stepping, although I'd love to be able to drop the lowest step even
>>more. If anyone knows a mod for that I'd love to know! The kernel
>>module seems to read the stepping info direct from the cpu or bios,
>>and I haven't found a way to manipulate this manually, although
>>googling suggests that a further 10% cut in voltage should be
>>possible.
>>
>>
>
>How slow are you trying to go?
>
>I have an Athlon64 3500+ Winchester. By default, the cpufreq-ondemand
>governor only lets it go from 2.2GHz down to 1.8GHz. I had to tweak it
>manually to drop it down to 1.0GHz (nothing available in between):
>
>   # cpufreq-set --min 100 --governor ondemand
>
>[This is software only; no mucking around with voltage on the
>motherboard.]
>
>--Rob
>  
>

There are desktop boards with Socket 479 on them - the form factor used 
by Intel's low-heat low-power high-speed Pentium-M chips - a Dotha-core 
Pentium-M is usually a little faster than an Athlon64 running at an 
identical clock speed. It also works fine with assorted cpufreq 
handlers, and can idle pretty slow as needed, then ramp up automatically 
when needed.

My 1.7Ghz Dothan sits at 800MHz most of the time, and the 
temperature-controlled CPU fan rarely if ever bothers to spin.

The problem (of course) is that Pentium-M, and compatible motherboards, 
are expensive.
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Robert Tsai]

On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 09:37:24PM +0100, Marius Schrecker wrote:
> > Tom Dombrosky wrote:
> >> On 1/24/06, *Steve Adeff* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tuesday 24 January 2006 12:34, Michael Starks wrote:
> >> > I have been thinking of using a laptop CPU to save power on
> >> > a new MythTV system.  Basically, I'd like to be able to use
> >> > the cpuspeed daemon to drop the CPU speed when there isn't
> >> > a lot going in.  Has anyone done with with a full-size
> >> > mainboard?  Any other tips?
> >>
> >> laptop CPU's use different sockets, etc. I believe some of
> >> the new mini boards (BTX or something?) use laptop cpu's. I
> >> also believe desktop cpu's support the cpu speed daemons.
> >>
> >> The Athlon laptop cpus use the same socket.  They will work fine.
> >
> > A  really minor modificatio can turn a normal Athlon XP into a
> > mobile athlon too - which enables you to use the athcool stuff
> > under linux. It's pretty straight forward and there's plenty of
> > stuff on doing it out there.
> 
> What about the 64 family, any mods there? I'm using an Athlon 64
> 3700+ San Diego (socket 939) which has pretty good voltage/speed
> stepping, although I'd love to be able to drop the lowest step even
> more. If anyone knows a mod for that I'd love to know! The kernel
> module seems to read the stepping info direct from the cpu or bios,
> and I haven't found a way to manipulate this manually, although
> googling suggests that a further 10% cut in voltage should be
> possible.

How slow are you trying to go?

I have an Athlon64 3500+ Winchester. By default, the cpufreq-ondemand
governor only lets it go from 2.2GHz down to 1.8GHz. I had to tweak it
manually to drop it down to 1.0GHz (nothing available in between):

# cpufreq-set --min 100 --governor ondemand

[This is software only; no mucking around with voltage on the
motherboard.]

--Rob


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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Michael Starks]

> The power savings are so small as to not be meaningull in a desktop.
> I'm sure the unstated goal here is heat and fan noise reduction.

Actually, I don't care too much about heat and noise since the server is 
in the basement.  I truly am interested in energy conservation but at 
the same time having a server powerful enough for multiple tasks (Myth, 
Mister House, Asterisk, security cams, etc).
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[John Andersen]

On 1/24/06, Steve Adeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tuesday 24 January 2006 13:22, Tom Dombrosky wrote:
> > On 1/24/06, Steve Adeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 24 January 2006 12:34, Michael Starks wrote:
> > > > I have been thinking of using a laptop CPU to save power on a new
> > > > MythTV system.  Basically, I'd like to be able to use the cpuspeed
> > > > daemon to drop the CPU speed when there isn't a lot going in.  Has
> > > > anyone done with with a full-size mainboard?  Any other tips?
> > >
> > > laptop CPU's use different sockets, etc. I believe some of the new mini
> > > boards
> > > (BTX or something?) use laptop cpu's. I also believe desktop cpu's
> > > support the cpu speed daemons.
> >
> > The Athlon laptop cpus use the same socket.  They will work fine.
> >
> > Tom
>
> interesting, are the power savings of a mobile CPU that great over the desktop
> version? What are the tradeoffs of going this route?

The power savings are so small as to not be meaningull in a desktop.
I'm sure the unstated goal here is heat and fan noise reduction.

--
--JSA-
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Marius Schrecker]

> Tom Dombrosky wrote:
>
>>
>> On 1/24/06, *Steve Adeff* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
>> wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday 24 January 2006 12:34, Michael Starks wrote:
>> > I have been thinking of using a laptop CPU to save power on a
>> new MythTV
>> > system.  Basically, I'd like to be able to use the cpuspeed
>> daemon to
>> > drop the CPU speed when there isn't a lot going in.  Has anyone
>> done
>> > with with a full-size mainboard?  Any other tips?
>>
>> laptop CPU's use different sockets, etc. I believe some of the new
>> mini boards
>> (BTX or something?) use laptop cpu's. I also believe desktop cpu's
>> support
>> the cpu speed daemons.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Athlon laptop cpus use the same socket.  They will work fine.
>
> A  really minor modificatio can turn a normal Athlon XP into a mobile
> athlon too - which enables you to use the athcool stuff under linux.
> It's pretty straight forward and there's plenty of stuff on doing it out
> there.
>

What about the 64 family, any mods there?
I'm using an Athlon 64 3700+ San Diego (socket 939) which has pretty good
voltage/speed stepping, although I'd love to be able to drop the lowest
step even more. If anyone knows a mod for that I'd love to know! The
kernel module seems to read the stepping info direct from the cpu or bios,
and I haven't found a way to manipulate this manually, although googling
suggests that a further 10% cut in voltage should be possible.

Marius
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Steve Adeff]

On Tuesday 24 January 2006 13:22, Tom Dombrosky wrote:
> On 1/24/06, Steve Adeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 24 January 2006 12:34, Michael Starks wrote:
> > > I have been thinking of using a laptop CPU to save power on a new
> > > MythTV system.  Basically, I'd like to be able to use the cpuspeed
> > > daemon to drop the CPU speed when there isn't a lot going in.  Has
> > > anyone done with with a full-size mainboard?  Any other tips?
> >
> > laptop CPU's use different sockets, etc. I believe some of the new mini
> > boards
> > (BTX or something?) use laptop cpu's. I also believe desktop cpu's
> > support the cpu speed daemons.
>
> The Athlon laptop cpus use the same socket.  They will work fine.
>
> Tom

interesting, are the power savings of a mobile CPU that great over the desktop 
version? What are the tradeoffs of going this route?

-- 
Steve
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Dan Seddon]

Tom Dombrosky wrote:

>
> On 1/24/06, *Steve Adeff* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 
> wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 24 January 2006 12:34, Michael Starks wrote:
> > I have been thinking of using a laptop CPU to save power on a
> new MythTV
> > system.  Basically, I'd like to be able to use the cpuspeed
> daemon to
> > drop the CPU speed when there isn't a lot going in.  Has anyone
> done
> > with with a full-size mainboard?  Any other tips?
>
> laptop CPU's use different sockets, etc. I believe some of the new
> mini boards
> (BTX or something?) use laptop cpu's. I also believe desktop cpu's
> support
> the cpu speed daemons.
>
>
>
> The Athlon laptop cpus use the same socket.  They will work fine.

A  really minor modificatio can turn a normal Athlon XP into a mobile 
athlon too - which enables you to use the athcool stuff under linux. 
It's pretty straight forward and there's plenty of stuff on doing it out 
there.

Dan
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Tom Dombrosky]

On 1/24/06, Steve Adeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Tuesday 24 January 2006 12:34, Michael Starks wrote:> I have been thinking of using a laptop CPU to save power on a new MythTV> system.  Basically, I'd like to be able to use the cpuspeed daemon to> drop the CPU speed when there isn't a lot going in.  Has anyone done
> with with a full-size mainboard?  Any other tips?laptop CPU's use different sockets, etc. I believe some of the new mini boards(BTX or something?) use laptop cpu's. I also believe desktop cpu's support
the cpu speed daemons.The Athlon laptop cpus use the same socket.  They will work fine.Tom
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[shadestalker]

On 1/24/06, Michael Starks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have been thinking of using a laptop CPU to save power on a new MythTVsystem.  Basically, I'd like to be able to use the cpuspeed daemon todrop the CPU speed when there isn't a lot going in.  Has anyone done
with with a full-size mainboard?  Any other tips?According to the docs at http://carlthompson.net/Software/CPUSpeed you don't need to do anything special for it to just work.
A quick check shows availability of Pentium M desktop boards, but I don't see any for Turion.
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Byron Poland]

On 1/24/06, Steve Adeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tuesday 24 January 2006 12:34, Michael Starks wrote:
> > I have been thinking of using a laptop CPU to save power on a new MythTV
> > system.  Basically, I'd like to be able to use the cpuspeed daemon to
> > drop the CPU speed when there isn't a lot going in.  Has anyone done
> > with with a full-size mainboard?  Any other tips?
>
> laptop CPU's use different sockets, etc. I believe some of the new mini boards
> (BTX or something?) use laptop cpu's. I also believe desktop cpu's support
> the cpu speed daemons.
>
> --
> Steve
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I built a desktop that had a socket A in it, and bought an XP-Mobile
chip for it.  It works, however, the bios on the Motherboard doesn't
recognized the chip specifically so lots of the speed scaling and
power saving features aren't enabled.  The chip is lower wattage so it
does save some power that way, but I don't have any configuration
power over it.  I think I have a Biostar microatx board with an nvidia
chipset and onboard video.  I can't give specifics as I'm away from
home for work for the next few months, so can't check the actual model
numbers etc.
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Re: [mythtv-users] Laptop CPU in Desktop Mainboard

[Steve Adeff]

On Tuesday 24 January 2006 12:34, Michael Starks wrote:
> I have been thinking of using a laptop CPU to save power on a new MythTV
> system.  Basically, I'd like to be able to use the cpuspeed daemon to
> drop the CPU speed when there isn't a lot going in.  Has anyone done
> with with a full-size mainboard?  Any other tips?

laptop CPU's use different sockets, etc. I believe some of the new mini boards 
(BTX or something?) use laptop cpu's. I also believe desktop cpu's support 
the cpu speed daemons.

-- 
Steve
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