Re: subtitles Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
On Thursday 24 February 2005 20:00, Max Waterman wrote: > > Hrm. Even though I had 'digital cable' when I recorded the shows, I > think many of the channels were actually still transmitted in analogue > - mostly those below channel 100, IIRC. Yep; many cable companies do this -- channels < 125 or so are analog. > The main exception for me is the > reason I signed up for digital - BBC America - which, I am fairly > sure, > was transmitted as digital. In any case, my ReplayTV only had RCA > phono > connections to the cable box (using a IR channel changer to control > it) > so even the digital channels will be recorded as if there were > analogue. Right. > So, if the subtitles (or closed captions, or whatever they call it in > the US) are embedded in the mpeg stream, then I will have likely lost > them in translation, so to speak - *unless* they re-encode them into > the > video signal (which I assume is what you mean by VBI). Yep. VBI == Video Blank Interval > I assume the ones recorded from the analogue channels will have also > recorded the video lines with the subtitles in? Not necessarily. AFAIK only Myth has the ability to record VBI data and convert it to subtitles for display afterwards. I doubt ReplayTV or Tivo can do this. (NB- Myth only supports this currently for analog framegrabber (bttv) cards), though support the VBI interface on ivtv cards is maturing, so Myth may support them at some point, too. -JAC ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: subtitles Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
Joseph A. Caputo wrote: On Thursday 24 February 2005 0:50, Max Waterman wrote: Joseph A. Caputo wrote: I don't want to come off as insensitive here, but... how about someone who was hearing impaired, and couldn't time shift programs from digital cable because they lose the subtitles embedded in the MPEG stream if they convert it to analog. My mpeg streams have subtitles embedded? That would be awesome, if true. How can I play them? My mpegs are from a ReplayTV...will they still have subtitles? Well, MPEGs *can* have subtitle information embedded, AFAIK. Whether or not a particular content producer embeds them is another story. Right now I don't think Myth supports MPEG subtitles, but the point is the information *should* be there and accessible by standard consumer devices**... perhaps someone familiar with the Americans with Disabilities Act could shed some light. -JAC **by 'standard' devices I mean that the information needs to be accessible in a standard way, such that someone could manufacture a single device capable of reading it, regardless of who your cable provider is. Right now, with analog television/cable, that standard is to transmit the information on a certain lines of the VBI. The sensible standard for digital television would be to embed the information in the MPEG stream, which would required unencrypted access to the digital data to decode the subtitles. Hrm. Even though I had 'digital cable' when I recorded the shows, I think many of the channels were actually still transmitted in analogue - mostly those below channel 100, IIRC. The main exception for me is the reason I signed up for digital - BBC America - which, I am fairly sure, was transmitted as digital. In any case, my ReplayTV only had RCA phono connections to the cable box (using a IR channel changer to control it) so even the digital channels will be recorded as if there were analogue. So, if the subtitles (or closed captions, or whatever they call it in the US) are embedded in the mpeg stream, then I will have likely lost them in translation, so to speak - *unless* they re-encode them into the video signal (which I assume is what you mean by VBI). I assume the ones recorded from the analogue channels will have also recorded the video lines with the subtitles in? I wonder if channels recorded in the UK will have the CEEFAX info in them too - is CEEFAX still available in the UK (it's been a while since I lived there)? Max. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005, Wendy Seltzer wrote: So long as the judges find we have standing as consumer advocacy groups and library associations to challenge the flag rule, yes. From the reports I've heard, they seemed skeptical of FCC's arguments. If there was a search to find people more "directly" affected (what a farce, if that were true)... has anyone spoken with the pcHDTV people? I'm assuming they would meet any standard and be eager to participate. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: subtitles Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
On Thursday 24 February 2005 0:50, Max Waterman wrote: > Joseph A. Caputo wrote: > > > > I don't want to come off as insensitive here, but... how about > > someone > > who was hearing impaired, and couldn't time shift programs from > > digital > > cable because they lose the subtitles embedded in the MPEG stream if > > they convert it to analog. > > My mpeg streams have subtitles embedded? That would be awesome, if > true. > How can I play them? > > My mpegs are from a ReplayTV...will they still have subtitles? Well, MPEGs *can* have subtitle information embedded, AFAIK. Whether or not a particular content producer embeds them is another story. Right now I don't think Myth supports MPEG subtitles, but the point is the information *should* be there and accessible by standard consumer devices**... perhaps someone familiar with the Americans with Disabilities Act could shed some light. -JAC **by 'standard' devices I mean that the information needs to be accessible in a standard way, such that someone could manufacture a single device capable of reading it, regardless of who your cable provider is. Right now, with analog television/cable, that standard is to transmit the information on a certain lines of the VBI. The sensible standard for digital television would be to embed the information in the MPEG stream, which would required unencrypted access to the digital data to decode the subtitles. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
subtitles Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
Joseph A. Caputo wrote: I don't want to come off as insensitive here, but... how about someone who was hearing impaired, and couldn't time shift programs from digital cable because they lose the subtitles embedded in the MPEG stream if they convert it to analog. My mpeg streams have subtitles embedded? That would be awesome, if true. How can I play them? My mpegs are from a ReplayTV...will they still have subtitles? Max. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
On Wed, Feb 23, 2005 at 09:44:27AM -0500, Anthony Vito wrote: > This one always gets me a good laugh. A little known fact ( Probably > more widely known to people on this list. ) is that the great majority > ( maybe 99% for large video media files ) of all content on so-called > "peer2peer" sites is scene content. Meaning it was prepared by a > specific underground group, sent off to the top sites, and made it's > way down from there, getting repackaged along the way. ( People don't > like rar archives or something. ) Recently, with the advent of > bittorrent, many users got a peek into this world, and got to download > original scene content. The point here is that the broadcast flag will > have no affect at all on large video media internet trading. In fact > ,I would argue that it would make the statistical probability you > would get a well done encoding much higher, because all the content > that's there will be from the scene. Rather then being encoded by your > 12 year old cousin haxor using vidomi. Largely true. The BF will mostly interfere with ordinary consumers trying to use their equipment. But the real thing they want it to do is let them control equipment vendors. Now you can't build digital TV equipment without coming to them and getting approval and their magic keys. This stops upstart innovators and open source developers from undermining the main companies. And outside the P2P world, which is still not everybody, it stops a company from selling a DVD burner with a DTV tuner in it which records shows onto DVDs or new hi-def DVD. Doesn't stop me from building one but it stops a company from selling one which is the real way consumers would get their hands on them. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
-- quote from article -- Under the FCC rule, programmers can attach a code, or flag, to digital broadcasts that would, in most cases, bar consumers from sending unauthorized copies of popular shows over the Web. -- end quote -- This one always gets me a good laugh. A little known fact ( Probably more widely known to people on this list. ) is that the great majority ( maybe 99% for large video media files ) of all content on so-called "peer2peer" sites is scene content. Meaning it was prepared by a specific underground group, sent off to the top sites, and made it's way down from there, getting repackaged along the way. ( People don't like rar archives or something. ) Recently, with the advent of bittorrent, many users got a peek into this world, and got to download original scene content. The point here is that the broadcast flag will have no affect at all on large video media internet trading. In fact ,I would argue that it would make the statistical probability you would get a well done encoding much higher, because all the content that's there will be from the scene. Rather then being encoded by your 12 year old cousin haxor using vidomi. -- Anthony Vito [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
On Wednesday 23 February 2005 8:47, Donavan Stanley wrote: > On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:22:53 -0800, Wendy Seltzer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So long as the judges find we have standing as consumer advocacy > > groups and library associations to challenge the flag rule, yes. > > From the reports I've heard, they seemed skeptical of FCC's arguments. > > I imagine having open source developers sign on as plantifs wouldn't > count either? I don't want to come off as insensitive here, but... how about someone who was hearing impaired, and couldn't time shift programs from digital cable because they lose the subtitles embedded in the MPEG stream if they convert it to analog. -JAC ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:22:53 -0800, Wendy Seltzer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So long as the judges find we have standing as consumer advocacy > groups and library associations to challenge the flag rule, yes. > From the reports I've heard, they seemed skeptical of FCC's arguments. I imagine having open source developers sign on as plantifs wouldn't count either? ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
Standing is such a bugaboo, and what I've been most worried since this campaign started. Was the brief prepared for questions of standing? The article left unsaid anything about the oral argument for standing. IANAL, but I'm interested in law, and at one point seriously considered law school. -Jonathan On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:22:53 -0800, Wendy Seltzer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 8:58 PM -0500 2/22/05, Mark wrote: > >Jarod Wilson wrote: > > > >>Some good news, of some relevance to MythTV users: > >> > >>http://finance.myway.com/ht/nw/bus/20050222/hlm_bus-n22530838.html > >> > >> > >Wow! Is this what I think it is? the first step to striking down > >the broadcast flag? > > So long as the judges find we have standing as consumer advocacy > groups and library associations to challenge the flag rule, yes. > From the reports I've heard, they seemed skeptical of FCC's arguments. > > --Wendy > -- > -- > Wendy Seltzer -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] || [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Electronic Frontier Foundation > Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard Law School > http://wendy.seltzer.org/mythtv/ > > > ___ > mythtv-users mailing list > mythtv-users@mythtv.org > http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users > > > ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
At 8:58 PM -0500 2/22/05, Mark wrote: Jarod Wilson wrote: Some good news, of some relevance to MythTV users: http://finance.myway.com/ht/nw/bus/20050222/hlm_bus-n22530838.html Wow! Is this what I think it is? the first step to striking down the broadcast flag? So long as the judges find we have standing as consumer advocacy groups and library associations to challenge the flag rule, yes. From the reports I've heard, they seemed skeptical of FCC's arguments. --Wendy -- -- Wendy Seltzer -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] || [EMAIL PROTECTED] Electronic Frontier Foundation Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard Law School http://wendy.seltzer.org/mythtv/ ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
>
> http://finance.myway.com/ht/nw/bus/20050222/hlm_bus-n22530838.html
>
I wanted to go see the arguments in person this morning, but other
things came up. I could see the court completely sidestepping the
real issue of importance to us by saying the Plaintiffs lacked
standing (unable to show a particularized harm that is not shared by
the general public ("You have to have a harm that distinguishes you
from the public at large," Sentelle said during oral arguments. "If
there is not a particularized harm, you do not have standing...There
may be someone from the industry who can come forward."))
It would be great if Hauppague or one of the other card manufactures
sued, because the other question, including the ones in that article,
indicate that they rightly beleive the FCC acted improperly without a
mandate from Congress. I would expect that issue to be very ripe for
a Supreme Court either way it comes, assuming they get there and don't
stop at the standing issue. It will be interesting to see if the flag
proponents could get legislation quickly passed if the flag is
overruled on these grounds.
Either way, hats off to Brad Templeton, Wendy Seltzer and others on
this list and off for their work on fighting the flag. Hopefully, if
standing is the losing issue, some of the manufactures could step in.
I believe even Issac or this community would be able to show a
particularlized harm by virtue of it impeding a major myth feature (HD
Recording).
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Re: [mythtv-users] Reuters: FCC Overstepped Authority on Digital TV
Jarod Wilson wrote: Some good news, of some relevance to MythTV users: http://finance.myway.com/ht/nw/bus/20050222/hlm_bus-n22530838.html Wow! Is this what I think it is? the first step to striking down the broadcast flag? ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
