Re: [mythtv-users] Seattle Comcast firewire not working as of today -- 5C?
On Tuesday 25 October 2005 18:08, Michael T. Dean wrote: > Steve Adeff wrote: > >On Tuesday 25 October 2005 16:30, Andy Alsup wrote: > >>So, I'm no lawyer, but I think this means that requiring 5C compliant > >>devices in order to record content that isn't protected is not > >>allowed. > > > >true. but the question is, what is considered "protected". We know OTA is > >required to be openly available, but it sounds like anything you have to > > pay for is considered protected under the law, meaning they can 5C > > protect the rest of the channels. > > Do we know this applies to both *digital* and *analog* OTA? I've never > seen any official statement that anything other than *analog*-only basic > cable tier service must be provided unencrypted. > > I know that EFF and other organizations have made a lot of comments to > FCC about this issue, but all I've seen are comments, like: > > - "III. DIGITAL OVER-THE-AIR BROADCASTS MUST REMAIN UNENCRYPTED WHEN > RETRANSMITTED OVER CABLE" (Mar 28, 2003) at > http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/HDTV/20030328_fcc_cable-ce_comments.pdf > - "III. TREATMENT OF OTA BROADCASTS ON BASIC TIER CABLE" (Feb 13, > 2004) at http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/HDTV/fnprm_comments.php > - "II. THE COMMISSION SHOULD RETAIN ITS RULE PROHIBITING ENCRYPTION > OF RE-TRANSMITTED BROADCAST TELEVISION ON CABLE" (Mar 15, 2004) at > http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/HDTV/?f=eff_fnprm_reply.html > > So, does anyone have a link to any official > ruling/statement/interpretation/whatever... (I'm not looking for a > yes/no answer. I'm hoping for a reference.) > > Thanks, > Mike well, it all depends really. as an electrical engineer I see all broadcasts into the air as analog, digital just sits on an alternating wave. as a cable company owner I see all broadcasts in the form that makes me the most money, ie digital. So, while the FCC does only state that OTA *analog* broadcasts must remain unencrypted, the interpretation is up to the person with the most power. I have a feeling though that cable companies won't bother encrypting the OTA stuff because it doesn't really matter. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Seattle Comcast firewire not working as of today -- 5C?
Steve Adeff wrote: On Tuesday 25 October 2005 16:30, Andy Alsup wrote: So, I'm no lawyer, but I think this means that requiring 5C compliant devices in order to record content that isn't protected is not allowed. true. but the question is, what is considered "protected". We know OTA is required to be openly available, but it sounds like anything you have to pay for is considered protected under the law, meaning they can 5C protect the rest of the channels. Do we know this applies to both *digital* and *analog* OTA? I've never seen any official statement that anything other than *analog*-only basic cable tier service must be provided unencrypted. I know that EFF and other organizations have made a lot of comments to FCC about this issue, but all I've seen are comments, like: - "III. DIGITAL OVER-THE-AIR BROADCASTS MUST REMAIN UNENCRYPTED WHEN RETRANSMITTED OVER CABLE" (Mar 28, 2003) at http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/HDTV/20030328_fcc_cable-ce_comments.pdf - "III. TREATMENT OF OTA BROADCASTS ON BASIC TIER CABLE" (Feb 13, 2004) at http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/HDTV/fnprm_comments.php - "II. THE COMMISSION SHOULD RETAIN ITS RULE PROHIBITING ENCRYPTION OF RE-TRANSMITTED BROADCAST TELEVISION ON CABLE" (Mar 15, 2004) at http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/HDTV/?f=eff_fnprm_reply.html So, does anyone have a link to any official ruling/statement/interpretation/whatever... (I'm not looking for a yes/no answer. I'm hoping for a reference.) Thanks, Mike ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Seattle Comcast firewire not working as of today -- 5C?
On Tuesday 25 October 2005 17:01, Brian C. Huffman wrote: > On Tue, 2005-10-25 at 13:30 -0700, Andy Alsup wrote: > > Correct, none of the digital channels work, including the locals. The > > locals is an obvious problem, but I think even some or most of the > > digital chanels should be open too. I think what we really need is > > full disclosure of what will be protected, and what won't. My best > > leverage may be that I can say, well, it worked up until now. If it > > had never worked, I would have a hard time getting past the first > > layer I think. > > [snip] > > > (ii) To prevent or limit copying, other than first generation of > > copies, of pay television transmissions, non-premium subscription > > television, and free conditional access delivery transmissions; and > > Here's the problem. This says you can only make one copy of "pay > television transmissions, non-premium subscription television, and free > conditional access delivery transmissions." > > Well - the only way they can currently guarantee that you can't make > more than one copy is to ensure that you can't make *any* copies... > > Thus enter the broadcast flag. :-( > > Correct me if I'm wrong by someone interpretting this differently...but > this seems like a logical loophole for them. > > -b actually what it does is allow for the 5C protocol. 5C has three levels: copy unlimitied, copy once, copy never. actually, it might have a fourth, but these were the only three I can remember. 5C=0 unlimited, these are the channels that one can get over firewire without having a 5C capable device (ie our linux machine). the rest of the numbers I might have wrong, but the jist is correct: 5C=1 copy once. the device at the other end must be 5C in order for the cable box to send the signal, it is the only way to ensure the copy once flag is adhered to. 5C=2 copy never. like =1 but no ability to copy it, basically for tv out only. there might be a third level, but i can't remember it at the time. the jist is, if 5C!=0 don't expect linux to see it until its A. hacked, B. a 5C compliant firewire card is made and linux drivers are produced. Steve ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Seattle Comcast firewire not working as of today -- 5C?
On Tuesday 25 October 2005 16:30, Andy Alsup wrote: > Correct, none of the digital channels work, including the locals. The > locals is an obvious problem, but I think even some or most of the > digital chanels should be open too. I think what we really need is > full disclosure of what will be protected, and what won't. My best > leverage may be that I can say, well, it worked up until now. If it > had never worked, I would have a hard time getting past the first > layer I think. > > As I read the FCC rules, it doesn't seem to say anything about 5C > being required, only that content protection is supposed to be limited > to certain content types: > > The "LEGAL document" containing these rules is Code of Federal > Regulations Title 47, Chapter I, Subchapter C, Part 76, specifically > §76.1904, paragraph (b)(1): > > (1) Commercial audiovisual content shall not be encoded so as to > prevent or limit copying thereof except as follows: > > (i) To prevent or limit copying of video-on-demand or pay-per-view > transmissions, subject to the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this > section; and ok, so they're allowed to use 5C on Video-on-Demand and PPV. I can live with that. > > (ii) To prevent or limit copying, other than first generation of > copies, of pay television transmissions, non-premium subscription > television, and free conditional access delivery transmissions; and here it seems like they are allowed to prevent anything futher than single copying of any other channel they provide that one pays for. what confuses me is the non-premium and free conditional access delivery parts. > (2) With respect to any commercial audiovisual content delivered or > transmitted in form of a video-on-demand or pay-per-view transmission, > a covered entity shall not encode such content so as to prevent a > covered product, without further authorization, from pausing such > content up to 90 minutes from initial transmission by the covered > entity (e.g., frame-by-frame, minute-by-minute, megabyte by megabyte). this just basically says they can't prevent a proper 5C device from doing time shifting within a 90minute window. > So, I'm no lawyer, but I think this means that requiring 5C compliant > devices in order to record content that isn't protected is not > allowed. true. but the question is, what is considered "protected". We know OTA is required to be openly available, but it sounds like anything you have to pay for is considered protected under the law, meaning they can 5C protect the rest of the channels. Steve ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Seattle Comcast firewire not working as of today -- 5C?
On Tue, 2005-10-25 at 13:30 -0700, Andy Alsup wrote: > Correct, none of the digital channels work, including the locals. The > locals is an obvious problem, but I think even some or most of the > digital chanels should be open too. I think what we really need is > full disclosure of what will be protected, and what won't. My best > leverage may be that I can say, well, it worked up until now. If it > had never worked, I would have a hard time getting past the first > layer I think. > [snip] > > (ii) To prevent or limit copying, other than first generation of > copies, of pay television transmissions, non-premium subscription > television, and free conditional access delivery transmissions; and > Here's the problem. This says you can only make one copy of "pay television transmissions, non-premium subscription television, and free conditional access delivery transmissions." Well - the only way they can currently guarantee that you can't make more than one copy is to ensure that you can't make *any* copies... Thus enter the broadcast flag. :-( Correct me if I'm wrong by someone interpretting this differently...but this seems like a logical loophole for them. -b ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Seattle Comcast firewire not working as of today -- 5C?
Correct, none of the digital channels work, including the locals. The locals is an obvious problem, but I think even some or most of the digital chanels should be open too. I think what we really need is full disclosure of what will be protected, and what won't. My best leverage may be that I can say, well, it worked up until now. If it had never worked, I would have a hard time getting past the first layer I think. As I read the FCC rules, it doesn't seem to say anything about 5C being required, only that content protection is supposed to be limited to certain content types: The "LEGAL document" containing these rules is Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, Chapter I, Subchapter C, Part 76, specifically §76.1904, paragraph (b)(1): (1) Commercial audiovisual content shall not be encoded so as to prevent or limit copying thereof except as follows: (i) To prevent or limit copying of video-on-demand or pay-per-view transmissions, subject to the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section; and (ii) To prevent or limit copying, other than first generation of copies, of pay television transmissions, non-premium subscription television, and free conditional access delivery transmissions; and (2) With respect to any commercial audiovisual content delivered or transmitted in form of a video-on-demand or pay-per-view transmission, a covered entity shall not encode such content so as to prevent a covered product, without further authorization, from pausing such content up to 90 minutes from initial transmission by the covered entity (e.g., frame-by-frame, minute-by-minute, megabyte by megabyte). So, I'm no lawyer, but I think this means that requiring 5C compliant devices in order to record content that isn't protected is not allowed. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Seattle Comcast firewire not working as of today -- 5C?
On Tuesday 25 October 2005 16:05, Andy Alsup wrote: > I talked to on CSR at Comcast, who said yes they do support Firewire, > and it should be working. After I explained the problem she said we > wouldn't turn on Copy Protection, so it must be a Motorola problem. > She told me to call Motorola... So, I jumped through the hoop and > called Motorola just so I could say I've been down that road if asked > again. Of course Mot CSR says they don't do anything with the copy > protection, and its a Comcast problem. I tell him I know, but I need > more info to give Comcast because the CSRs don't know what system I'm > talking about. He couldn't give me any more data, only that (in his > opinion) it is a firmware option that Comcast controls. > > So I call Comcast back and eventually get transfered to a CSR guy who > at first told me that firewire was not supposed to work, but after I > insisted, he looked it up on their knowledge base and confirmed that > it IS supposed to work on the 6200. Nice that they actually have that > fact documented somewhere. > > Still, the CSR group doesn't have any contacts in engineering, and as > far as he knew, no way to escalate to the guys who run the headend. > He opened a ticket for me with Engineering and Construction group, so > I don't know what that is, but it sounds like guys who dig ditches and > run cable, not control software. Still, he was very helpful which was > nice. > > I'll see what comes from this open ticket. I may have a trench > digging truck show up in my yard as a result. > > The City of Seattle has a Cable Consumers hotline that says they will > help follow through on issues for consumers. I will call them and > give this much info and see if they can help get the data to the right > person. > > I knew this day was coming, so I may have to accept the fact that I'll > get no more movies in HD. As far as I can tell though, the 5C > implementation is only supposed to cover very narrow content types > like PPV, and certainly not block the local HD channels. > > At very least, I am going to push for a published list of channels and > content types that Comcast agrees are supposed to be available on > firewire without content protection turned on. If there is a > documented list, at least we have some way of knowing if they are > being compliant with the FCC rules. > > Does anyone else in Seattle have personal experience to share? Jarod, > aren't you using firewire on one of your boxes? So your getting 5C'd out of your local stations? I can understand why my local Comcast 5C's the digital channels and pay-for channels( I hate it, but what can i do?), but the FCC could slap them around for 5C'ing OTA stations. Maybe call and ask to speak to one of their operations managers or engineers? Steve ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Seattle Comcast firewire not working as of today -- 5C?
I talked to on CSR at Comcast, who said yes they do support Firewire, and it should be working. After I explained the problem she said we wouldn't turn on Copy Protection, so it must be a Motorola problem. She told me to call Motorola... So, I jumped through the hoop and called Motorola just so I could say I've been down that road if asked again. Of course Mot CSR says they don't do anything with the copy protection, and its a Comcast problem. I tell him I know, but I need more info to give Comcast because the CSRs don't know what system I'm talking about. He couldn't give me any more data, only that (in his opinion) it is a firmware option that Comcast controls. So I call Comcast back and eventually get transfered to a CSR guy who at first told me that firewire was not supposed to work, but after I insisted, he looked it up on their knowledge base and confirmed that it IS supposed to work on the 6200. Nice that they actually have that fact documented somewhere. Still, the CSR group doesn't have any contacts in engineering, and as far as he knew, no way to escalate to the guys who run the headend. He opened a ticket for me with Engineering and Construction group, so I don't know what that is, but it sounds like guys who dig ditches and run cable, not control software. Still, he was very helpful which was nice. I'll see what comes from this open ticket. I may have a trench digging truck show up in my yard as a result. The City of Seattle has a Cable Consumers hotline that says they will help follow through on issues for consumers. I will call them and give this much info and see if they can help get the data to the right person. I knew this day was coming, so I may have to accept the fact that I'll get no more movies in HD. As far as I can tell though, the 5C implementation is only supposed to cover very narrow content types like PPV, and certainly not block the local HD channels. At very least, I am going to push for a published list of channels and content types that Comcast agrees are supposed to be available on firewire without content protection turned on. If there is a documented list, at least we have some way of knowing if they are being compliant with the FCC rules. Does anyone else in Seattle have personal experience to share? Jarod, aren't you using firewire on one of your boxes? ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Seattle Comcast firewire not working as of today -- 5C?
On Tuesday 25 October 2005 01:32, Andy Alsup wrote: > I have been using Comcast DCT-6200 w/ firewire since April sometime. > I got all channels including premium, no problems. > > Starting today, I am only able to capture analog channels, and > occasionally local HD. I had Monday Night Football set to record, and > that failed. > > I am wondering if they have thrown the big 5C switch. Anyone else > that HAD firewire working in the Comcast Seattle market, but now its > not? > > In the advanced menu (power button, then ok/menu button) under the > Interface Status section, there is a field: 5C implementation. So > far, for channels that I can record, that field is 0, for channels > where recoding now fails it is 1. > > Anyone else see this? > > I haven't called Comcast yet to complain. I will do that tomorrow, > but something tells me that won't get me anywhere. I have comcast in Boston and this is how I've got things as well, only the OTA and analog cable channels. nice thing though is the box will convert to 480p for those channels which makes things easier. Steve ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Seattle Comcast firewire not working as of today -- 5C?
> > I haven't called Comcast yet to complain. I will do that tomorrow, > but something tells me that won't get me anywhere. > I'd be interested in finding out how this is goes. I've been wanting to get into HDTV but am reluctant to spend money on hardware that I can't ever use (except for local) -- _\ | /_ (@ @) -oOOo-(_)-oOOo- ~ Mark Gardner ~ ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
