Authority
hello, i've been reading nanog-l/inet-access for many many years (just a shadow, i don't post). i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (or anyone else)? or is yours a rogue vigilante mission? does anyone ask you to undertake the battles you feel justified in engaging in? this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you're very self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i withold judgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to say the things you say about others. /blaxthos
Re: Authority
Blaxthos wrote: hello, i've been reading nanog-l/inet-access for many many years (just a shadow, i don't post). i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (or anyone else)? or is yours a rogue vigilante mission? does anyone ask you to undertake the battles you feel justified in engaging in? this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you're very self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i withold judgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to say the things you say about others. Lord, save us from flamebait.
Re: Authority
- Original Message - From: Blaxthos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 3:00 PM Subject: Authority hello, i've been reading nanog-l/inet-access for many many years (just a shadow, i don't post). i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (or anyone else)? or is yours a rogue vigilante mission? does anyone ask you to undertake the battles you feel justified in engaging in? this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you're very self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i withold judgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to say the things you say about others. /blaxthos In the north-american country I happen to live in, you do not need 'authority' to express your opinions. If your country is different, I offer my condolences. Paul
Re: Authority
bash.org... bash.org... now where have I seen that... AAH YES! So then a group dedicated solely to efforts at documenting trolling on IRC should be given credibility as to what is/isn't said on NANOG? Yes there are members of ICANN, ARIN, and most tier-1 peers on here. You might even see bash.org stick it's neck out and get it chopped off from time to time. And now back to things that are less fattening on my killfile. - Original Message - From: Blaxthos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 3:00 PM Subject: Authority hello, i've been reading nanog-l/inet-access for many many years (just a shadow, i don't post). i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (or anyone else)? or is yours a rogue vigilante mission? does anyone ask you to undertake the battles you feel justified in engaging in? this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you're very self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i withold judgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to say the things you say about others. /blaxthos In the north-american country I happen to live in, you do not need 'authority' to express your opinions. If your country is different, I offer my condolences. Paul -- Andrew D Kirch | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| Security Admin | Summit Open Source Development Group | www.sosdg.org GPG: 6EBD 5C98 958D 8F6B 5F66 007B 0CE1 A369 604C key at http://www.sosdg.org/keys/trelane.key
Re: Authority
[ sorry to use your msg as a soapbox ] let us not feed the trolls, they do not understand and just puke it up. procmail is your friend. randy, who did not realize that school vacations began this early
Re: Authority
Blaxthos wrote: hello, i've been reading nanog-l/inet-access for many many years (just a shadow, i don't post). i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (or anyone else)? or is yours a rogue vigilante mission? does anyone ask you to undertake the battles you feel justified in engaging in? this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you're very self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i withold judgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to say the things you say about others. /blaxthos We may not have authority but we do have enable/root. Some roots are bigger than others. SO get your own and then come complain. Bye Troll.
Re: Authority
May I add that a lot of NANOG people actually use IRC for many reasons. You would be suprised to learn how many of the people posting to NANOG chat on a daily basis in a certain #nanog channel. Would you be pissed to know that I'm an IRCer and I also own NANOG.NET ? ohh and also, #nanog has members of tier-1 peers on there. He's just asking a simple question and I think it would be interesting to know his answer. If our countries (I'm canadian) are so free, I should and we should all be allowed to say whatever we want, whenever we want which includes that blaxthos guy. the nanog-l is not WILLIAM LEIBZON's personnal hatered list. If he wants people to read on his stuff, he can just start his own list. -chris On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: bash.org... bash.org... now where have I seen that... AAH YES! So then a group dedicated solely to efforts at documenting trolling on IRC should be given credibility as to what is/isn't said on NANOG? Yes there are members of ICANN, ARIN, and most tier-1 peers on here. You might even see bash.org stick it's neck out and get it chopped off from time to time. And now back to things that are less fattening on my killfile. - Original Message - From: Blaxthos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 3:00 PM Subject: Authority hello, i've been reading nanog-l/inet-access for many many years (just a shadow, i don't post). i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (or anyone else)? or is yours a rogue vigilante mission? does anyone ask you to undertake the battles you feel justified in engaging in? this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you're very self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i withold judgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to say the things you say about others. /blaxthos In the north-american country I happen to live in, you do not need 'authority' to express your opinions. If your country is different, I offer my condolences. Paul -- Andrew D Kirch | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| Security Admin | Summit Open Source Development Group | www.sosdg.org GPG: 6EBD 5C98 958D 8F6B 5F66 007B 0CE1 A369 604C key at http://www.sosdg.org/keys/trelane.key
Re: Authority
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Randy Bush wrote: [ sorry to use your msg as a soapbox ] I appreciate the apology. I think my point is being missed, however (and hopefully this reply will help legitimize the situation). It should be noted that the original post was directed to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not to nanog-l (the list was only cc'd). I take issue with anyone who publically accuses another entity of wrongdoing beyond his scope of authority. If people are speeding in my neighborhood, I can not go and take down their pictures, personal information, license plate numbers, etc., post them publically, and accuse them of breaking the law (even if they did!). That's liabel, and it is illegal (and wrong). It is no less wrong just because it is up to the victim of the post to take corrective/punative action in a civil forum (ie lawsuit). The correct action would be to lobby the authorities (police in the example, arin in this situation) to take enforcement measures, NOT to demand that the criminals justify their actions to you (specifically speaking to whom my email was originally addressed). There are fiscal and legal ramifications to what is being done here. Hope this helps clarify. /blaxthos
Re: Authority
On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 14:34, Christian Malo wrote: the nanog-l is not WILLIAM LEIBZON's personnal hatered list. If he wants people to read on his stuff, he can just start his own list. Actually, he has his own mailing list, and it is closed to the public. You can read it at http://archive.humbug.org.au/hijacked/ though this is an unauthorized archive that some dissenting list member populates. They even have little internal witch-hunts to try to find out which of their list members are responsible for information leaks. It's quite novel! -- Jeff
Re: Authority (fwd)
I apologize for further troll feeding, but, I think this warrants some clarification... I take issue with anyone who publicly accuses another entity of wrongdoing beyond his scope of authority. You can take issue, but, there is no scope of authority for accusations. Anyone can make an accusation against anyone else at any time. At least in the united States. It's part of what is known as free speech. If people are speeding in my neighborhood, I can not go and take down their pictures, personal information, license plate numbers, etc., post them pupubliclyand accuse them of breaking the law (even if they did!). That's liabel, and it is illegal (and wrong). It is no less wrong just because it is up to the victim of the post to take corrective/punative action in a civil forum (ie lawsuit). Actually, you can. There is no law against it. The word you were looking for is Libel, not Liabel, and, for a claim to be libelous, it must meet the following criteria: 1. It must be published 2. It must be provably false 3. It must cause harm Legally, you can take pictures of anything in a public place and publish them. Legally, you can write down a license number observed in a public place. Further, unless the person can claim that your statement they were speeding is false by preponderance of the evidence, they are unlikely to succeed in suing you for libel. You can take issue with it all you want. Whether it is right or wrong to do so is a separate issue. However, it is most definitely _NOT_ illegal at least not under the libel laws. The correct action would be to lobby the authorities (police in the example, arin in this situation) to take enforcement measures, NOT to demand that the criminals justify their actions to you (specifically speaking to whom my email was originally addressed). There are fiscal and legal ramifications to what is being done here. I suggest you do some further study before making legal claims. What you have done here is merely demonstrate an ignorance of the law. I don't always agree with William, but, I haven't seen him do anything illegal yet. Owen -- If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Authority
If people are speeding in my neighborhood, I can not go and take down their pictures, personal information, license plate numbers, etc., post them publically, and accuse them of breaking the law (even if they did!). Yes you can. That's liabel, It is not libel, that they were speeding is a true statement. Truth is an absolute defense against a charge of libel. and it is illegal (and wrong). And what law does it violate? as previous respondent said In the north-american country I happen to live in, you do not need 'authority' to express your opinions. I suspect I live in the same country, and here you need even less (i.e. zero) 'authority' to express that which is true. good day jon
Re: Authority
On 10 Dec 2003 19:49 UTC Jeff S Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | the nanog-l is not WILLIAM LEIBZON's personnal hatered list. If he | wants people to read on his stuff, he can just start his own list. | | Actually, he has his own mailing list, and it is closed to the public. | You can read it at http://archive.humbug.org.au/hijacked/ though this | is an unauthorized archive that some dissenting list member populates. The Hijacked list is certainly not William's private list, although he is a welcome contributor there. I am but the humble keeper of that list and with the rest of the participants we try to share information about IP/ASN misuse so that (parts of) the 'net can run more smoothly. Anyone can join and (within reason) contribute unless they appear to be involved with the routing of IP blocks of dubious provenance. (And yes, I admit it, I'm behind with the new joiners queue. Apologies for that!) The archive site is expected to be relocating on or about 12/31/2003 Blaxthos [EMAIL PROTECTED] previously wrote: | I take issue with anyone who publically accuses another entity of | wrongdoing beyond his scope of authority. Then you would appear to have a circular argument to contend with. -- Richard Cox
Re: Authority
I think that most people with clue will realize that every time he mentions or posts something thats about 50-90% innacurate, he damages his own credibility anyways. A lot of the stuff I've seen in regard to this issue is almost comical, and I wonder who picked on him so badly that he decided to lash out this way. Frankly, I think his vitriol would be better directed at those who defraud their upstream ISPs, as that hurts the community more than some hijacked unused IP space.
Re: MTU path discovery and IPSec
Joe Maimon wrote: Tony Rall wrote: On Wednesday, 2003-12-03 at 09:38 PST, David Sinn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snipped snipped I was wondering would it not be wiser for fraggers to frag in half instead of just the overflow? snip I noticed today this URL http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/sw/iosswrel/ps1839/products_feature_guide09186a0080115533.html Interesting part down on the page: Uniform Fragmentation Packets are fragmented into equally sized units to prevent further downstream fragmentation. Tony Rall
Re: Authority
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Blaxthos wrote: hello, i've been reading nanog-l/inet-access for many many years (just a shadow, i don't post). Hello shadow of anonymous nanog inet-access subscriber... I do first have to wonder if you have read newspapers or seen tv shows like 60 minutes recently? As for the authorities you can be sure that questinable blocks were reported to ARIN and the data helped them a lot in their investigations. And its interesting that in 99% of those reports have resulted in either block being deleted or marked invalid or change of contacts address of the block to point to correct entity. The least dangerous cases were dealt with without involvement of authorities which I suspect was in best interest of both authorities (saved their resources) and the actual people involved. And the most dangerous activity went to real authorities one case is in criminal court right now. Besides that as I point to everybody, I post public data collected together (eventhough sometimes I have whole bunch more private info, for example I've seen actual bill of sale for several ip blocks) and make sure that everybody understand they should primarily make their own opinion based on this public data. Answering the last message I've seen on the thread so far, if you think something is not accurate, would you mind letting me know privately or posting about it. If you like I can open public message board allowing to comment on each case (although I think this will result in slander by yet more people posting anonymously) or you can post to approriate mail list (i.e. hijacked). I'm not saying there are no inaccuraces, but its probably in the single percentage points considering that public data is what is being used whenever possible for public website. P.S. Note to other - this thread may have happened because of recent thread on layer42 on inet-access mail list. While I generally answer accusations, I'm not the one who starts such threads and do not think its approriate for nanog mail list, so this will be my only message here. i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (or anyone else)? or is yours a rogue vigilante mission? does anyone ask you to undertake the battles you feel justified in engaging in? this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you're very self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i withold judgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to say the things you say about others. /blaxthos
Re: MTU path discovery and IPSec
On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 03:43:59PM -0500, Joe Maimon wrote:
Packets are fragmented into equally sized units to prevent further
downstream fragmentation.
For amusement's sake, in response to a challenge from Crist Clark,
here's code to do it right. Pretty simple, although I have no idea
how to do it in an ASIC.
--
Barney Wolff http://www.databus.com/bwresume.pdf
I'm available by contract or FT, in the NYC metro area or via the 'Net.
// Simulate a fragmentation algorithm
// frag Omtu [Ihdrsz]
// Barney Wolff[EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/4/03
// Copyright (c) Databus Inc. Free to use with attribution.
#include iostream
#include cstdlib
using namespace std;
int
main(int argc, char **argv) {
int Ihdrsz=20, Omtu, MinIpaysz, MaxIpaysz, Opaylst, Opaysz;
switch (argc) {
default:cerr Usage: frag-alg Omtu [Ihdrsz]\n; exit(1);
case 3: Ihdrsz = atoi(argv[2]);
case 2: Omtu = atoi(argv[1]);
}
MinIpaysz = Omtu - 1 - Ihdrsz;
MaxIpaysz = 65535 - Ihdrsz;
Opaylst = Omtu - Ihdrsz;
Opaysz = Opaylst 0xfff8;
cout Output MTU Omtu Input header size Ihdrsz endl;
cout Max payload of last packet: Opaylst others Opayszendl;
for (int Ipaysz=MinIpaysz; Ipaysz=MaxIpaysz; Ipaysz++) {
cout Ipaysz + Ihdrsz;
int Opayn = Opaysz, Nfrag, Maxin, Lastsz, Delta;
Nfrag = 1 + (Ipaysz - Opaylst + Opaysz - 1) / Opaysz;
Maxin = Nfrag * Opaysz;
if (Maxin Ipaysz) Opayn -= ((Maxin - Ipaysz) / Nfrag) 0xfff8;
Lastsz = Ipaysz - (Nfrag-1) * Opayn;
Delta = Opayn - Lastsz;
if (Delta = 8) {
int Nfrag2 = Delta / 8;
Nfrag -= Nfrag2;
Lastsz += 8 * Nfrag2;
cout Nfrag2 Opayn-8+Ihdrsz;
}
if (Nfrag 1) cout Nfrag-1 Opayn+Ihdrsz;
cout Lastsz+Ihdrsz;
if (Lastsz-Opayn8 || Opayn-Lastsz8) cout *;
cout endl;
}
exit(0);
}
Re: Authority
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: P.S. Note to other - this thread may have happened because of recent thread on layer42 on inet-access mail list. While I generally answer accusations, I'm not the one who starts such threads and do not think its approriate for nanog mail list, so this will be my only message here. I think you've made plenty of accusations without basis, so to quote Richard Cox Then you would appear to have a circular argument to contend with. Don't go around accusing people of malfeasance if you're not prepared to be confronted with your own wrongdoing (IE your own hijacked blocks), or to face the criticism of others when you're wrong. I generally try to stay out of these types of arguements, but I think that you should probably focus your efforts on something more productive than defaming other ISPs.
Re: Authority
i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (or anyone else)? this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you're very self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i withold judgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to say the things you say about others. Honest question, honest answer. You seem to be looking for a command and control hierarchy where none exists. This is more like a free market economy of ideas and projects. In other words, anyone can start up something and offer it to the networking community. Projects succeed or fail based on whether they find market acceptance within the economy of ideas. Please note that this free market economy of ideas is not the same thing as the free market economy of commerce; it just shares some of the same patterns. William is not alone here. Paul Vixie started MAPS in the same way, i.e. he had no authority to do it but just offered it to the economy of ideas. And Paul's entrepreneurial inclination have led him to do other projects in the commercial economy, some of which started life in the economy of ideas. Rob Thomas's Cymru project is another example and the various route server and IRR projects are also examples. Nobody gave the IRR people the authority to manage BGP4 routes; they just thought it was a good idea and offered it in the economy of ideas. Many Internet exchange points started life in the same way and I believe there are still a lot of smaller ones that exist in the economy of ideas, i.e. non-commercial. I may not agree with everything that William does or how he goes about it, but I do think that his approach is worthwhile. It gives us a chance to see a prototype of something that could be either incorporated into ARIN or commercialized in the future. By the way, ARIN, and the IANA before it, both started life in the economy of ideas. The only reason that ARIN is in the position that it now holds is that the networking community liked what they saw and supported it. There really was no authority that created ARIN. There was a lot of initiative from members of the networking community who lobbied the various power brokers of the time to demonstrate that ISPs supported an address resgistry that was entirely independent from domain name registries. Once it became clear that the only dissenters came from outside the industry and were confusing addressing and domain name issues, those groups who felt that they had authority in the matter, blessed the plans to create ARIN, and we went ahead with it. Even here, there was no command and control that gave ARIN its commission. On the contrary, there was a lot of bottom-up pressure that finally coalesced and ARIN was obviously the right thing to do. --Michael Dillon (one of the original members of the ARIN Advisory Council)
Re: Authority
I answered questions posed here on related inet-access mail list thread and there is also info there on my previous post why the accusations had had basis for it. Those who are interested may read it there or in archives and Susan will I'm sure welcome me not taking any more of nanog resource on this. Again if somebody has -particular- data to indicate that website is not accurate, please feel free to contact me in private or on appropriate mail list, otherwise lets stop from continuing on nanog as it only invites more trolling. On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: P.S. Note to other - this thread may have happened because of recent thread on layer42 on inet-access mail list. While I generally answer accusations, I'm not the one who starts such threads and do not think its approriate for nanog mail list, so this will be my only message here. I think you've made plenty of accusations without basis, so to quote Richard Cox Then you would appear to have a circular argument to contend with. Don't go around accusing people of malfeasance if you're not prepared to be confronted with your own wrongdoing (IE your own hijacked blocks), or to face the criticism of others when you're wrong. I generally try to stay out of these types of arguements, but I think that you should probably focus your efforts on something more productive than defaming other ISPs.
Re: Authority
This group didn't need anyones permission to form and share idea's and methods that benefits the entire industry, and it was in the time of great need when these things came to pass I see the word's law and legislation and I see people without a clue making law that only benefits those that pay them and harm the rest. The solution is withinthe community of network people, not congress or any other legislator, there are 40,000 gun laws yet people get shot every day and die. There is good fortune sometimes for those that develop these systems and tools that is a byproduct of effort, sometimes these turn into flourishing enterprises because there really is no-one that can provide support on an ongoing basis. I support good original innovation that is beneficial in the near term and the long term to the industry. -Henry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (oranyone else)? this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you'revery self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i witholdjudgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to saythe things you say about others.Honest question, honest answer.You seem to be looking for a command and control hierarchy wherenone exists. This is more like a free market economy of ideasand projects. In other words, anyone can start up something andoffer it to the networking community. Projects succeed or failbased on whether they find market acceptance within the economyof ideas. Please note that this free market economy of ideas isnot the same thing as the free market economy of commerce; it justshares some of the same patterns.William is not alone here. Paul Vixie started MAPS in the same way,i.e. he had no authority to do it but just offered it to the economyof ideas. And Paul's entrepreneurial inclination have led him to doother projects in the commercial economy, some of which started lifein the economy of ideas. Rob Thomas's Cymru project is another exampleand the various route server and IRR projects are also examples. Nobodygave the IRR people the authority to manage BGP4 routes; they justthought it was a good idea and offered it in the economy of ideas.Many Internet exchange points started life in the same way and I believe there are still a lot of smaller ones that exist inthe economy of ideas, i.e. non-commercial.I may not agree with everything that William does or how he goesabout it, but I do think that his approach is worthwhile.It gives us a chance to see a prototype of something that couldbe either incorporated into ARIN or commercialized in the future.By the way, ARIN, and the IANA before it, both started life inthe economy of ideas. The only reason that ARIN is in the positionthat it now holds is that the networking community liked what theysaw and supported it. There really was no "authority" that createdARIN. There was a lot of initiative from members of the networkingcommunity who lobbied the various power brokers of the time todemonstrate that ISPs supported an address resgistry that was entirely independent from domain name registries. Once it becameclear that the only dissenters came from outside the industryand were confusing addressing and domain name issues, those groupswho felt that they had authority in the matter, blessed the plansto create ARIN, and we went ahead with it. Even here, there was nocommand and control that gave ARIN its commission. On the contrary,there was a lot of bottom-up pressure that finally coalesced andARIN was obviously the right thing to do.--Michael Dillon (one of the original members of the ARIN Advisory Council)
RE: Authority
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I may not agree with everything that William does or how he goes about it, but I do think that his approach is worthwhile. Indeed; I like the economy of ideas concept myself and in this case it might be the only valid initial approach, see below. It gives us a chance to see a prototype of something that could be either incorporated into ARIN or commercialized in the future. Exactly. Besides, if ARIN or IANA were to start something like this out of the blue, they would likely get stalled by the few trolls that don't like the idea and what would scream about it, probably questioning the legitimacy of ARIN/IANA in the first place and other BS. OTOH, with William and Rob doing their thing on their own behalf only, should it be incorporated into something bigger later it would have acquired the legitimacy of being field-tested and approved prior to the standardization effort. Rob and William have my support, and it's not because they're my co-authors. They're my co-authors because they have ideas and work towards making them better. If someone does not like what they're doing, just don't look at it and don't use it. I do, because I find value in it, as do many other participants. Michel.
Google contact
If someone from Google could contact me, I would appreciate it (or someone give up a good one). Thanks, -- Jeff Nelson Rackspace Managed Hosting Office: (210) 892 4025 x1601 GnuPG KeyID: 0x7DE7C4E0 @pgp.mit.edu AS Caretaker: 10532 15395 25897 27357 30099
RoadRunner contact
Hello all, I dont suppose anyone here might have a direct contact for the people at Road Runner in regards to DNS management and/or their abuse desk? Contact me off-list please. Thanks. -- Brian Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group Open Solutions For A Closed World / Anti-Spam Resources http://www.sosdg.org The AHBL - http://www.ahbl.org
Whitelisting mechanism in SORBS.
Hi All, My appologies for the public post, I'd have rather replied to the individuals who mailed me in response of a previous post, however time has passed and I have a huge inbox, and of course I would like to solicit more entries from those interested and just waiting to see what it is. The whitelisting system previously discussed is now nearly complete. The database and administration interface are indeed complete. I am therefore inviting those who wanted to whitelist to submit the following information to me off list: - ISP Name. - Email address of primary ISP/company contact incase of issues (bounced alerts for your company will go here along with any communication from SORBS). - Out facing IP addresses of your outgoing mailservers (last hop in the headers). - Netblocks you wish to receive reports/alerts for. (Plain text CIDR format list Minimum /32 maximum /8) - A list of email addresses where you wish the alerts to go to. The system works as follows: For the mailservers: When spam is received at a spamtrap (automated and/or manual) you will have your server listed with a 1 hour TTL, you will be sent a coded URL to the nominated alert email addresses. Using that coded URL you can delist your server immediately from the SORBS spam DB (no fine etc). The coded URL will timeout after 48 hours, if you have not used the URL by this time you will not be able to automatically remove yourself and the listing TTL will revert to the default (6 hours for an automated listings and 48 hours for a manual listings). You will receive no more than 1 URL per hour per IP address. The full headers (minus desitination email addresses of all spams received relating to a particular URL) will be available using the coded URL. Using the URLs to view the headers will not acknowledge the termination of the spammer - there is an extra step similar to that in spamcop. Each whitehat entry has a 'whiteness' value - each expired URL will make your whiteness decrease by 1, each time you use a valid URL it will go up 1. If further spam is received from an address to an automated spamtrap within 1 hour *after* you have used the URL, and acknowledged termination, for that IP your whiteness will decrease by 5. Using the URL and acknowledgement indicates you have identified and stopped the flow of spam, if you choose to delist yourself before you stop the flow that is considered not whitehat - hence the peanlty when you get caught (mail queuing in our system has been thought of and taken care of). You can get a maximum whiteness of 9 and a minimum of -9, for anything below 1 (ie -8 through 0 inclusive) you will be treated as not whitehat and will still get keys and be subject to normal TTLs (6 48). If you get to -9 you will be considered blackhat and removed from the system. For the network lists: Same principles as the mailserver IP however URLs will expire after 7 days, and TTLs are 6 hours by default. Anyone caught listwashing will be removed. Minimum entry is owning your own /24 (as found in public whois ;-)) Initial 'whiteness' will be 3. Note: The whitelist/whitehat system is completely independant of the ISP reporting system which will provide weekly reports to ISPs/companies requesting them. Yours Matthew
