Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
On 3/1/07, Brandon Galbraith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/28/07, Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a small number of wifi users with a card in a laptop to get to cellular broadband, itd be pretty easy.. Or directional wifi uplink to a building nearby, preferably G vs B (for 54Mbps). Just *say* you're using the hotel WLAN. If they show up with a spectrum analyser, well...you'll have to pay, but then that reminds me of the calibration standard for the first radar speed trap, which was based on a measurement by the National Physical Laboratory on the basis that if you could prove the NPL wrong you deserved to get away with speeding.
RE: FCC on wifi at hotel
Fixed wireless or cell wireless? I wouldn't touch cell, but most every conference I've been to (granted they are WISP conferences) has had a fixed wireless backhaul. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brandon Galbraith Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 5:42 PM To: Steve Meuse Cc: Jared Mauch; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: FCC on wifi at hotel On 2/28/07, Steve Meuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/28/07, Jared Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-157A1.pdf I do suggest reading this. They can not legally bar you from using the devices. They can charge you outrageous fees to get to/from the MMR or telco demarc and make it prohibitively expensive. Right, a wifi that goes nowhere isn't terribly useful :) You could always get to upstream via wireless. -brandon
Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
Just to be clear... While it's kind of hard to restrict radio (along the same lines as restricting the right to breathe the air in the building... you can't control what flows through the air), nothing restricts the hotel from lining the exterior walls with your basic faraday cage preventing those signals from entering at all. Of course, this also blocks cell phones, walky talkies, sattelite, and anything else that uses RF for communication. If they choose to allow any of these signals in, they pretty well have to allow ALL of them in. (And filtering cell phones esp in a building where every single interior door is locked could be argued to interfere with 911 emergency services and be a threat to public safety.) So the restrictions they're trying to put into place have more to do with what activities they, as the property owner, allow you, as a visitor, to engage in while on the premises. That kind of grey line rule making can get very tricky to both claim and to enforce. The whole thing is an ooey gooey quagmire that I want no personal part of. :-) On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 02:35:43PM -0600, Carl Karsten wrote: me again. So wifi at pycon 07 was 'better than 06' witch I hear was a complete disaster. More on 07's coming soon. Now we are talking about wifi at pycon 08, which will be at a different hotel (Crown Plaza in Rosemont, IL) and the question came up: Can the hotel actively prevent us from using our own wifi? _maney: although - wasn't the hotel stuck on our wifi or no wifi at last report? CarlFK: only the FCC can restrict radio tpollari: it's their network and their power the FCC has no legal right to that. and no, you show me where they do. I'm not wasting my day with that tripe -- the caselaw you're likely thinking of has to do with an airline and an airport and the airline's lounge, in which case they're paying for the power and paying for their bandwidth from a provider that's not the airport. We're not. I know that there are all sorts of factors, and just cuz the FCC says boo isn't the end of the story, but i don't even know what the FCC's position on this is. google gave me many hits, and after looking at 10 or so I decided to look elsewhere. Carl K --- Wayne Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Network Dude http://www.typo.org/~web/
Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:55:37 -0800 Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a small number of wifi users with a card in a laptop to get to cellular broadband, itd be pretty easy.. You might want to check the terms of service for cellular broadband -- it's certainly not permitted by Verizon for the EVDO service. --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
FCC on wifi at hotel
me again. So wifi at pycon 07 was 'better than 06' witch I hear was a complete disaster. More on 07's coming soon. Now we are talking about wifi at pycon 08, which will be at a different hotel (Crown Plaza in Rosemont, IL) and the question came up: Can the hotel actively prevent us from using our own wifi? _maney: although - wasn't the hotel stuck on our wifi or no wifi at last report? CarlFK: only the FCC can restrict radio tpollari: it's their network and their power the FCC has no legal right to that. and no, you show me where they do. I'm not wasting my day with that tripe -- the caselaw you're likely thinking of has to do with an airline and an airport and the airline's lounge, in which case they're paying for the power and paying for their bandwidth from a provider that's not the airport. We're not. I know that there are all sorts of factors, and just cuz the FCC says boo isn't the end of the story, but i don't even know what the FCC's position on this is. google gave me many hits, and after looking at 10 or so I decided to look elsewhere. Carl K
Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 02:35:43PM -0600, Carl Karsten wrote: me again. So wifi at pycon 07 was 'better than 06' witch I hear was a complete disaster. More on 07's coming soon. Now we are talking about wifi at pycon 08, which will be at a different hotel (Crown Plaza in Rosemont, IL) and the question came up: Can the hotel actively prevent us from using our own wifi? _maney: although - wasn't the hotel stuck on our wifi or no wifi at last report? CarlFK: only the FCC can restrict radio tpollari: it's their network and their power the FCC has no legal right to that. and no, you show me where they do. I'm not wasting my day with that tripe -- the caselaw you're likely thinking of has to do with an airline and an airport and the airline's lounge, in which case they're paying for the power and paying for their bandwidth from a provider that's not the airport. We're not. I know that there are all sorts of factors, and just cuz the FCC says boo isn't the end of the story, but i don't even know what the FCC's position on this is. google gave me many hits, and after looking at 10 or so I decided to look elsewhere. I suggest you google for massport fcc and continental. - jared -- Jared Mauch | pgp key available via finger from [EMAIL PROTECTED] clue++; | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/ My statements are only mine.
RE: FCC on wifi at hotel
While the hotel cannot prevent you from using Wi-Fi, but they could: a) restrict you from attaching equipment to their internet connection (unless you contracted for that and the contract didn't restrict attachments) or electrical outlets b) ask you to leave and charge you for trespassing if you didn't Its highly unlikely those renting facilities from the hotel would agree to such onerous restrictions and a hotel renting you the facilities is unlikely going to boot you out. See: http://www.wifinetnews.com/archives/007102.html for some good coverage on the Massport incident. Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carl Karsten Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 2:36 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: FCC on wifi at hotel me again. So wifi at pycon 07 was 'better than 06' witch I hear was a complete disaster. More on 07's coming soon. Now we are talking about wifi at pycon 08, which will be at a different hotel (Crown Plaza in Rosemont, IL) and the question came up: Can the hotel actively prevent us from using our own wifi? _maney: although - wasn't the hotel stuck on our wifi or no wifi at last report? CarlFK: only the FCC can restrict radio tpollari: it's their network and their power the FCC has no legal right to that. and no, you show me where they do. I'm not wasting my day with that tripe -- the caselaw you're likely thinking of has to do with an airline and an airport and the airline's lounge, in which case they're paying for the power and paying for their bandwidth from a provider that's not the airport. We're not. I know that there are all sorts of factors, and just cuz the FCC says boo isn't the end of the story, but i don't even know what the FCC's position on this is. google gave me many hits, and after looking at 10 or so I decided to look elsewhere. Carl K
Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
It's about revenue recovery. If you provide your own free wifi, they are losing potential business. It's usually part of the negotiation with the Hotel. -Steve On 2/28/07, Carl Karsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: me again. So wifi at pycon 07 was 'better than 06' witch I hear was a complete disaster. More on 07's coming soon. Now we are talking about wifi at pycon 08, which will be at a different hotel (Crown Plaza in Rosemont, IL) and the question came up: Can the hotel actively prevent us from using our own wifi? _maney: although - wasn't the hotel stuck on our wifi or no wifi at last report? CarlFK: only the FCC can restrict radio tpollari: it's their network and their power the FCC has no legal right to that. and no, you show me where they do. I'm not wasting my day with that tripe -- the caselaw you're likely thinking of has to do with an airline and an airport and the airline's lounge, in which case they're paying for the power and paying for their bandwidth from a provider that's not the airport. We're not. I know that there are all sorts of factors, and just cuz the FCC says boo isn't the end of the story, but i don't even know what the FCC's position on this is. google gave me many hits, and after looking at 10 or so I decided to look elsewhere. Carl K -- -Steve
Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 03:28:11PM -0600, Frank Bulk wrote: While the hotel cannot prevent you from using Wi-Fi, but they could: a) restrict you from attaching equipment to their internet connection (unless you contracted for that and the contract didn't restrict attachments) or electrical outlets b) ask you to leave and charge you for trespassing if you didn't Its highly unlikely those renting facilities from the hotel would agree to such onerous restrictions and a hotel renting you the facilities is unlikely going to boot you out. See: http://www.wifinetnews.com/archives/007102.html for some good coverage on the Massport incident. IANAL, but I just (re-)read the FCC order on the massport incident (ugh, silly massport, i have avoided logan for years now because of them..) and would like to offer my own comments on the above. Assuming you're there staying in a hotel room, it is likely to be considered a nightly lease of some sort, which protects your rights to use a Part 15 unlicensed band device within your room. This would also extend to your lease of any meeting rooms where you have some level of exclusive access to them. (The continental case actually is quite close to a conference where you may have paid attendees). As long as you've contracted power for your devices or the solar/battery array you're using to power the device meets the fire code, it doesn't appear they can restrict your usage of any of these devices, even if it's specifically prohibited in the lease/contract you have signed. In any common spaces (bathrooms, bar?, hallways, etc..) they may be able to prohibit your placement of equipment, but not necessarily the reception of the signal. - Jared -- Jared Mauch | pgp key available via finger from [EMAIL PROTECTED] clue++; | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/ My statements are only mine.
Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
On Feb 28, 2007, at 5:01 PM, Steve Meuse wrote: It's about revenue recovery. If you provide your own free wifi, they are losing potential business. It's usually part of the negotiation with the Hotel. Yes, some Hotels will indeed want revenue recovery for this - they will typically start at the rental rate per person x the number of attendees x number of days, which could be $ 10K USD per day or more for a 1000 person meeting. You may or may not be able to negotiate it down; I think that in the IETF experience the negotiate it down factor has ranged from not at all to 100%. But, since it is part of the contract, they can certainly enforce whatever is agreed to. Regards Marshall -Steve On 2/28/07, Carl Karsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: me again. So wifi at pycon 07 was 'better than 06' witch I hear was a complete disaster. More on 07's coming soon. Now we are talking about wifi at pycon 08, which will be at a different hotel (Crown Plaza in Rosemont, IL) and the question came up: Can the hotel actively prevent us from using our own wifi? _maney: although - wasn't the hotel stuck on our wifi or no wifi at last report? CarlFK: only the FCC can restrict radio tpollari: it's their network and their power the FCC has no legal right to that. and no, you show me where they do. I'm not wasting my day with that tripe -- the caselaw you're likely thinking of has to do with an airline and an airport and the airline's lounge, in which case they're paying for the power and paying for their bandwidth from a provider that's not the airport. We're not. I know that there are all sorts of factors, and just cuz the FCC says boo isn't the end of the story, but i don't even know what the FCC's position on this is. google gave me many hits, and after looking at 10 or so I decided to look elsewhere. Carl K -- -Steve
Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 05:18:24PM -0500, Marshall Eubanks wrote: On Feb 28, 2007, at 5:01 PM, Steve Meuse wrote: It's about revenue recovery. If you provide your own free wifi, they are losing potential business. It's usually part of the negotiation with the Hotel. Yes, some Hotels will indeed want revenue recovery for this - they will typically start at the rental rate per person x the number of attendees x number of days, which could be $ 10K USD per day or more for a 1000 person meeting. You may or may not be able to negotiate it down; I think that in the IETF experience the negotiate it down factor has ranged from not at all to 100%. But, since it is part of the contract, they can certainly enforce whatever is agreed to. http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-157A1.pdf I do suggest reading this. They can not legally bar you from using the devices. They can charge you outrageous fees to get to/from the MMR or telco demarc and make it prohibitively expensive. It may also be problematic to be held hostage showing up and them saying that no, you can not install your equipment while you hire a lawyer to explain to them that you are violating FCC fules for the OTARD rules. - Jared -- Jared Mauch | pgp key available via finger from [EMAIL PROTECTED] clue++; | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/ My statements are only mine.
Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:38:10 -0500 From: Jared Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FCC on wifi at hotel [[.. munch ..]] http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-157A1.pdf I do suggest reading this. They can not legally bar you from using the devices. They can charge you outrageous fees to get to/from the MMR or telco demarc and make it prohibitively expensive. It may also be problematic to be held hostage showing up and them saying that no, you can not install your equipment while you hire a lawyer to explain to them that you are violating FCC fules for the OTARD rules. - Jared Note well that the 'OTARD rules' do *NOT* apply to an organization holding a meeting at a hotel, or other meeting/convention facility. I quote: For the OTARD rules to apply, the antenna must be installed on property within the exclusive use or control of an antenna user where the user has a direct or indirect ownership or leasehold interest in the property upon which the antenna is located. An orgaization contractig for the short-term use of a meeting facility has _no_ such 'ownership or leashold' interest in the property.
Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
On 2/28/07, Jared Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-157A1.pdf I do suggest reading this. They can not legally bar you from using the devices. They can charge you outrageous fees to get to/from the MMR or telco demarc and make it prohibitively expensive. Right, a wifi that goes nowhere isn't terribly useful :) -Steve
Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
On 2/28/07, Steve Meuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/28/07, Jared Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-157A1.pdf I do suggest reading this. They can not legally bar you from using the devices. They can charge you outrageous fees to get to/from the MMR or telco demarc and make it prohibitively expensive. Right, a wifi that goes nowhere isn't terribly useful :) You could always get to upstream via wireless. -brandon
Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
Brandon Galbraith wrote: On 2/28/07, *Steve Meuse* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/28/07, *Jared Mauch* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-157A1.pdf http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-157A1.pdf I do suggest reading this. They can not legally bar you from using the devices. They can charge you outrageous fees to get to/from the MMR or telco demarc and make it prohibitively expensive. Right, a wifi that goes nowhere isn't terribly useful :) You could always get to upstream via wireless. -brandon a small number of wifi users with a card in a laptop to get to cellular broadband, itd be pretty easy.. Brian
Re: FCC on wifi at hotel
On 2/28/07, Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brandon Galbraith wrote: On 2/28/07, *Steve Meuse* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/28/07, *Jared Mauch* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-157A1.pdf http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-157A1.pdf I do suggest reading this. They can not legally bar you from using the devices. They can charge you outrageous fees to get to/from the MMR or telco demarc and make it prohibitively expensive. Right, a wifi that goes nowhere isn't terribly useful :) You could always get to upstream via wireless. -brandon a small number of wifi users with a card in a laptop to get to cellular broadband, itd be pretty easy.. Or directional wifi uplink to a building nearby, preferably G vs B (for 54Mbps).
