RE: How do I log on while in flight?
The FCC prohibits communication using a cellular telephone while in an aircraft in US airspace. In Canada, I don't believe there is such a regulation. From doing research on this topic earlier this year, I came across news articles that say that several aircraft manufacturers have tested the use of cellular telephones on aircraft systems and found no effects whatsoever. So why the FCC ruling? Likely it's because of the design of the cellular network - which from what I understand, is far more dense in the US than it is in Canada (which might be why the CRTC doesn't have such a prohibition). The problem is what happens when a cellular device is based above the cellular system antennae - there is an ability to connect to multiple systems simultaneously, and that's something the system wasn't designed to see happen. Additionally, there's the hand-off factor, of the negotiation process of what happens when you leave the range of one cellular tower and enter the range of another. In an aircraft, that happens at a rate greater than would be if the cellular phone were used in a car - so again, there's a problem there. The Airphone system found on commercial aircraft was designed to overcome these limitations - which is why they CAN be used onboard commercial aircraft systems. So, besides it being illegal, you run the risk of taking down your service provider's cellular network - and from what I've heard, this doesn't make them very happy. In summary - don't do it. -- Leigh Anne Chisholm Network Engineer Applied Design Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Scott Weeks Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 2:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: How do I log on while in flight? I was wondering if any of y'all could give me pointers to services I could use to log into a network during flight on a private airplane. For example a person is in flight cross-country and needs to do a videoconference, send email from his network to interested parties, or any of the normal things we do from the ground. Is this possible or would it interfere with the plane's other systems? scott
RE: How do I log on while in flight?
I seem to recall a program on the Discovery Channel [ ;Pp ] where cellphone, FM/AM radio, walkman and CD player emitted radiation possibly could interfere with some old equipment on old aircraft (ie probably precautionary rather than real risk) .. I forget the detail but on an affected plane it did sound fairly nasty! Think it was a similar thing in hospitals.. ? Steve /trivia On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Leigh Anne Chisholm wrote: The FCC prohibits communication using a cellular telephone while in an aircraft in US airspace. In Canada, I don't believe there is such a regulation. From doing research on this topic earlier this year, I came across news articles that say that several aircraft manufacturers have tested the use of cellular telephones on aircraft systems and found no effects whatsoever. So why the FCC ruling? Likely it's because of the design of the cellular network - which from what I understand, is far more dense in the US than it is in Canada (which might be why the CRTC doesn't have such a prohibition). The problem is what happens when a cellular device is based above the cellular system antennae - there is an ability to connect to multiple systems simultaneously, and that's something the system wasn't designed to see happen. Additionally, there's the hand-off factor, of the negotiation process of what happens when you leave the range of one cellular tower and enter the range of another. In an aircraft, that happens at a rate greater than would be if the cellular phone were used in a car - so again, there's a problem there. The Airphone system found on commercial aircraft was designed to overcome these limitations - which is why they CAN be used onboard commercial aircraft systems. So, besides it being illegal, you run the risk of taking down your service provider's cellular network - and from what I've heard, this doesn't make them very happy. In summary - don't do it. -- Leigh Anne Chisholm Network Engineer Applied Design Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Scott Weeks Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 2:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: How do I log on while in flight? I was wondering if any of y'all could give me pointers to services I could use to log into a network during flight on a private airplane. For example a person is in flight cross-country and needs to do a videoconference, send email from his network to interested parties, or any of the normal things we do from the ground. Is this possible or would it interfere with the plane's other systems? scott
RE: How do I log on while in flight?
I was mainly thinking of satellite systems, but failed to remember the latency problems associated with them so the videoconferencing example wouldn't work. (not enough coffee today... :) So for latency tolerent apps does satellite work well when traveling at air speeds? If the footprint doesn't cover the entire area traveled how well does hand off from one 'cell' to another work? What do the big boys like the president and corporate execs use? Also, that the cellular network could crash if cell phones are used at altitude seems like a big security hole to me. scott On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Leigh Anne Chisholm wrote: : The FCC prohibits communication using a cellular telephone while in an : aircraft in US airspace. In Canada, I don't believe there is such a : regulation. : : From doing research on this topic earlier this year, I came across news : articles that say that several aircraft manufacturers have tested the use of : cellular telephones on aircraft systems and found no effects whatsoever. So : why the FCC ruling? : : Likely it's because of the design of the cellular network - which from what I : understand, is far more dense in the US than it is in Canada (which might be : why the CRTC doesn't have such a prohibition). The problem is what happens : when a cellular device is based above the cellular system antennae - there is : an ability to connect to multiple systems simultaneously, and that's something : the system wasn't designed to see happen. Additionally, there's the hand-off : factor, of the negotiation process of what happens when you leave the range of : one cellular tower and enter the range of another. In an aircraft, that : happens at a rate greater than would be if the cellular phone were used in a : car - so again, there's a problem there. The Airphone system found on : commercial aircraft was designed to overcome these limitations - which is why : they CAN be used onboard commercial aircraft systems. : : So, besides it being illegal, you run the risk of taking down your service : provider's cellular network - and from what I've heard, this doesn't make them : very happy. : : In summary - don't do it. : : : -- Leigh Anne Chisholm : Network Engineer : Applied Design Networks : : : -Original Message- : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of : Scott Weeks : Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 2:11 PM : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Subject: How do I log on while in flight? : : I was wondering if any of y'all could give me pointers to services I could : use to log into a network during flight on a private airplane. For example : a person is in flight cross-country and needs to do a videoconference, : send email from his network to interested parties, or any of the normal : things we do from the ground. Is this possible or would it interfere with : the plane's other systems? : : scott : :
RE: How do I log on while in flight?
Yo Scott! Several services will do what you want. They are ALL expensive. One of them is Orbcomm: http://www.orbcomm.com They have several FAA TSOed (a.k.a. certified) redios for aircraft usage. With Orbcomm you can send and receive email, weather fax, etc. Echo Flight is one reseller of Orbcomm service to small airplanes: http://www.echoflight.com There service is $10/month plus $1/email The FAA is currently funding several competing data-link projects. The idea is to force vendors to give away basic services to all airplanes and be allowed to charge for premium services like email. Details at: http://www.avweb.com/oshkosh/osh99/day5/fis/index.html Icarus has their SatTalk II phone. It allows cell phone like connections while inflight. See them at: http://www.icarusinstruments.com/ But is this really on topic for nanog? I was not going to post until I started seeing some bad answers... RGDS GARY Commercial, Instrument, SEL, N6157R --- Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Blvd, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676 -Original Message- I was wondering if any of y'all could give me pointers to services I could use to log into a network during flight on a private airplane. For example a person is in flight cross-country and needs to do a videoconference, send email from his network to interested parties, or any of the normal things we do from the ground. Is this possible or would it interfere with the plane's other systems? scott
RE: How do I log on while in flight?
I'm fairly certain the cell networks won't crash - as demonstrated in some calls made last fall. It's more like they won't be able to bill for the time or keep track of your calls. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Scott Weeks Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 5:01 PM To: Leigh Anne Chisholm Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: How do I log on while in flight? I was mainly thinking of satellite systems, but failed to remember the latency problems associated with them so the videoconferencing example wouldn't work. (not enough coffee today... :) So for latency tolerent apps does satellite work well when traveling at air speeds? If the footprint doesn't cover the entire area traveled how well does hand off from one 'cell' to another work? What do the big boys like the president and corporate execs use? Also, that the cellular network could crash if cell phones are used at altitude seems like a big security hole to me. scott On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Leigh Anne Chisholm wrote: : The FCC prohibits communication using a cellular telephone while in an : aircraft in US airspace. In Canada, I don't believe there is such a : regulation. : : From doing research on this topic earlier this year, I came across news : articles that say that several aircraft manufacturers have tested the use of : cellular telephones on aircraft systems and found no effects whatsoever. So : why the FCC ruling? : : Likely it's because of the design of the cellular network - which from what I : understand, is far more dense in the US than it is in Canada (which might be : why the CRTC doesn't have such a prohibition). The problem is what happens : when a cellular device is based above the cellular system antennae - there is : an ability to connect to multiple systems simultaneously, and that's something : the system wasn't designed to see happen. Additionally, there's the hand-off : factor, of the negotiation process of what happens when you leave the range of : one cellular tower and enter the range of another. In an aircraft, that : happens at a rate greater than would be if the cellular phone were used in a : car - so again, there's a problem there. The Airphone system found on : commercial aircraft was designed to overcome these limitations - which is why : they CAN be used onboard commercial aircraft systems. : : So, besides it being illegal, you run the risk of taking down your service : provider's cellular network - and from what I've heard, this doesn't make them : very happy. : : In summary - don't do it. : : : -- Leigh Anne Chisholm : Network Engineer : Applied Design Networks : : : -Original Message- : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of : Scott Weeks : Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 2:11 PM : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Subject: How do I log on while in flight? : : I was wondering if any of y'all could give me pointers to services I could : use to log into a network during flight on a private airplane. For example : a person is in flight cross-country and needs to do a videoconference, : send email from his network to interested parties, or any of the normal : things we do from the ground. Is this possible or would it interfere with : the plane's other systems? : : scott : :
Re: How do I log on while in flight?
The problem isn't logging, billing, or crashing the network. The problem is that the Cells are designed to have a certain area of coverage based on the assumption that the remote station is a ground-based station. When you elevate a station, that station becomes capable of transmitting it's signal significantly further, as the horizon expands and obstructions are reduced. Thus, instead of bringing up a small number of cells from the ground that are expecting a certain amount of co-channel interferrence from each other and from stations that are between them, you can occupy the channel on a large number of cells that are not expecting a single phone to hit all of them. Bottom line, it's kind of like spewing a flood ping into the net over a T1. You aren't going to crash the network, but you're sure using a lot more bandwidth than expected, and you're wasting bandwidth that could be used by others. Hope that clarifies it. Owen P.S. It's against FCC, not FAA regulations, although there are also FAA regulations that prohibit the use of a transmitting or receiving device on a part 121 air carrier unless the pilot gives informed consent. Further, the FCC regulation prohibits the use of a cell phone while the aircraft's wheels are not in contact with the ground. Jacob M Wilkens wrote: I'm fairly certain the cell networks won't crash - as demonstrated in some calls made last fall. It's more like they won't be able to bill for the time or keep track of your calls. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Scott Weeks Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 5:01 PM To: Leigh Anne Chisholm Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: How do I log on while in flight? I was mainly thinking of satellite systems, but failed to remember the latency problems associated with them so the videoconferencing example wouldn't work. (not enough coffee today... :) So for latency tolerent apps does satellite work well when traveling at air speeds? If the footprint doesn't cover the entire area traveled how well does hand off from one 'cell' to another work? What do the big boys like the president and corporate execs use? Also, that the cellular network could crash if cell phones are used at altitude seems like a big security hole to me. scott On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Leigh Anne Chisholm wrote: : The FCC prohibits communication using a cellular telephone while in an : aircraft in US airspace. In Canada, I don't believe there is such a : regulation. : : From doing research on this topic earlier this year, I came across news : articles that say that several aircraft manufacturers have tested the use of : cellular telephones on aircraft systems and found no effects whatsoever. So : why the FCC ruling? : : Likely it's because of the design of the cellular network - which from what I : understand, is far more dense in the US than it is in Canada (which might be : why the CRTC doesn't have such a prohibition). The problem is what happens : when a cellular device is based above the cellular system antennae - there is : an ability to connect to multiple systems simultaneously, and that's something : the system wasn't designed to see happen. Additionally, there's the hand-off : factor, of the negotiation process of what happens when you leave the range of : one cellular tower and enter the range of another. In an aircraft, that : happens at a rate greater than would be if the cellular phone were used in a : car - so again, there's a problem there. The Airphone system found on : commercial aircraft was designed to overcome these limitations - which is why : they CAN be used onboard commercial aircraft systems. : : So, besides it being illegal, you run the risk of taking down your service : provider's cellular network - and from what I've heard, this doesn't make them : very happy. : : In summary - don't do it. : : : -- Leigh Anne Chisholm : Network Engineer : Applied Design Networks : : : -Original Message- : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of : Scott Weeks : Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 2:11 PM : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Subject: How do I log on while in flight? : : I was wondering if any of y'all could give me pointers to services I could : use to log into a network during flight on a private airplane. For example : a person is in flight cross-country and needs to do a videoconference, : send email from his network to interested parties, or any of the normal : things we do from the ground. Is this possible or would it interfere with : the plane's other systems? : : scott : :
RE: How do I log on while in flight?
Yo Scott! On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Scott Weeks wrote: Also, that the cellular network could crash if cell phones are used at altitude seems like a big security hole to me. Boeing has repeatedly stated that it is not stupid enough to make airplanes that will fail because someone in the back has an electronic device on. Ossama would love that if it were so. It is the FCC, or the individual airline that bans electronic devices, not the FAA. The FCC bans most (not all!) cell phone in flight because cell phones are line of sight. So on in-flight cell phone ties up a LOT of cell towers on the ground. Air ambulances routinely ignore this rule and I am sure a lot of people are alive today because they do. One of the airborne certified vendors of airborne cellular is AirCell: http://www.aircell.com Garmin sells the NavTalk Pilot which is a combination GPS, ground cell phone and airborne cell phone: http://www.garmin.com/products/navTalkPilot/ GTE Airfone is a ground based phone TSOed (a.k.a. certified) for in flight use in small airplanes. They are at: http://www.airfone.com Being ground based it does not have the latency problems of Sat Phones. The bad part is in only works when you are in the air. The airline bans electronic devices just to shut up the little old ladies. My favorite is please turn off you PDA for takeoff. Huh? All the On/Off sitch on the PDA does is turn off the screen... RGDS GARY --- Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Blvd, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676
Re: How do I log on while in flight?
On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Joe Abley wrote: |-I couldn't find the energy to go swimming in the Canadian Air |-Regulations, but I did find this in the AIP Canada: |- |- COM 5.14 Pilot Cellular Phone Use During a Radio Communications Failure |- |- In the event of an in-flight radio communications failure, and only |- after normal communications failure procedures have been followed (see |- RAC 6.3.2.1), the pilot-in-command may attempt to contact the |- appropriate NAV CANADA ATS unit by means of a cellular phone. Before |- the pilot begins using a cellular phone to contact ATS in the event of |- an in-flight communications failure, transponder-equipped aircraft |- should squawk Code 7600 (see RAC 1.10.7). |- |-This at least suggests that there's no CRTC restriction on using |-cellular telephones from altitude (or that any such CRTC restrictions |-can be overriden by Transport Canada). A slight addition to this (maybe OT) thread but my wife was being medivac'd on a small jet to a larger medical facility a few years ago, one of the medical fellows on board used his cell phone a couple of times on board while in flight. I asked him about that and he said it was no problem and he said there was no restriction as far as he knew. As long as there was service he could use the phone. It was a big clunky Motorola brick phone. But the plane/medivac is part of the provincial ambulance service so rules might be different in this case, compared to commercial aviation. Keith |-Joe
Re: How do I log on while in flight?
Thus spake Keith Woodworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] A slight addition to this (maybe OT) thread but my wife was being medivac'd on a small jet to a larger medical facility a few years ago, one of the medical fellows on board used his cell phone a couple of times on board while in flight. I asked him about that and he said it was no problem and he said there was no restriction as far as he knew. As long as there was service he could use the phone. It was a big clunky Motorola brick phone. as far as he knew -- You really think a paramedic (who just happens to be in a helo that day) knows the intricacies of cellular telephone regulations and how they change when airborne? I think he's a bit more concerned about how to keep his patients alive. But the plane/medivac is part of the provincial ambulance service so rules might be different in this case, compared to commercial aviation. Lifeguard flights get priority treatment by ATC, but they are not specifically exempted from any aviation or radio regulations. That said, both the aviation and radio regulations have blanket exemptions for any otherwise prohibited activity which is necessary for the preservation of life. This means that if someone's life is in danger, be it yours or a medivac patient's, anything reasonable goes. S
Re: How do I log on while in flight?
Leigh Anne Chisholm wrote: The FCC prohibits communication using a cellular telephone while in an aircraft in US airspace. In Canada, I don't believe there is such a regulation. The GTE airfones installed in most large planes have data ports if you must connect a computer. But be prepared to pay a very steep per-minute charge for the connection. -- David
RE: How do I log on while in flight?
This probably isn't certified for flight use, but: http://www.kvh.com/products/product.asp?id=60 would provide the uplink with usable bandwidth. The downlink requires: http://www.kvh.com/products/product.asp?id=13 for auto tracking. Tony (who is not affiliated in any way with the manufacturer) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Scott Weeks Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 1:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: How do I log on while in flight? I was wondering if any of y'all could give me pointers to services I could use to log into a network during flight on a private airplane. For example a person is in flight cross-country and needs to do a videoconference, send email from his network to interested parties, or any of the normal things we do from the ground. Is this possible or would it interfere with the plane's other systems? scott
RE: How do I log on while in flight?
sattelite links do not rule out videoconferencing, ip phones etc. large portions of the world live with 700ms or higher round trip times for both voice and data. joelja On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Scott Weeks wrote: I was mainly thinking of satellite systems, but failed to remember the latency problems associated with them so the videoconferencing example wouldn't work. (not enough coffee today... :) So for latency tolerent apps does satellite work well when traveling at air speeds? If the footprint doesn't cover the entire area traveled how well does hand off from one 'cell' to another work? What do the big boys like the president and corporate execs use? Also, that the cellular network could crash if cell phones are used at altitude seems like a big security hole to me. scott On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Leigh Anne Chisholm wrote: : The FCC prohibits communication using a cellular telephone while in an : aircraft in US airspace. In Canada, I don't believe there is such a : regulation. : : From doing research on this topic earlier this year, I came across news : articles that say that several aircraft manufacturers have tested the use of : cellular telephones on aircraft systems and found no effects whatsoever. So : why the FCC ruling? : : Likely it's because of the design of the cellular network - which from what I : understand, is far more dense in the US than it is in Canada (which might be : why the CRTC doesn't have such a prohibition). The problem is what happens : when a cellular device is based above the cellular system antennae - there is : an ability to connect to multiple systems simultaneously, and that's something : the system wasn't designed to see happen. Additionally, there's the hand-off : factor, of the negotiation process of what happens when you leave the range of : one cellular tower and enter the range of another. In an aircraft, that : happens at a rate greater than would be if the cellular phone were used in a : car - so again, there's a problem there. The Airphone system found on : commercial aircraft was designed to overcome these limitations - which is why : they CAN be used onboard commercial aircraft systems. : : So, besides it being illegal, you run the risk of taking down your service : provider's cellular network - and from what I've heard, this doesn't make them : very happy. : : In summary - don't do it. : : : -- Leigh Anne Chisholm : Network Engineer : Applied Design Networks : : : -Original Message- : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of : Scott Weeks : Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 2:11 PM : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Subject: How do I log on while in flight? : : I was wondering if any of y'all could give me pointers to services I could : use to log into a network during flight on a private airplane. For example : a person is in flight cross-country and needs to do a videoconference, : send email from his network to interested parties, or any of the normal : things we do from the ground. Is this possible or would it interfere with : the plane's other systems? : : scott : : -- -- Joel Jaeggli Academic User Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] --PGP Key Fingerprint: 1DE9 8FCA 51FB 4195 B42A 9C32 A30D 121E -- In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of the scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first. -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
