Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
On Wed, 22 May 2002, Kristian P. Jackson wrote: Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? I'm afraid there's not enough stuff one has to know to sucessfully design networks to fill more than one-semester course. --vadim
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
Andrew, The college I am attending, Strayer Univeristy, has a B.S. degree in Internetworking. While it is kinds geared towards Cisco the good part is that they will give credit for life experience etc. I am getting credit for 8 classes due to my work experience in the field. The also have online courses so you do not have to actually go to class. They are a private school so tuition is a bit higher than state run schools but to me worth the cost since I do not think a degree in Computer Science is going to help me in my career. The price for the online courses are the same no matter where you live. Finally, they are fully accredited. www.strayer.edu Monkeys screamed incessantly when Andrew Dorsett said: On Wed, 22 May 2002, Kristian P. Jackson wrote: running around acting like network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? EXACTLY my conceptSo why can't we find some university and develop this so I can transfer into a program I enjoy - Andrew --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.andrewsworld.net/ ICQ: 2895251 Cisco Certified Network Associate Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself. Cheers, Rick Casarez, CCNP/CCDP Systems Engineer II Phone: 703-886-7468 - WorldCom powered by the UUNET backbone -
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
In the immortal words of Paul Vixie ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): The trouble is, often times I'd rather hire the world's smartest garbage man. I never forget that when I got done interviewing for my first full time programming job I went back to my job fixing cars and pumping gas, and my fallback plan in case programming didn't work out was driving a tow truck (which paid better than either.) *blink* You are the second person to tell me this story, almost word-for-word verbatim, including the detail about the tow trucks. The first person was Eugene Kashpureff. (Indeed, Alternic, Inc. was actually a d/b/a identify of his towing company.) It's a small, and very strange world. -n [EMAIL PROTECTED] Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman she meets and then teams up with three complete stangers to kill again. (-- TV listing for the movie, The Wizard of Oz, in the Marin Paper.) http://blank.org/memory/
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
What you have to remember is that having a degree or certification allows the non-clue full out in the 'real' world to easily tell the difference between you and say, the world's smartest garbage man. Of course, the upside to that is, you will only wind up working in places with a high enough clue level to understand your value, hence you will be happier... Anyplace that is going to exclude you for a lack of paper, wouldn't appreciate you for your talents anyway. (in my experience)... As far as 'degrees mean you are capable of 'sticking with' something', I would think that a look at someone's employment history for the last 10 years or so would indicate that MUCH better than 4 years of sitting through outdated lectures... If your resume shows more than 4 jobs in the last 3 years (and you didn't get laid off), what does THAT stay about your ability to 'stick with' something? Yours in Networking, Paul A Flores -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Christopher J. Wolff Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 13:16 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is equally as obsurd. I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers. Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com Andrew Dorsett said: *jumping on my soap box* I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is obsurd.
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:16:24AM -0700, Christopher J. Wolff wrote: I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is equally as obsurd. I think you mean absurd, a word you should have heard a lot by now. I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test; Emperor-Level CCIE? I don't even know where to go with that one. however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers. Certifications exist to help those without the knowledge to verify for themselves decide if you have clue or if you are just bullshitting. Yes I have seen people with CCIEs who could barely route their way out of a paper bag, and I have seen people with no certifications who are more useful than 100 CCIEs put together. But as a whole, the system works fairly well, or companies would not put weight in Cisco certifications. They can also do a good job telling us the difference between someone who runs an actual network, vs say a hosting company located in a closet next to a legacy Global Crossing access pop in Tucson AZ, where they have a DS3 yet claim to have a national OC192 network, and who steals graphics from reputable companies like GX, EXDS, and CSCO. http://www.bblabs.com/highspeed.htm http://www.bblabs.com/data_center_picture.html http://www.bblabs.com/dedicated_server.htm -- Richard A Steenbergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
I once dared to require candidates to submit written answers to three essay questions (200 to 300 words), along with their applications. The questions were about the technical subject, but the purpose in asking was to see if they could spell, and write in complete sentences. We did a formal analysis of the job beforehand, and decided that the ability to _write English_ was foremost, even ahead of the specific technical skills the job also required. This person dealt with a large community of people via email. (DNS top-level hostmaster for a large company.) We got a good guy. He's still there. When I see a resume with more degrees than a thermometer, but even minor spelling, punctuation, or other such errors, I throw it out. Meticulous attention to detail matters a lot in this business.
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
While the effectiveness of degree requirements may be argued, they are efficient. When your HR department gets hundreds or thousands of applications, they need some way to find the wheat. The net sector is young and was mostly immune to traditional business practices. Not all traditional business practices are bad (see dot.bomb). Lack of business acumen means the days of six figure income and significant stock options because there were 10 job openings for every geek who could RTFM are over. Even though the job market is coming back there's still 20 'techies' in Birkenstocks and Star Wars t-shirts for every (decent) job hiring. Everything else being equal (which is often the case) a cert or degree is a great tie-breaker. Welcome to the traditional job market fellow geeks. Remember all the jokes about Sanitation Engineers? ;) Put another way, when you take that expensive car of yours in for service (you do have one if you're successful in this industry, right? ;) ), do you go to Joe's Garage (apologies to all named Joe) or a dealer/service center with certified mechanics? Just my 2¢. The delete key is your friend. Best regards, _ Alan Rowland (BS in Business and Management, UofM, 1990 no warranty expressed or implied, use at your own risk, may be terminated at any time without notice -Original Message- From: Christopher J. Wolff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is equally as obsurd. I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers. Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com Andrew Dorsett said: *jumping on my soap box* I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is obsurd.
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
Hey now, leave joe's garage out of this and stick to church oriented activities. While your at it have a donut. now does that give away my age heh On Wed, 22 May 2002, Rowland, Alan D wrote: While the effectiveness of degree requirements may be argued, they are efficient. When your HR department gets hundreds or thousands of applications, they need some way to find the wheat. The net sector is young and was mostly immune to traditional business practices. Not all traditional business practices are bad (see dot.bomb). Lack of business acumen means the days of six figure income and significant stock options because there were 10 job openings for every geek who could RTFM are over. Even though the job market is coming back there's still 20 'techies' in Birkenstocks and Star Wars t-shirts for every (decent) job hiring. Everything else being equal (which is often the case) a cert or degree is a great tie-breaker. Welcome to the traditional job market fellow geeks. Remember all the jokes about Sanitation Engineers? ;) Put another way, when you take that expensive car of yours in for service (you do have one if you're successful in this industry, right? ;) ), do you go to Joe's Garage (apologies to all named Joe) or a dealer/service center with certified mechanics? Just my 2¢. The delete key is your friend. Best regards, _ Alan Rowland (BS in Business and Management, UofM, 1990 no warranty expressed or implied, use at your own risk, may be terminated at any time without notice -Original Message- From: Christopher J. Wolff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is equally as obsurd. I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers. Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com Andrew Dorsett said: *jumping on my soap box* I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is obsurd.
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
On Wed, 22 May 2002, Rowland, Alan D wrote: Put another way, when you take that expensive car of yours in for service (you do have one if you're successful in this industry, right? ;) ), do you go to Joe's Garage (apologies to all named Joe) or a dealer/service center with certified mechanics? I hope everyone knows by now to avoid dealer service centers. They are the biggest and shadiest scam operations ever. Personally, I go to the garage with the best reputation -- not the one with the most certifications. Certifications != honest or even competent -Dan -- [-] Omae no subete no kichi wa ore no mono da. [-]
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
Alan, Thank you for the objective response. It seems that there is room for multiple perspectives on this topic. I take my new volvo to the local equivalent of Joe's Garage for regular (3000 mile) service. Joe is not volvo certified, but they do let me watch over their shoulder to make sure everything is perfect. The service is a fraction of the cost. If there was a mistake in service, they only ask for their cost for the parts to rectify the mistake (This is the 6th car that I've taken to Joe's Garage.) However I do take the car to Volvo for the 3 mile service interval (which, in fact, contains no service, only diagnostics). If Volvo finds a problem, I'll take it back to Joe's Garage for the actual repair. I see your perspective on the HR department. HR probably deals with dozens of applicants and the certification is an easy pass/fail evaluation method. However, IMHO, there are probably many expertly qualified candidates that have no paper but are more qualified than the paper CCNA. Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Rowland, Alan D Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? While the effectiveness of degree requirements may be argued, they are efficient. When your HR department gets hundreds or thousands of applications, they need some way to find the wheat. The net sector is young and was mostly immune to traditional business practices. Not all traditional business practices are bad (see dot.bomb). Lack of business acumen means the days of six figure income and significant stock options because there were 10 job openings for every geek who could RTFM are over. Even though the job market is coming back there's still 20 'techies' in Birkenstocks and Star Wars t-shirts for every (decent) job hiring. Everything else being equal (which is often the case) a cert or degree is a great tie-breaker. Welcome to the traditional job market fellow geeks. Remember all the jokes about Sanitation Engineers? ;) Put another way, when you take that expensive car of yours in for service (you do have one if you're successful in this industry, right? ;) ), do you go to Joe's Garage (apologies to all named Joe) or a dealer/service center with certified mechanics? Just my 2¢. The delete key is your friend. Best regards, _ Alan Rowland (BS in Business and Management, UofM, 1990 no warranty expressed or implied, use at your own risk, may be terminated at any time without notice -Original Message- From: Christopher J. Wolff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is equally as obsurd. I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers. Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com Andrew Dorsett said: *jumping on my soap box* I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is obsurd.
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
My two cents: From what I have found most colleges in the area of the world that I am in (New England) focus their BCS studies on programing. Completely unrelated to the area of anything network related. This may not be the case everywhere. Maybe the industry leaders should assist the education scene in developing a degree program for future network engineers that beter prepares them for this field. It doesn't help the industry if a bunch of programers are running around acting like network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? Kristian P. Jackson, CCNP
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
Stoned koalas drooled eucalyptus spit in awe as Christopher J. Wolff exclaimed: I take my new volvo to the local equivalent of Joe's Garage for regular (3000 mile) service. Joe is not volvo certified, but they do let me watch over their shoulder to make sure everything is perfect. The service is a fraction of the cost. If there was a mistake in service, they only ask for their cost for the parts to rectify the mistake (This is the 6th car that I've taken to Joe's Garage.) However I do take the car to Volvo for the 3 mile service interval (which, in fact, contains no service, only diagnostics). If Volvo finds a problem, I'll take it back to Joe's Garage for the actual repair. How do I configure my Volvo for BGP? *ducks* -Jeff -- Jeff Workman | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.pimpworks.org
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
It's easy, just replace your ICU with a RSP8 :) Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeff Workman Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 1:38 PM To: Christopher J. Wolff; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? Stoned koalas drooled eucalyptus spit in awe as Christopher J. Wolff exclaimed: I take my new volvo to the local equivalent of Joe's Garage for regular (3000 mile) service. Joe is not volvo certified, but they do let me watch over their shoulder to make sure everything is perfect. The service is a fraction of the cost. If there was a mistake in service, they only ask for their cost for the parts to rectify the mistake (This is the 6th car that I've taken to Joe's Garage.) However I do take the car to Volvo for the 3 mile service interval (which, in fact, contains no service, only diagnostics). If Volvo finds a problem, I'll take it back to Joe's Garage for the actual repair. How do I configure my Volvo for BGP? *ducks* -Jeff -- Jeff Workman | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.pimpworks.org
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
On Wed, 22 May 2002 16:40:27 -0400 Kristian P. Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? We actually have that - or something close to it. We are slowly building a bigger networking lab with router-ish stuff for students to learn from. In fact, I'll be handing off full BGP table for them to see and play with in the lab. If you want to help us educate, we'll gladly accept any donations, particularly gear, we can get. :-) http://www.cs.depaul.edu/programs/2002/BachelorNT2002.asp http://ipdweb.cs.depaul.edu/programs/lan/index.html http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/tdc375/ http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/2001Spr365/ John
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
Not to toot the horn of my Alma Mater too much, but Ohio University's Communication Systems Management program (www.csm.ohiou.edu) is also along the lines of a network engineering degree. It also focus on other aspects of the industry (regulation, comm theory, security, etc) but they all sort of flow together. They were just getting into more hands on networking labs when I graduated, I am sure they have greatly improved since then. Mike -Original Message- From: John Kristoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:52 PM Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? On Wed, 22 May 2002 16:40:27 -0400 Kristian P. Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? We actually have that - or something close to it. We are slowly building a bigger networking lab with router-ish stuff for students to learn from. In fact, I'll be handing off full BGP table for them to see and play with in the lab. If you want to help us educate, we'll gladly accept any donations, particularly gear, we can get. :-) http://www.cs.depaul.edu/programs/2002/BachelorNT2002.asp http://ipdweb.cs.depaul.edu/programs/lan/index.html http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/tdc375/ http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/2001Spr365/ John
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
Also sounds a lot like Texas AM University's Telecommunications Engineering Technology degree. (Yes, it says Engineering Technology. No, it's not a two year associates degree.) It's currently rich on voice communications networks, but is picking up tremendously on data communications. http://etidweb.tamu.edu/telecomm/tel_index.html On Wed, 22 May 2002, Pistone, Mike wrote: Not to toot the horn of my Alma Mater too much, but Ohio University's Communication Systems Management program (www.csm.ohiou.edu) is also along the lines of a network engineering degree. It also focus on other aspects of the industry (regulation, comm theory, security, etc) but they all sort of flow together. They were just getting into more hands on networking labs when I graduated, I am sure they have greatly improved since then. Mike -Original Message- From: John Kristoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:52 PM Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? On Wed, 22 May 2002 16:40:27 -0400 Kristian P. Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? We actually have that - or something close to it. We are slowly building a bigger networking lab with router-ish stuff for students to learn from. In fact, I'll be handing off full BGP table for them to see and play with in the lab. If you want to help us educate, we'll gladly accept any donations, particularly gear, we can get. :-) http://www.cs.depaul.edu/programs/2002/BachelorNT2002.asp http://ipdweb.cs.depaul.edu/programs/lan/index.html http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/tdc375/ http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/2001Spr365/ John -- /- Marius Strom | Always carry a short length of fibre-optic cable. Professional Geek | If you get lost, then you can drop it on the System/Network Admin | ground, wait 10 minutes, and ask the backhoe http://www.marius.org/ | operator how to get back to civilization. \-| Alan Frame |--
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
At 01:36 PM 5/22/2002 -0500, Paul A Flores wrote: If your resume shows more than 4 jobs in the last 3 years (and you didn't get laid off), what does THAT stay about your ability to 'stick with' something? That you worked on the Internet in the late 90s? (Had to post to see if I could overtake Iljitsch van Beijnum. :-) Paul A Flores -- TTFN, patrick
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Valdis is from VT, so I hope he's listening. Why couldn't we as a networking community sit down and come up with a degree program that goes from BS to PhD? Sure it can touch on basic programming and basic processor design, but it would be more heavily weighted towards utilizing technologies on the market and creating solutions to the common programs. It could be a mix between the CCIE, Net+, etc. Because I know my Comp Engineering program doesn't touch on anything related at all to networking, and never even mentions the idea of security. So why not create a focused area for this? cf Internet Engineering Curriculum Repository http://www.caida.org/outreach/iec/ MEng Internetworking http://www.dal.ca/~eine/index.html cheers Bram
