Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
> ISPs and CDNs don't have to provide service to anyone. You mean like bakers don’t have to sell cakes to anyone? :) -mel > On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:40 PM, John Levine wrote: > > ISPs and CDNs don't have to provide service to > anyone.
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
In article <56cbb25e-9a53-4e5e-b2cb-3e769112f...@truenet.com> you write:
>John,
>
>Seriously, just quote so people don’t have to look it up. Honestly, though
>others are probably right in that case law usually will over-ride written law
>due
>to our legal structure.
Well, kind of, but in this particular case they're well aligned.
>> ISPs are probably protected by 47 USC 230(c)(1) but all of the case
>> law I know is related to web sites or hosting providers.
>
>[ (1)Treatment of publisher or speaker
> No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as
> the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information
> content
>provider. ]
>
>Sounds great on paper, but sort of caught backpage in a quondam, perhaps
>because they installed filters to begin with.
Keep reading and look at 47 USC 230(c)(2).
No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held
liable on account of—
(A) any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to
or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be
obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or
otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is
constitutionally protected; ...
Courts have construed "otherwise objectionable" very broadly. It
includes spam filtering.
The section Mel has been trying to interpret is different, 17 USC
512(a) which says that if you're carrying traffic in a mechanical way
(defined in more detail, see the statute) you're not responsible for
copyright violations. This is not even sort of like being a common
carrier, of course.
>Technically, will anyone else booting customer’s for any offense of TOS be
>similar is still up for grabs, since it’s basically a political nightmare for
>lawyers right now.
No, really, it's not. ISPs and CDNs don't have to provide service to
anyone. I suppose a lawyer could make a case if a provider refused to
provide service to members of a protected class ("we don't serve black
people") but the kind of people you find on 8chan aren't a protected
class.
R's,
John
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
John, Seriously, just quote so people don’t have to look it up. Honestly, though others are probably right in that case law usually will over-ride written law due to our legal structure. > On Aug 6, 2019, at 10:36 PM, John Levine wrote: > > In article <6956e76b-e6b7-409f-a636-c7607bfd8...@beckman.org> you write: >> Mehmet, >> >> I’m not sure if you understand the terms under which ISPs operate as “common >> carriers”, and thus enjoy immunity from lawsuits due to the acts of their >> customers. > > ISPs in the U.S. are not carriers and never have been. Even the ISPs > that are subsidaries of telcos, which are common carriers for their > telco operations, are not common carriers for their ISPs. > > This should not come as surprise to anyone who's spent 15 minutes > looking at the relevant law. > > ISPs are probably protected by 47 USC 230(c)(1) but all of the case > law I know is related to web sites or hosting providers. [ (1)Treatment of publisher or speaker No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider. ] Sounds great on paper, but sort of caught backpage in a quondam, perhaps because they installed filters to begin with. Technically, will anyone else booting customer’s for any offense of TOS be similar is still up for grabs, since it’s basically a political nightmare for lawyers right now. Right or wrong in your philosophy you are basically screwed imho. I guess that’s why Anne’s got a job... * Seriously though I think we should probably put a discussion thread in here, it’s reminding me of outages saying me too.
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
John, Please reread my comments. I did not say “carriers” and specifically excluded the FCC’s definition. I said “Common Carriers”, as defined by Common Law. The DMCA asserts that they must operate as CCs under this definition: in order to get protection under Safe Harbor they must function as a “passive conduit” of information. -mel via cell > On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:36 PM, John Levine wrote: > > In article <6956e76b-e6b7-409f-a636-c7607bfd8...@beckman.org> you write: >> Mehmet, >> >> I’m not sure if you understand the terms under which ISPs operate as “common >> carriers”, and thus enjoy immunity from lawsuits due to the acts of their >> customers. > > ISPs in the U.S. are not carriers and never have been. Even the ISPs > that are subsidaries of telcos, which are common carriers for their > telco operations, are not common carriers for their ISPs. > > This should not come as surprise to anyone who's spent 15 minutes > looking at the relevant law. > > ISPs are probably protected by 47 USC 230(c)(1) but all of the case > law I know is related to web sites or hosting providers. > >
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
In article <6956e76b-e6b7-409f-a636-c7607bfd8...@beckman.org> you write: >Mehmet, > >I’m not sure if you understand the terms under which ISPs operate as “common >carriers”, and thus enjoy immunity from lawsuits due to the acts of their >customers. ISPs in the U.S. are not carriers and never have been. Even the ISPs that are subsidaries of telcos, which are common carriers for their telco operations, are not common carriers for their ISPs. This should not come as surprise to anyone who's spent 15 minutes looking at the relevant law. ISPs are probably protected by 47 USC 230(c)(1) but all of the case law I know is related to web sites or hosting providers.
Re: netstat -s
:On Jul 17, 2019, at 20:54, Randy Bush wrote: :> :> do folk use `netstat -s` to help diagnose on routers/switches? Yes, for sufficienly Unix-y routers/switches. :I have used netstat -s on hosts to look at error counters if a switch or router was suspect. :But that was a while ago (anyone remember when NFS corrupted all your files if one of your routers or the NIC had a bit error outside the protection provided by the Ethernet CRC?). : :Today, I have the problem that netstat -s doesn’t seem to work right on macOS. :Many counter values are nonsensical, or simply zero. :I was guessing this was due to NIC offload, but I haven’t analyzed further. :If anyone knows more about recent macOS netstat -s, I’d love to hear more details. "sudo netstat -s" is your friend. -Mike -- Michael J. O'Connor m...@dojo.mi.org =--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--= "Puny god." -Hulk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: GEO IP Updates
No, we don't own the IPs, we lease them. We have no access to the whois data, and have other blocks that we've had no issues with, so certainly not that. Also using whois would be odd, as people often have large blocks, and don't subdivide them in whois to say where each block is located. --- Colin Legendre President and CTO Coextro - Unlimited. Fast. Reliable. w: www.coextro.com e: clegen...@coextro.com p: 647-693-7686 ext.101 m: 416-560-8502 f: 647-693-7601 On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 3:53 PM Dylan Kraklan wrote: > Did you update the info in the Whois at the RIR ? Sometimes they pull from > this in my experience. > On Aug 6, 2019, 3:48 PM -0400, Colin Legendre , > wrote: > > Hi, > > We've leased some new IP blocks, but are having issues with customers > complaining they can't access some Geo Restricted content. > > We updated all the GEO IP databases we can think of.. but are still having > issues... > > 2 services people have complained about are... > > Crave TV > Amazon Prime > > We are located in Canada as are all our clients, and they are getting > notices that they are located in the US. > > We updated... Maxmind, DB-IP, IP Info, IP Geolocation, IPHub. IP2location > > Any others we should update? > > --- > Colin > >
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019, Rob McEwen wrote: I'm so tired of this thread - but the bottom line is that censorship and even the definition of "hate" and "racism" (especially when used in the vernacular!) are extremely subjective and can lead to situations where reasonable people disagree. And if/when such policies are implemented to try to limit or shut down such speech, horrific unintended collateral damage will LIKELY occur. Also, totalitarian regimes OFTEN use the same arguments to get their foot in the door of controlling and suppressing speech. Even now, the mainstream news media is ALREADY highlighting a very selective part of these murderer's ideologies, and suppressing other parts, in order to convey an overall impression of their ideologies that doesn't actually match them, but furthers certain biased agendas. So actions to suppress "hate speech" and "racism" based on the 1/2 truths that most have been brainwashed to believe about these evil murderers' beliefs (1/2 contradicted by their own actual writings, which are already evil!), is ALREADY well on its way towards potentially causing collateral damage by unplugging or suppressing forums/platforms that really don't closely match the actual ideology of the shooters. those who perform political curation of content are at risk of losing their section 230 protections. archive.fo/zOUBG if you really want this to happen, go ahead and "remove racism out of internet". you won't like the result. -Dan
Re: the CLOUD Act (was What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet)
My final comment on the original proposition of this thread, "What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet.” is that no, we can’t remove racism from the Internet and still have free speech on, at least, democratically-administered Internet realms. -mel On Aug 6, 2019, at 12:43 PM, Keith Medcalf mailto:kmedc...@dessus.com>> wrote: On Tuesday, 6 August, 2019 13:21, Valdis Kletnieks mailto:valdis.kletni...@vt.edu>> wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:54:55 -0600, "Keith Medcalf" said: I realize that the purpose of the terms "serve a demand" if legal globedey-glook phrased to pompously instill in the reader some feeling of the majesty and due regard for the process (etc), but in reality it is just pompous for "send a letter requesting" is it not? I don't know about that. Most definitions of "pompous" don't include the implied phrase "or end up in a cell on a contempt citation". In Canada that is called "Extortion" and is a crime punishable by a number of years in prison. If the "implication" of the phraseology is to convey a threat in order to obtain compliance with the object of the statement, then the entire process is extortion from the get go. Since this cannot possibly be the case, your assertion must be incorrect, and there can be no such implication. Moveover I would wonder what exactly one would be in contempt of? The politicians who voted in favour of the passage of the Act? Contempt for the sender of the letter? None of these are capable of being "contempt" in any actionable sense. In fact, failure to comply with an order of a judge who makes an "administrative" order (that is, who is not acting as a judge, but is merely an administrative functionary or rubber-stamper) does not constitute contempt of court in Canada (since there was no actual due process or court function of judicial judgement involved to be in contempt of). Feel free to be the test case to find out if a demand under the CLOUD act can result in a US contempt citation. :) Anyone can bring whatever proceedings they like before any court at any time for any reason or no reason at all without regard to the probability of success of those proceedings. So whether or not "a demand under the CLOUD act can result in a US contempt citation" is quite meaningless. Of course, I only have first-hand knowledge of legal procedures in free countries, so how the United States does things is not entirely within my experience. -- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
Re: GEO IP Updates
Did you update the info in the Whois at the RIR ? Sometimes they pull from this in my experience. On Aug 6, 2019, 3:48 PM -0400, Colin Legendre , wrote: > Hi, > > We've leased some new IP blocks, but are having issues with customers > complaining they can't access some Geo Restricted content. > > We updated all the GEO IP databases we can think of.. but are still having > issues... > > 2 services people have complained about are... > > Crave TV > Amazon Prime > > We are located in Canada as are all our clients, and they are getting notices > that they are located in the US. > > We updated... Maxmind, DB-IP, IP Info, IP Geolocation, IPHub. IP2location > > Any others we should update? > > --- > Colin
Re: Network controller
Thanks Dylan, so bgp route-policy controller and optimizer. Any thoughts to go more granular than ips and look into the ports as well. From: Dylan Kraklan Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 2:31 PM To: lobna gouda Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Network controller We are looking for something that could manage our commts with our providers from keeping us from having to pay overages. and possibly something similar to noction which would optimize BGP to improve traffic to our clients. On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:12 PM lobna gouda mailto:lobna_go...@hotmail.com>> wrote: Hello Networker, Wanted to get a general feedback, if you are considering having a controller on your network. Let's say it will be on your core network to handle your mpls network or core network or to provide Traffic Engineering (TE) feedback/decisions What would you need from a controller and its software What we would like to have in a controller and its software what we can live without it ( The answer isnot the controller here) Cdt LG -- Dylan Kraklan Executive Vice President DediPath | Dedicated Serves | Colocation | Virtual Private Servers Office: 1 (877) 234-DEDI Ext 806 http://www.dedipath.com
Re: Network controller
We are looking for something that could manage our commts with our providers from keeping us from having to pay overages. and possibly something similar to noction which would optimize BGP to improve traffic to our clients. On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:12 PM lobna gouda wrote: > Hello Networker, > > Wanted to get a general feedback, if you are considering having a > controller on your network. Let's say it will be on your core network to > handle your mpls network or core network or to provide Traffic Engineering > (TE) feedback/decisions > > What would you need from a controller and its software > What we would like to have in a controller and its software > what we can live without it ( The answer isnot the controller here) > > Cdt > > LG > > > -- *Dylan Kraklan* *Executive Vice President* *DediPath *| Dedicated Serves | Colocation | Virtual Private Servers Office: 1 (877) 234-DEDI Ext 806 http://www.dedipath.com
GEO IP Updates
Hi, We've leased some new IP blocks, but are having issues with customers complaining they can't access some Geo Restricted content. We updated all the GEO IP databases we can think of.. but are still having issues... 2 services people have complained about are... Crave TV Amazon Prime We are located in Canada as are all our clients, and they are getting notices that they are located in the US. We updated... Maxmind, DB-IP, IP Info, IP Geolocation, IPHub. IP2location Any others we should update? --- Colin
RE: the CLOUD Act (was What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet)
On Tuesday, 6 August, 2019 13:21, Valdis Kletnieks wrote: >On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:54:55 -0600, "Keith Medcalf" said: >> I realize that the purpose of the terms "serve a demand" if legal >> globedey-glook phrased to pompously instill in the reader some >> feeling of the majesty and due regard for the process (etc), but >> in reality it is just pompous for "send a letter requesting" is it not? > I don't know about that. Most definitions of "pompous" don't include > the implied phrase "or end up in a cell on a contempt citation". In Canada that is called "Extortion" and is a crime punishable by a number of years in prison. If the "implication" of the phraseology is to convey a threat in order to obtain compliance with the object of the statement, then the entire process is extortion from the get go. Since this cannot possibly be the case, your assertion must be incorrect, and there can be no such implication. Moveover I would wonder what exactly one would be in contempt of? The politicians who voted in favour of the passage of the Act? Contempt for the sender of the letter? None of these are capable of being "contempt" in any actionable sense. In fact, failure to comply with an order of a judge who makes an "administrative" order (that is, who is not acting as a judge, but is merely an administrative functionary or rubber-stamper) does not constitute contempt of court in Canada (since there was no actual due process or court function of judicial judgement involved to be in contempt of). >Feel free to be the test case to find out if a demand under the CLOUD >act can result in a US contempt citation. :) Anyone can bring whatever proceedings they like before any court at any time for any reason or no reason at all without regard to the probability of success of those proceedings. So whether or not "a demand under the CLOUD act can result in a US contempt citation" is quite meaningless. Of course, I only have first-hand knowledge of legal procedures in free countries, so how the United States does things is not entirely within my experience. -- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
And now this has happened, in a nutshell France's lower house says remove content which is "obviously hateful" (words used in the article) in 24 hours or face up to a 1.25M euro fine. Granted perhaps it won't become law. But legislators are clearly becoming consumed with this whole internet fad and when all you have is a hammer the whole world looks like a nail. I'd argue all they're trying to legislate is free curation from providers which is a really lousy thing to do. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/frances-lower-house-passes-online-hate-speech-law/ar-AAE5prg -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
Re: the CLOUD Act (was What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet)
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:54:55 -0600, "Keith Medcalf" said: > I realize that the purpose of the terms "serve a demand" if legal > globedey-glook phrased to pompously instill in the reader some feeling of the > majesty and due regard for the process (etc), but in reality it is just > pompous > for "send a letter requesting" is it not? I don't know about that. Most definitions of "pompous" don't include the implied phrase "or end up in a cell on a contempt citation". Feel free to be the test case to find out if a demand under the CLOUD act can result in a US contempt citation. :) pgpUNpx0uYZyL.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: the CLOUD Act (was What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet)
On Tuesday, 6 August, 2019 12:17, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. wrote: ... >John Deaux is from London, and a citizen of the UK. John is working >in the U.S., at a tech company in Palo Alto, California. John has a >Gmail account, and uses Dropbox to store his photos. A law >enforcement agency in the UK decides that it wants access to the data >in John’s Gmail account and Dropbox account, and so they serve a >demand for the production of John’s data on Google and Dropbox, under >the CLOUD Act. If the U.S. and the UK have an executive agreement in >place as contemplated by the CLOUD Act, Google and Dropbox must >comply. I assume that by "serve a demand" you mean "send a letter requesting"? I realize that the purpose of the terms "serve a demand" if legal globedey-glook phrased to pompously instill in the reader some feeling of the majesty and due regard for the process (etc), but in reality it is just pompous for "send a letter requesting" is it not? >Google and Dropbox must comply. Well, no. They do not "have to" do anything. You do not *have to comply* with anything. Such is the nature of existance and it has always been thus. Of course, those seeking compliance are also free to torture you until you do as they want, but you do not "have to comply". What happens when an irresistable force (the torturer) meets and immovable object (the one refusing to comply) depends on which has the greatest resolve. -- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
Anne, I can see the 4th amendment violation here, but are there operational issues with ISPs? For example, CALEA requires telecommunications carriers (or VoIP providers) to provide voice data streams to law enforcement agencies in real time. NSLs require production of customer information in secret, which means the ISP needs internal security procedures to avoid criminal violations of the terms of the NSL. So impacted ISP’s have a clear operational concerns in both cases. What is the CLOUD Act’s operational impact? Is it the same as responding to an ordinary subpoena or search warrant? FISA, for example, has similar 4A issues, but no operational component for ISPs (the government intercepts data using its own means in the Internet backbone). One operational issue with CLOUD might be how much data an ISP turns over in a CLOUD Act request (which I gather still requires due process for the ISP). For example, when your example law enforcement agency in the UK uses their power under a CLOUD executive agreement to collect a foreign target’s data from a US ISP, can the ISP legally sanitize that data to mask US citizens information? This is, after all, the standard with FISA 702 (requiring the gov to get a warrant before looking at information collected on US intelligence agencies surveilling foreign targets). If that’s the case, then there is an operational interest in ISP-operated software to do the sanitizing. If it’s not the case, and the ISP has to turn over anything requested, I’m not seeing the operational impact. The technical effort is no different than with today’s domestic subpoenas, which ISPs deal with all the time. -mel > On Aug 6, 2019, at 11:17 AM, b...@theworld.com wrote: > > > On August 5, 2019 at 19:02 valdis.kletni...@vt.edu (Valdis Klētnieks) wrote: >> >> Hint: The DMCA has the text about data stored on ISP servers because many >> ISPs >> aren't mere conduits. And this thread got started regarding a CDN, which is >> very much >> all about storing data on servers. > > I acted as an expert witness for the FBI regarding a case which > revolved around whether email spending time on intermediate servers is > "storing" the data or is it just another form of wire transmission? > > I don't think they came to a definitive conclusion, the case was > basically settled out of court, plea-bargained I think, it was a > criminal matter. > > But needless to say, once again, a non-legal-expert's reading of > "storing data on servers" doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the > legal world. > > It turned out to be very important at least in theory since illegally > intercepting a wire transmission falls under a completely different > law than illegally accessing stored data, the defendant was arguing > that he'd been charged under the wrong law, and the court agreed it > was a valid point to investigate. > > So my phone rang and I tried to help with the part of that (technical) > I knew something about, how internet email is transmitted etc. But I > was briefed on the legal aspects to help me focus on what they needed > and I agreed it isn't /prima facie/ obvious. > > For example you may see storing of email (which may not even mean to a > physical disk) during transmission through intermediate servers as > "storing of data" but then again many network devices have various > buffering mechanisms in which data might reside for some amount of > time. Are they legally distinguishable? Should they be? etc. > > -- >-Barry Shein > > Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | > http://www.TheWorld.com > Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD > The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
Hi Anne, I would argue that if you're not in the EU and have no presence there, you are safe from GDPR. No matter how much they EUSSR wants it, they cannot enforce their laws in other jurisdictions. What would happen if Russia would try to enforce their laws in the U.S.? Same thing. GDPR is the most ridiculous piece of legislation I've ever read, and a clear indication of where the EUSSR is headed to. A bloated business unfriendly socialist continent. Thanks, Sabri Berisha, Network Engineer CEO/President, Cluecentral Ventures Inc Volunteer, Barrett Elementary School Author: www.null.nl Network Consultant M.Sc, MBA, JNCIE-M/SP #261, JNCIP-M/SP #381, JNCIS-ER, JNCIS-ENT, JNCSP-SP, ECE-IPN #2 Board of Directors, Villanova HOA Licensed Pilot Former JTAC Engineer Member: AAA - On Aug 5, 2019, at 10:56 AM, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. amitch...@isipp.com wrote: >> On Aug 5, 2019, at 11:46 AM, b...@theworld.com wrote: >> >> My first suggestion would be to include an indemnification clause in >> your contracts which includes liability for content, if you don't >> already have it (probably most do.) >> >> And a clause which indicates you (need lawyering for this) will seek >> expenses including but not limited to legal, judgements, reputational >> recovery (e.g., cost of producing press releases), etc, incurred by >> actions taken by customer. > > These are all excellent suggestions - and while we're on the subject of that > sort of thing, *everyone* should have warrantees of GDPR compliance in any of > their third-party contracts in which data can be touched, and *also* > indemnification clauses in those same contracts if you are held responsible > because those third-parties were breached, etc., and found to *not* be in > compliance with GDPR (for which GDPR specifically provides - i.e. GDPR can go > through the third-party contract and hold *you* liable). This is one of the > ways that GDPR can seep in to get you even if you think you're safe because > you're not in the EU. > > Anne > > --- > > Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law > CEO/President, Institute for Social Internet Public Policy > Dean of Cybersecurity & Cyberlaw, Lincoln Law School of San Jose > Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law) > Legislative Consultant > GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consultant > Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange > Board of Directors, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop > Legal Counsel: The CyberGreen Institute > Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) > Member: California Bar Association
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
I'm so tired of this thread - but the bottom line is that censorship and even the definition of "hate" and "racism" (especially when used in the vernacular!) are extremely subjective and can lead to situations where reasonable people disagree. And if/when such policies are implemented to try to limit or shut down such speech, horrific unintended collateral damage will LIKELY occur. Also, totalitarian regimes OFTEN use the same arguments to get their foot in the door of controlling and suppressing speech. Even now, the mainstream news media is ALREADY highlighting a very selective part of these murderer's ideologies, and suppressing other parts, in order to convey an overall impression of their ideologies that doesn't actually match them, but furthers certain biased agendas. So actions to suppress "hate speech" and "racism" based on the 1/2 truths that most have been brainwashed to believe about these evil murderers' beliefs (1/2 contradicted by their own actual writings, which are already evil!), is ALREADY well on its way towards potentially causing collateral damage by unplugging or suppressing forums/platforms that really don't closely match the actual ideology of the shooters. Again, I'm not defending the murderers in the slightest - I'm just saying that many of those in favor of limiting speech are the SAME crowd that is either publishing or consuming content that describes the shooters' ideologies in a certain particular way that purposely tries to make them look like a DIFFERENT group of deranged people, in order to advance a biased agenda. So we're already well on the way towards the collateral damage I mentioned above. Also, I'm not saying that nothing should ever be done, or that we can't make any changes or improvements, but the cure might end up being potentially much worse than the disease if we're not careful. -- Rob McEwen
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
On August 5, 2019 at 19:02 valdis.kletni...@vt.edu (Valdis Klētnieks) wrote: > > Hint: The DMCA has the text about data stored on ISP servers because many > ISPs > aren't mere conduits. And this thread got started regarding a CDN, which is > very much > all about storing data on servers. I acted as an expert witness for the FBI regarding a case which revolved around whether email spending time on intermediate servers is "storing" the data or is it just another form of wire transmission? I don't think they came to a definitive conclusion, the case was basically settled out of court, plea-bargained I think, it was a criminal matter. But needless to say, once again, a non-legal-expert's reading of "storing data on servers" doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the legal world. It turned out to be very important at least in theory since illegally intercepting a wire transmission falls under a completely different law than illegally accessing stored data, the defendant was arguing that he'd been charged under the wrong law, and the court agreed it was a valid point to investigate. So my phone rang and I tried to help with the part of that (technical) I knew something about, how internet email is transmitted etc. But I was briefed on the legal aspects to help me focus on what they needed and I agreed it isn't /prima facie/ obvious. For example you may see storing of email (which may not even mean to a physical disk) during transmission through intermediate servers as "storing of data" but then again many network devices have various buffering mechanisms in which data might reside for some amount of time. Are they legally distinguishable? Should they be? etc. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
Re: the CLOUD Act (was What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet)
> Is the CLOUD Act germane to North American network operations (the mission of > NANOG)? My understanding is that this ACT was to help solve problems the FBI > had with obtaining remote data through overseas service providers, through > SCA warrants. > > SCA already compels U.S.- and Canada-based service providers, via warrant or > subpoena, to provide requested data stored on servers. It doesn’t matter if > the data are stored in the U.S. or in another country. I’m not seeing how > CLOUD impacts any NANOG member, which just encompasses Canada and the US > (Mexico has its own network operator’s group, LACNOG.) > > I’m open to being educated, however. The CLOUD act is reciprocal. It allows an agency of another country to demand from U.S.-based holders of data that data which is relevant to a citizen of that country, where that individual is working abroad in the U.S.. - with *no* due process - in fact with no requirement of notice to that individual. It's the equivalent of a demand for production of documents (i.e. a subpoena) - no warrant, no anything else. Example (using the UK because that is the reciprocal agreement closest to being formalized): John Deaux is from London, and a citizen of the UK. John is working in the U.S., at a tech company in Palo Alto, California. John has a Gmail account, and uses Dropbox to store his photos. A law enforcement agency in the UK decides that it wants access to the data in John’s Gmail account and Dropbox account, and so they serve a demand for the production of John’s data on Google and Dropbox, under the CLOUD Act. If the U.S. and the UK have an executive agreement in place as contemplated by the CLOUD Act, Google and Dropbox must comply. And, it gets worse: Let’s say that while combing through John Deaux’s Gmail data the UK authorities find evidence that he has been laundering money, and they believe that it may be in concert with Joe Smith, who lives in Mountain View, a short distance from John. Joe is a U.S. citizen. The U.S. authorities do not know about Joe’s possible illegal activity, and they have no reason to suspect it. If they did suspect it, they would have to convince a judge to issue a warrant to search Joe’s data (because in the U.S. you can only use the subpoena route if there is already an open case against the person). *However*, there is nothing in the CLOUD Act that stops the UK agency from simply passing this data on to U.S. law enforcement voluntarily. In fact, the CLOUD Act encourages it. Anne --- Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law Dean of Cybersecurity & Cyberlaw, Lincoln Law School of San Jose CEO/President, Institute for Social Internet Public Policy Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law) Legislative Consultant GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consultant Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange Board of Directors, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Legal Counsel: The CyberGreen Institute Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) Member: California Bar Association
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
Anne, Is the CLOUD Act germane to North American network operations (the mission of NANOG)? My understanding is that this ACT was to help solve problems the FBI had with obtaining remote data through overseas service providers, through SCA warrants. SCA already compels U.S.- and Canada-based service providers, via warrant or subpoena, to provide requested data stored on servers. It doesn’t matter if the data are stored in the U.S. or in another country. I’m not seeing how CLOUD impacts any NANOG member, which just encompasses Canada and the US (Mexico has its own network operator’s group, LACNOG.) I’m open to being educated, however. -mel On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:47 AM, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. mailto:amitch...@isipp.com>> wrote: Hey guys, how about we talk about the CLOUD act now? Anne --- Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law Dean of Cybersecurity & Cyberlaw, Lincoln Law School of San Jose CEO/President, Institute for Social Internet Public Policy Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law) Legislative Consultant GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consultant Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange Board of Directors, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Legal Counsel: The CyberGreen Institute Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) Member: California Bar Association
Network controller
Hello Networker, Wanted to get a general feedback, if you are considering having a controller on your network. Let's say it will be on your core network to handle your mpls network or core network or to provide Traffic Engineering (TE) feedback/decisions What would you need from a controller and its software What we would like to have in a controller and its software what we can live without it ( The answer isnot the controller here) Cdt LG
Re: MX10003 rack size
On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 10:23 AM im wrote: > > Hi, > > > Has anyone ever managed to fit a Juniper MX10003 in a 90cm deep rack? > > Without applying power tools to either the rack or the router ;) > > No. > > In my case, MX10003 needs 13cm gap between front-door and fron-panel, > and needs 10cm gap between back-door and back-panel. > > You need at least 120cm depth. > ... but... but the sales blurb says: "Space and Power Optimized Provides advanced power-saving features in a small form factor to help contain OpEx and ensure exceptional efficiency." > > you can install 90cm depth rack if without cabling, never power-on ;) Ah. Yes, if you never power it on, it has awesome OpEx, and exceptional efficiency... solved! W > > > thanks, > > -- > im > > > On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 14:32:23 +0200 > Sander Steffann wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Has anyone ever managed to fit a Juniper MX10003 in a 90cm deep rack? > > Without applying power tools to either the rack or the router ;) > > > > Cheers, > > Sander > > > > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
Hey guys, how about we talk about the CLOUD act now? Anne --- Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law Dean of Cybersecurity & Cyberlaw, Lincoln Law School of San Jose CEO/President, Institute for Social Internet Public Policy Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law) Legislative Consultant GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consultant Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange Board of Directors, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Legal Counsel: The CyberGreen Institute Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) Member: California Bar Association
Re: MX10003 rack size
Hi, > Has anyone ever managed to fit a Juniper MX10003 in a 90cm deep rack? Without > applying power tools to either the rack or the router ;) No. In my case, MX10003 needs 13cm gap between front-door and fron-panel, and needs 10cm gap between back-door and back-panel. You need at least 120cm depth. you can install 90cm depth rack if without cabling, never power-on ;) thanks, -- im On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 14:32:23 +0200 Sander Steffann wrote: > Hi, > > Has anyone ever managed to fit a Juniper MX10003 in a 90cm deep rack? Without > applying power tools to either the rack or the router ;) > > Cheers, > Sander >
Re: OT: Tech bag
I have been really happy with my Tom Bihn Brain Bag (https://tombihn.com). I carry a 15in and 13in laptop along with a snake charmer accessory for all my cables. If you loosen the straps there’s plenty of room to also stuff a jacket AND a small to medium sized UPS parcel if need be. Aaron On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 08:16 John Covici wrote: > Maybe I made a mistake, let me try again. its > https://www.tombihnn.com, sorry about that. > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 14:54:49 -0400, > Christopher Morrow wrote: > > > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 2:50 PM John Covici > wrote: > > > > > > https://www.tombin.com has some great bags for laptops, etc. Not > > > > 'server has no ip address' . > > $ ping www.tombin.com > > PING www.tombin.com (127.0.0.1) > > > > good try to get us all infected by malware... > > > > On a less funny note, try out some of the various osprey bags. > > > > > > > cheap but very good stuff. > > > > > > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 12:19:08 -0400, > > > Hunter Fuller wrote: > > > > > > > > I carry this. It's a preference I gained in my past life: > > > > > https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/tool-storage/tradesman-pro-backpack > > > > > > > > I put my notebook (Surface Pro) in a sleeve and sandwich it between > > > > the halves. It hasn't gotten crushed to death yet. I'll admit this is > > > > not optimal. > > > > > > > > This one has since been released, and it has a laptop compartment. My > > > > co-worker loves it: > > > > > https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/tradesman-pro-organizers/tradesman-pro-tech-backpack > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 11:14 AM Dovid Bender > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for the OT email. I travel extensively to DC's and my > computer bag seems to keep collecting more tools which includes your usual > console cables, spare everything, two laptops etc. My Swissgear has been > taking a beating and I was wondering what others who have to lug around > 30-35 pounds use. > > > > > > > > > > TIA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: > > > How do > > > you spend it? > > > > > > John Covici wb2una > > > cov...@ccs.covici.com > > > > -- > Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: > How do > you spend it? > > John Covici wb2una > cov...@ccs.covici.com > -- Aaron
Re: mitel hx5000
Hi Sam, You might have better luck connecting through the Mitel User Group - https://mitelusergroup.org. Last I knew they were active and quite helpful. Andy On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 11:44, Samual Carman wrote: > does anyone have any contacts at mitel that they can share or forward me onto > > of our sister company's took over a small customer who has a mitel hx5000 and > we are having a devil of a time trying to get support from mitel > > as they want us to sign a long term maintenance contract which normally we > would have no problem with however come end of september we will be migrating > them to are in house platform and unfortunately none of the local vendors > offer short term contracts and the sister company in quiston will not budge > on the timeline > > so i am hoping the world of NANOG has the ability to connect me to someone in > mitel who would be able to help us out > mods if this breaks the rules please let me know i was unsure > > Thanks > Sam > Lead System Admin > Yakima Networking
Re: [nanog] Cisco GLBP/HSRP question -- Has it ever been dis
On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 11:38 AM Nicolas Chabbey wrote: > > Are there any good reasons of using proprietary FHRPs like HSRP and GLBP > over VRRP ? HSRP has an potential advantage over VRRP in that HSRP speakers keep track of groups (virtual gateway clusters) in which they do not participate. The distinction could matter in a configuration where the routers all participate in dynamic routing and might be generating ICMP redirects to steer host traffic toward routers in different groups. A VRRP router will redirect the client traffic toward the physical interface of a (failure-prone) physical router (the redirect matches the sending router's routing table). An HSRP router recognizes that the preferred next-hop is participating in an HSRP group, so it redirects the client traffic toward the VIP associated with that group, rather than the physical router's interface. Since these redirects result in something akin to a static route in the host device, it's safer to have that route pointing at a virtual gateway than a physical interface. You could easily convince me that any access LAN including multiple routers participating in different FHRP groups is due for a redesign, so this distinction might be moot. But I think it's a neat subtlety. /chris
MX10003 rack size
Hi, Has anyone ever managed to fit a Juniper MX10003 in a 90cm deep rack? Without applying power tools to either the rack or the router ;) Cheers, Sander signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
Re: [nanog] Cisco GLBP/HSRP question -- Has it ever been dis
On 06/08/2019 05:20, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote: > I did some sleuthing and just learned that OpenBSD's Common Address > Redundancy Protocol (also ported to other *BSDs and Linux) does support > an active/active configuration. > > I found some details in FreeBSD's carp(4) man page. Search said page > for "net.inet.carp.arpbalance". > > So … I'm going to need to do some pontification about CARP. }:-) Colour me surprised! Option is documented as early as the FreeBSD-5.4 carp(4) man pages. https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=carp=0=4=FreeBSD+5.4-RELEASE=default=html -- [ have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? ] [ Chriztoffer Hansen+1 914 3133553 ] [ 0x18dd23c550293098de07052a9dcf2ca008ebd2e8 ]
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
Valdis, You agree that the CDN content is temporary, no? That is the definition of processes used by an ISP providing pure transport services. -mel via cell > On Aug 5, 2019, at 11:36 PM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote: > > On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 06:15:36 -, Mel Beckman said: > >> Not really. The customer provides the content on its own servers. The CDN >> simply redistributes the content via temporary caching. It’s not a web >> hosting >> provider. The CDN _customer_ hosts the content. > > That's an... interesting.. interpretation. Most people would see it as the > CDN > doing the hosting, and the customer *providing* the content to be hosted. > > Do you also believe that your outbox is hosting the e-mail I'm replying to, > and > all the MTAs that got involved are just temporary caching? Or did you provide > a copy of the mail, and request that the MTAs distribute it? > > (Also, if the CDN isn't a web hosting provider, why is it able to serve up > data > on an http connection? Hint - at one time, almost the entire web was static > content, and even today a lot of it is file data not javascript and css. ;)
Re: MAP-E
The difference is that 464XLAT/NAT64 is the only one that runs in cellular networks. Also with 464XLAT, you don't need DNS64. This document is already in the RFC Editor Queue: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment/ El 6/8/19 1:24, "NANOG en nombre de Mark Andrews" escribió: > On 6 Aug 2019, at 9:05 am, Mark Tinka wrote: > > > > On 2/Aug/19 14:17, Baldur Norddahl wrote: > >> >> >> The pricing on IPv4 is now at USD 20/address so I am thinking we are >> forced to go the CGN route going forward. Of all the options, MAP-E >> appears to be the most elegant. Just add/remove some more headers on a >> packet and route it as normal. No need to invest in anything as our >> core routers can already do that. No worries about scale. > > Actually, I think NAT64/DNS64/464XLAT is the best option, because as > more IPv4 falls away, you are automatically translating less and going > native IPv6 more. And there is nothing for you to "turn off" or migrate > away from after all is said & done. > > Mark. Which only applies to DNS64 and not 464XLAT. That said, every IPv6 node should be attempting to connect over IPv6 first. That alone moves most of the traffic to IPv6 regardless of the IPv4aaS method in use. DNS64 also breaks DNSSEC which is not a good thing. DNS64 alone also depends on *everybody* having good (complete) IPv6 connectivity and not leaving IPv6 breakages uncorrected. There is no fallback to IPv4 with DNS64 alone. If you also have 464XLAT with DNS64 then there is NO DIFFERENCE to MAP-[ET] or DS-Lite in terms of traffic shifting to native IPv6. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: ma...@isc.org ** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 06:15:36 -, Mel Beckman said: > Not really. The customer provides the content on its own servers. The CDN > simply redistributes the content via temporary caching. Itâs not a web > hosting > provider. The CDN _customer_ hosts the content. That's an... interesting.. interpretation. Most people would see it as the CDN doing the hosting, and the customer *providing* the content to be hosted. Do you also believe that your outbox is hosting the e-mail I'm replying to, and all the MTAs that got involved are just temporary caching? Or did you provide a copy of the mail, and request that the MTAs distribute it? (Also, if the CDN isn't a web hosting provider, why is it able to serve up data on an http connection? Hint - at one time, almost the entire web was static content, and even today a lot of it is file data not javascript and css. ;) pgpiJj70vSHjU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
Eric, Not really. The customer provides the content on its own servers. The CDN simply redistributes the content via temporary caching. It’s not a web hosting provider. The CDN _customer_ hosts the content. -mel beckman On Aug 5, 2019, at 11:09 PM, Eric Kuhnke mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote: A CDN is a hosting company. It is the logical continuation and evolution of what an httpd hosting/server colo company was twenty years ago, but with more geographical scale and a great deal more automation tools. I have never in my life seen a medium to large-sized hosting company that didn't have a ToS reserving the right to discontinue service at any time for arbitrary reasons. On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 7:28 PM Mel Beckman mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote: Valdis, A CDN is very much an ISP. It is providing transport for its customers from arbitrary Internet destinations, to the customer’s content. The caching done by a CDN is incidental to this transport, in accordance with the DMCA. The alternative is that you believe CDNs are not protected by safe Harbor. Is that the case? -mel via cell > On Aug 5, 2019, at 4:02 PM, Valdis Klētnieks > mailto:valdis.kletni...@vt.edu>> wrote: > > On Mon, 05 Aug 2019 20:40:43 -, Mel Beckman said: >> The key misunderstanding on your part is the phrase “on your servers”. ISPs >> acting as conduits do not, by definition (in the DMCA), store anything on >> servers. > > Note that ISPs whose business is 100% "acting as conduits" are in the > minority. > > Hint: The DMCA has the text about data stored on ISP servers because many > ISPs > aren't mere conduits. And this thread got started regarding a CDN, which is > very much > all about storing data on servers. >
Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet
A CDN is a hosting company. It is the logical continuation and evolution of what an httpd hosting/server colo company was twenty years ago, but with more geographical scale and a great deal more automation tools. I have never in my life seen a medium to large-sized hosting company that didn't have a ToS reserving the right to discontinue service at any time for arbitrary reasons. On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 7:28 PM Mel Beckman wrote: > Valdis, > > A CDN is very much an ISP. It is providing transport for its customers > from arbitrary Internet destinations, to the customer’s content. The > caching done by a CDN is incidental to this transport, in accordance with > the DMCA. > > The alternative is that you believe CDNs are not protected by safe Harbor. > Is that the case? > > -mel via cell > > > On Aug 5, 2019, at 4:02 PM, Valdis Klētnieks > wrote: > > > > On Mon, 05 Aug 2019 20:40:43 -, Mel Beckman said: > >> The key misunderstanding on your part is the phrase “on your servers”. > ISPs > >> acting as conduits do not, by definition (in the DMCA), store anything > on > >> servers. > > > > Note that ISPs whose business is 100% "acting as conduits" are in the > minority. > > > > Hint: The DMCA has the text about data stored on ISP servers because > many ISPs > > aren't mere conduits. And this thread got started regarding a CDN, > which is very much > > all about storing data on servers. > > >
