Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List

[Eric Kuhnke]

There is "microtrenching" and then there is microtrenching. Very different
things are sometimes described by the same name. Some of what Google tried
to go was exceedingly shallow, like 4 inches down. Cheap microtrenching
done too quick and too shallow has given the concept a bad name.

There is microtrenched fiber in Vancouver BC that is close to 20 years old
now throughout the downtown core that is nearly problem-free. The
difference is that it is 12+ inches down and was installed using large,
noisy, water cooled diamond-grit concrete saws cutting deep slits into the
joints between streets and curbs, or concrete curbs and sidewalks,  duct
inserted, then backfilled with grouting. It's deep enough where it crosses
roads that re-paving the road by first grinding off the top several inches
of surface is extremely unlikely to disturb the duct.

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 5:17 PM Clayton Zekelman  wrote:

>
> It may.  We don't use it.  Too many freeze/thaw cycles each winter around
> here.  It would get destroyed in a few years.
>
> Google tried to cheap out in Louisville... didn't quite work out
> https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/7/18215743/google-fiber-leaving-louisville-service-ending
> - although that was even more sketchy than traditional microtrenching.
>
> As for rural, the business case becomes even more difficult when you're
> measuring kilometers per home passed instead of homes passed per
> kilometer...
>
> At 07:58 PM 02/02/2023, Kevin Shymkiw wrote:
>
> Clayton,
>
> Did you leverage things like micro trenching for this project?  I may be
> mislead, but I thought micro trenching these days has helped drive the cost
> of doing this down fairly significantly.
>
> Kevin
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 17:56 Clayton Zekelman  wrote:
>
> The cost is not low.  Trust me on that.  I've been involved in a pretty
> massive suburban fibre deployment for the past decade... I expect we'll
> make money sometime in the 2030's... in time for me to retire.
>
> At 12:13 PM 02/02/2023, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
>
> The cost to build physical layer in much of the suburban and somewhat
> rural US is low enough anymore that lots of smaller, independent, ISPs are
> overbuilding the incumbent with fiber and taking a big chunk of their
> customer base because they are local and care.  And making money while
> doing it.Â
>
>
> --
>
> Clayton Zekelman
> Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi)
> 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E
> Windsor, Ontario
> N8W 1H4
>
> tel. 519-985-8410
> fax. 519-985-8409
>

Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List

[Sabri Berisha]

- On Feb 2, 2023, at 4:55 PM, Clayton Zekelman clay...@mnsi.net wrote:

> The cost is not low. Trust me on that. I've been involved in a pretty massive
> suburban fibre deployment for the past decade... 

My neighborhood is currently serviced by coax only. A contractor for Frontier is
digging, as I write this, in front of my home. They use a large Vermeer drill to
pull a conduit underneath the sidewalks. We have existing conduits from the 
street to the homes. 

I talked to the foreman (who is the son of the owner), and he told me that they
get around $100 per foot. That's for the conduit only, not a single fiber 
pulled.

A city inspector comes every day to check up on their work.

Thanks,

Sabri

Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List

[Clayton Zekelman]

It may.  We don't use it.  Too many freeze/thaw 
cycles each winter around here.  It would get destroyed in a few years.


Google tried to cheap out in Louisville... didn't 
quite work out 
https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/7/18215743/google-fiber-leaving-louisville-service-ending 
- although that was even more sketchy than traditional microtrenching.


As for rural, the business case becomes even more 
difficult when you're measuring kilometers per 
home passed instead of homes passed per kilometer...


At 07:58 PM 02/02/2023, Kevin Shymkiw wrote:

Clayton,

Did you leverage things like micro trenching for 
this project?  I may be mislead, but I thought 
micro trenching these days has helped drive the 
cost of doing this down fairly significantly.


Kevin

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 17:56 Clayton Zekelman 
<clay...@mnsi.net> wrote:


The cost is not low.  Trust me on that.  I've 
been involved in a pretty massive suburban fibre 
deployment for the past decade... I expect we'll 
make money sometime in the 2030's... in time for me to retire.


At 12:13 PM 02/02/2023, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
The cost to build physical layer in much of the 
suburban and somewhat rural US is low enough 
anymore that lots of smaller, independent, ISPs 
are overbuilding the incumbent with fiber and 
taking a big chunk of their customer base 
because they are local and care.  And making money while doing it.Â






--

Clayton Zekelman
Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi)
3363 Tecumseh Rd. E
Windsor, Ontario
N8W 1H4

tel. 519-985-8410
fax. 519-985-8409

Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List

[Kevin Shymkiw]

Clayton,

Did you leverage things like micro trenching for this project?  I may be
mislead, but I thought micro trenching these days has helped drive the cost
of doing this down fairly significantly.

Kevin

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 17:56 Clayton Zekelman  wrote:

>
> The cost is not low.  Trust me on that.  I've been involved in a pretty
> massive suburban fibre deployment for the past decade... I expect we'll
> make money sometime in the 2030's... in time for me to retire.
>
> At 12:13 PM 02/02/2023, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
>
> The cost to build physical layer in much of the suburban and somewhat
> rural US is low enough anymore that lots of smaller, independent, ISPs are
> overbuilding the incumbent with fiber and taking a big chunk of their
> customer base because they are local and care.  And making money while
> doing it.Â
>
>
> --
>
> Clayton Zekelman
> Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi)
> 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E
> Windsor, Ontario
> N8W 1H4
>
> tel. 519-985-8410
> fax. 519-985-8409
>

Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List

[Clayton Zekelman]

The cost is not low.  Trust me on that.  I've 
been involved in a pretty massive suburban fibre 
deployment for the past decade... I expect we'll 
make money sometime in the 2030's... in time for me to retire.


At 12:13 PM 02/02/2023, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
The cost to build physical layer in much of the 
suburban and somewhat rural US is low enough 
anymore that lots of smaller, independent, ISPs 
are overbuilding the incumbent with fiber and 
taking a big chunk of their customer base 
because they are local and care.  And making money while doing it.Â





--

Clayton Zekelman
Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi)
3363 Tecumseh Rd. E
Windsor, Ontario
N8W 1H4

tel. 519-985-8410
fax. 519-985-8409

Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List

[Eric Kuhnke]

It might look low cost until you look at a post-1980s suburb in the USA or
Canada where 100% of the utilities are underground. There may be no fiber
or duct routes. Just old coax used for DOCSIS3 owned/run by the local cable
incumbent and copper POTS wiring belonging to the ILEC. The cost to
retrofit such a neighborhood and reach every house with a fiber
architecture can be quite high in construction and labor.



On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 9:14 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> The cost to build physical layer in much of the suburban and somewhat
> rural US is low enough anymore that lots of smaller, independent, ISPs are
> overbuilding the incumbent with fiber and taking a big chunk of their
> customer base because they are local and care.  And making money while
> doing it.
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2023, 8:22 AM Masataka Ohta <
> mo...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> wrote:
>
>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>
>> > I selfishly hope they don't because that's where independent
>> > operators will succeed. ;-)
>>
>> Because of natural regional monopoly at physical layer (cabling
>> cost for a certain region is same between competitors but their
>> revenues are proportional to their regional market shares), they
>> can't succeed unless the physical layer is regulated to be
>> unbundled, which is hard with PON.
>>
>> But, in US where regional telephone network has been operated
>> by, unlike Europe/Japan, a private company enjoying natural
>> regional monopoly, economic situation today should be no worse
>> than that at that time.
>>
>> Masataka Ohta
>>
>

Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

The cost to build physical layer in much of the suburban and somewhat rural
US is low enough anymore that lots of smaller, independent, ISPs are
overbuilding the incumbent with fiber and taking a big chunk of their
customer base because they are local and care.  And making money while
doing it.


On Thu, Feb 2, 2023, 8:22 AM Masataka Ohta 
wrote:

> Mike Hammett wrote:
>
> > I selfishly hope they don't because that's where independent
> > operators will succeed. ;-)
>
> Because of natural regional monopoly at physical layer (cabling
> cost for a certain region is same between competitors but their
> revenues are proportional to their regional market shares), they
> can't succeed unless the physical layer is regulated to be
> unbundled, which is hard with PON.
>
> But, in US where regional telephone network has been operated
> by, unlike Europe/Japan, a private company enjoying natural
> regional monopoly, economic situation today should be no worse
> than that at that time.
>
> Masataka Ohta
>

Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List

[Masataka Ohta]

Mike Hammett wrote:


I selfishly hope they don't because that's where independent
operators will succeed. ;-)


Because of natural regional monopoly at physical layer (cabling
cost for a certain region is same between competitors but their
revenues are proportional to their regional market shares), they
can't succeed unless the physical layer is regulated to be
unbundled, which is hard with PON.

But, in US where regional telephone network has been operated
by, unlike Europe/Japan, a private company enjoying natural
regional monopoly, economic situation today should be no worse
than that at that time.

Masataka Ohta

Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List

[Mike Hammett]

I selfishly hope they don't because that's where independent operators will 
succeed. ;-) 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Eric Kuhnke"  
To: "Gabriel Kuri"  
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 4:18:46 PM 
Subject: Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List 



I think that this really says more about the race to the bottom in last mile 
residential operations. 


It seems inevitable that once a last mile residential broadband operator grows 
to a certain gargantuan size, the quality of the network suffers and nobody 
really cares to take ownership of specific local problems. 


I've seen it many times looking at infrastructure of probably a dozen different 
last mile operators in many different states and provinces. 



And do you know what's commonly found in the same places as stuff like garbage 
bag wrapped pedestals and coax temp-run between cans for months or years at a 
time? Employees who feel pressured to do cheap/shoddy/fast work and move on to 
the next ticket. Or workers doing these tasks who aren't employees at all but 
piece work 1099 workers under a subcontract or a subcontractor-of-a-contractor. 
It's not a good situation for the rank and file workers either. Go find the 
worker who eventually fixes that temp-run coax job and see if he's really happy 
with his job. 



I wish that the people running the networks at residential last mile operators 
with many hundreds of thousands up to dozens of millions of CPEs would push 
back against efforts from executives/management to participate in this race to 
the bottom of cost and network quality. It's too easy to hand wave away the 
problem and be like "oh, but the middle mile fiber aggregation router and core 
links in and out of this market look fine, that's somebody else's problem to 
deal with the field work...". 










On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 1:36 PM Gabriel Kuri via NANOG < nanog@nanog.org > 
wrote: 





Could someone from Spectrum who deals with the HFC infrastructure in Southern 
California, specifically the legacy Time Warner Cable area, contact me off list 
? 


Apparently the local infrastructure crew thinks it's OK to leave cable running 
between two cans in a residential neighborhood since at least July 2022. But 
it's OK, because they've cautioned them off with orange cones, right ? 



Multiple calls to regular customer service fall on deaf ears about a coax trunk 
cable run above ground on a street and sidewalk in the middle of a residential 
neighborhood. 



Customer service says, "We don't know what you're talking about, we don't have 
cables running on the street". Can't seem to get a hold of the right people to 
come out and get it buried and get rid of the eyesore and safety hazard ... 



image1.jpg



image2.jpg


Thanks, 
Gabe