Re: CPE/NID options

[Saku Ytti]

On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 at 21:45, Josh Luthman 
wrote:

Can you have an ethernet switch with dying gasp?
> Our ONTs (Calix, PON) have it but I don't see how you'd do it with
> ethernet.
>

At least via efm-oam you can have a dying gasp.

You could probably add it to autonegotiation, by sending some symbol. There
is already something similar in autonegotiation, like autonegotiation can
inform the far end, when it is locally shutdown. That is, if I have A-B
link, and B does 'shutdown' on the interface, A could emit syslog 'far-end
administratively down'. This is supported by many common PHYs, but for some
reason I've never seen software implementation.
Of course this same thing 'admin down', could be abused by sending it
always when you know you are going down. So an adventurous operator who
controls their environment could add this today with just code.

-- 
  ++ytti

Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference

[owen--- via NANOG]

> On Nov 27, 2023, at 11:45, Andy Ringsmuth  wrote:
> 
> That’s exactly what I did. I was able to get a 3/4 conduit from my furnace 
> room/network closet to the exterior of my home where utilities enter. It took 
> some doing but I got it in, terminated in a NEMA box.

Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, 
it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.

Owen

Re: ACX7100 Woes - Operator Outreach -

[Aaron1]

ACX7100-48L
…or…
ACX7100-32C
?

Aaron

> On Nov 27, 2023, at 3:59 PM, Edwin Mallette  wrote:
> 
> 
> In attempting to operationalize the ACX7100 I have run into quite a few 
> challenges with the platform once I stray outside of traditional routing and 
> switching.  The EVPN instances seem to have quite a few caveats and things 
> like CFM and RFC2544 traffic generation.  Many of the show commands don't 
> seem to work, many of the counters either don't work or update slowly (like I 
> run the command to show CFM messages and it says it sent 100 then I run it 
> again a couple seconds later and it says 1 sent then a couple seconds 
> later it says 100 sent) this with a periodicity of 1 message per second.
> 
> Oh and the latest is that our original OEM QSFPs just disappear.  As in they 
> not only stop working but the chassis no longer sees them.  I guess I'm just 
> reaching out to see if I'm all alone in my struggles...
> 
> Warm Regards and happy Monday after Thanksgiving,
> 
> Ed

ACX7100 Woes - Operator Outreach -

[Edwin Mallette]

In attempting to operationalize the ACX7100 I have run into quite a few
challenges with the platform once I stray outside of traditional routing
and switching.  The EVPN instances seem to have quite a few caveats and
things like CFM and RFC2544 traffic generation.  Many of the show commands
don't seem to work, many of the counters either don't work or update slowly
(like I run the command to show CFM messages and it says it sent 100 then I
run it again a couple seconds later and it says 1 sent then a couple
seconds later it says 100 sent) this with a periodicity of 1 message
per second.

Oh and the latest is that our original OEM QSFPs just disappear.  As in
they not only stop working but the chassis no longer sees them.  I guess
I'm just reaching out to see if I'm all alone in my struggles...

Warm Regards and happy Monday after Thanksgiving,

Ed

Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference

[Andy Ringsmuth]

That’s exactly what I did. I was able to get a 3/4 conduit from my furnace 
room/network closet to the exterior of my home where utilities enter. It took 
some doing but I got it in, terminated in a NEMA box.

When we got fiber a few years ago, the installer told me it was the easiest 
install he’s ever done.

In that conduit I have fiber, coax, one Cat6 and also a sprinkler wire 
(whomever built my home had sprinklers put in the back yard but not the front, 
but I took care of that oversight).


Andy Ringsmuth
5609 Harding Drive
Lincoln, NE 68521-5831
(402) 202-1230
a...@andyring.com

“A private central bank issuing the public currency is a greater menace to the 
liberties of the people than a standing army. We must not let our rulers load 
us with perpetual debt.” -Thomas Jefferson

> On Nov 27, 2023, at 8:12 AM, Josh Luthman  wrote:
> 
> If I was building a house I'd just get some 1" conduit from the outside to 
> the inside.  Put it in a NEMA box.  That solves the problem forever.
> 
> As a fiber ISP, and assuming you're doing your own WiFi in the house, you can 
> do conduit inside or we can just run the fiber.  We don't want to run up/down 
> walls and such.  99% of our installs are through the exterior wall and then a 
> u6x covers the house.  We run fiber 
> 
> If you're in a cableCo area just run coax to get to your modem/router 
> situation.
> 
> I'm not sure what the Cat5 is for outside.  Ethernet isn't going to work and 
> DSL is nearly dead already. 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 24, 2023 at 2:33 PM Sean Donelan  wrote:
> Thanks Brandon Martin,
> 
> I agree 1-inch smurf tube is overkill for FTTH. From my quick research 
> into all things FTTH, which I didn't know anything a week ago :-) ...
> 
> The regulators in other countries still believe they will create 
> competition.  The 25mm/32mm access duct (I'm going to make up a new 
> term, and just call it "access duct", i.e. that smurf tube, conduit, 
> pathway thing) is big enough for either a fiber microduct, cat 6 copper 
> or RG6 coax.  Even a 12/24/48-volt DC power cable for active 
> equipment at the NID/demarc.  The regulators keep all their competitors 
> happy by not favoring any particular technology.
> 
> In practice, the countries with the biggest FTTH deployments have very 
> little FTTH competition at the physical access layer.
> 
> Microduct, microduct, microduct is what the dominant access provider 
> wants in those countries.  The dominant carrier wants builders to install 
> "direct fiber" or "bypass fiber" microducts in new construction directly 
> from every dwelling (house or apartment) to the carrier's central access 
> point for the builder's development (apartment buildings or neighborhood).
> 
> Microduct only means no pre-built access for other competitors.
> 
> Apartment construction in Asia is very large. Several countries are 
> also adding in-building mobile/wireless service requirements for new MDU 
> building construction.
> 
> 
> My interpretation, not understanding the country-specific FTTH fights...
> 
> The regulators appear to say, Ok, dominant carrier - you can have 
> "direct fiber" microduct but builders must also provide an "open 
> competition" 25mm/32mm access duct from the building entrance point (NID) 
> or apartment consolidation points (CP) to the individual distribution box 
> (DD) inside each dwelling.
> 
> Just my uninformed take, corrections welcome.

Re: CPE/NID options

[Josh Luthman]

Can you have an ethernet switch with dying gasp?

Our ONTs (Calix, PON) have it but I don't see how you'd do it with ethernet.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 11:25 AM Tom Samplonius  wrote:

>
>   Adva, RAD, and Telco Systems are all good NID options.
>
>   You can go with just any switch, but “proper” NIDs have dying gasp.  If
> the NID is going on a customer premise, I consider dying gasp a must.  The
> dying gasp allows your NOC to determine the difference between a network
> break and fiber cut.
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> On Nov 27, 2023, at 6:41 AM, Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
> Around here, Spectrum uses an Adva for demarc and it can not do rfc2544
> testing.  They will unplug the Adva and plug in the techs' mobile unit
> (Viavi I think).  VZW/Tmo/Sprint/etc don't seem to mind.
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 9:34 AM Ryan Hamel  wrote:
>
>> The problem with using switches as a CPE device is the lack of RFC2544
>> (or equivalent) testing, and monitoring of the complete circuit with TWAMP.
>> Both of which are used to ensure compliance with an SLA.
>>
>> Ryan Hamel
>>
>> --
>> *From:* NANOG  on behalf of
>> Josh Luthman 
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2023 6:14 AM
>> *To:* Christopher Hawker 
>> *Cc:* North American Network Operators' Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: CPE/NID options
>>
>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take
>> care when clicking links or opening attachments.
>>
>> When you say fiber, is it Ethernet?  If you just want layer 2 and a media
>> converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19 AM Christopher Hawker 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ross,
>>
>> I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:
>>
>> CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages,
>> rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack.
>> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
>> CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant
>> power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management.
>> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
>> CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper
>> ethernet port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors.
>> https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9
>>
>> MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably.
>> If you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Christopher Hawker
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* NANOG  on behalf
>> of Ross Tajvar 
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
>> *To:* North American Network Operators' Group 
>> *Subject:* CPE/NID options
>>
>> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently,
>> we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and
>> extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands
>> in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>>
>> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I
>> like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's
>> passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally,
>> etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the
>> controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for
>> us.
>>
>> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a
>> recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not
>> necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be
>> ideal.
>>
>> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else
>> to call it.
>>
>>
>

Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference

[Brandon Martin]

On 11/27/2023 09:12, Josh Luthman wrote:
If I was building a house I'd just get some 1" conduit from the outside 
to the inside.  Put it in a NEMA box.  That solves the problem forever.


1" is great if you can get it, and I'd try to argue for it.  I'd settle 
for 3/4"


Builders and resi electricians are going to hate 1".  It's not something 
they'll stock nor is it readily available at cheeeap prices that they 
seek.  3/4" ENT is available fairly cheap, and the electricians are 
going to have a hole hog big enough for it which they may not have for 
1" if they're truly resi-only.  I can see the adder for 1" being 
eye-rolling as a result.


As a fiber ISP, and assuming you're doing your own WiFi in the house, 
you can do conduit inside or we can just run the fiber.  We don't want 
to run up/down walls and such.  99% of our installs are through the 
exterior wall and then a u6x covers the house.  We run fiber


Same.  I don't expect to find a house pre-wired with suitable fiber from 
the outside utility access area to the inside distribution point.  I'll 
use it if it's there, but the only time I've ever had that happen is 
when I've managed to hand the builder (or, more likely, the electrical 
contractor themselves) a spool of fiber during construction.  Usually 
this is only on custom and semi-custom homes.  Tract home electricians 
aren't going to do ANYTHING outside their SOW.


Most large fiber ISPs won't use existing fiber even if it's there and 
suitable.  They don't trust it, and it's not "standard" for them. 
Occasionally the install techs may bend the rules.


When I'm running fiber for a customer, anything more than "rise up from 
the ground and poke it through the wall" is getting into "premium 
installation with upcharge" territory.  Nobody wants to pay for it. 
Most other fiber ISPs seem similar.


If you're in a cableCo area just run coax to get to your modem/router 
situation.


Agreed.  In theory they could also use suitable fiber for RFoG if 
they've got such a deployment in the area.  I'm not aware of any 
standards for such prewires, and like above I doubt they'd want to use 
it even if it were present.  All of the MSOs I know of doing RFoG to the 
home put a micro-nid outdoors and reverse power it over coax from 
inside.  Fiber doesn't enter the home itself.


I'm not sure what the Cat5 is for outside.  Ethernet isn't going to work 
and DSL is nearly dead already.


I suspect the relevant ANSI standard is just old and dates back to 
POTS+DSL.  CAT6 is great for VDSL and G.FAST, and a standard cable gives 
you 4 pairs to work with and is cheap and fairly tolerant of abuse 
during install.


I would love to see the relevant standard updated to include e.g. a 
duplex or 6-count tight buffered or breakout single-mode fiber cable.


--
Brandon Martin

Re: Generally accepted BGP acceptance criteria?

[Tom Samplonius]

> On Nov 21, 2023, at 7:42 AM, Dale W. Carder  wrote:
> 
> Thus spake Tom Samplonius (t...@samplonius.org) on Mon, Nov 20, 2023 at 
> 07:02:52PM -0800:
>>> On Nov 17, 2023, at 6:58 AM, Christopher Morrow  
>>> wrote:
>>> IRR filters provide control over whom is provided reachability through
>>> a particular peering/path.
>> 
>>  How does that work?  IRR import: and export: parameters are poorly 
>> implemented.  Is anyone actually validating more than the origin with IRR?
> 
> I think "validating" is the wrong verb for IRR.  "Provisioning" may
> be more accurate.  
> 
> As an example, my AS293 peers with AS6509.  In the AS-SET that they
> publish, AS6509:AS-CANARIE, the "members:" field for instance lists
> AS271:AS-BCNET-MEMBERS which then lists AS271 in it's members.  An
> inverse query to an IRR whois server from such a tool as 'bgpq4' walks
> this tree to generate a list of prefixes applicable to in effect, a
> given path presuming you know what IRR object to start with.  That is
> where import/export typically comes into play.

  I get the data structure, but are there are any tools that implement the 
above and allow paths to be validated?


...
> Dale


Tom

Re: CPE/NID options

[Tom Samplonius]

  Adva, RAD, and Telco Systems are all good NID options.

  You can go with just any switch, but “proper” NIDs have dying gasp.  If the 
NID is going on a customer premise, I consider dying gasp a must.  The dying 
gasp allows your NOC to determine the difference between a network break and 
fiber cut.


Tom



> On Nov 27, 2023, at 6:41 AM, Josh Luthman  wrote:
> 
> Around here, Spectrum uses an Adva for demarc and it can not do rfc2544 
> testing.  They will unplug the Adva and plug in the techs' mobile unit (Viavi 
> I think).  VZW/Tmo/Sprint/etc don't seem to mind.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 9:34 AM Ryan Hamel  > wrote:
>> The problem with using switches as a CPE device is the lack of RFC2544 (or 
>> equivalent) testing, and monitoring of the complete circuit with TWAMP. Both 
>> of which are used to ensure compliance with an SLA.
>> 
>> Ryan Hamel
>> 
>> From: NANOG > > on behalf of Josh Luthman 
>> mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
>> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2023 6:14 AM
>> To: Christopher Hawker mailto:ch...@thesysadmin.au>>
>> Cc: North American Network Operators' Group > >
>> Subject: Re: CPE/NID options
>>  
>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care 
>> when clicking links or opening attachments.
>> 
>> When you say fiber, is it Ethernet?  If you just want layer 2 and a media 
>> converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.
>> 
>> On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19 AM Christopher Hawker > > wrote:
>> Hi Ross,
>> 
>> I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:
>> 
>> CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages, 
>> rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack. 
>> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
>> CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant 
>> power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management. 
>> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
>> CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet 
>> port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors. 
>> https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9
>> 
>> MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably. If 
>> you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Christopher Hawker
>> 
>> 
>> From: NANOG > > on behalf of Ross Tajvar > >
>> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
>> To: North American Network Operators' Group > >
>> Subject: CPE/NID options
>>  
>> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently, we're 
>> terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and 
>> extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands in 
>> a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>> 
>> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I like 
>> the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's passively 
>> cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally, etc. 
>> Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the 
>> controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for 
>> us.
>> 
>> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a 
>> recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not 
>> necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be 
>> ideal.
>> 
>> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else to 
>> call it.

Re: CPE/NID options

[Ryan Hamel]

For those carriers that do not mind, they have already accepted the cost that 
comes to a truck roll and may pass the cost onto the customer depending on the 
result. Where as there are a number of carriers like Cogent, Colt, Comcast, 
Cox, Crown Castle, Lumen, Zayo, are capable of testing the circuit without a 
truck roll.

Ryan Hamel


From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2023 6:41 AM
To: Ryan Hamel 
Cc: Christopher Hawker ; North American Network 
Operators' Group 
Subject: Re: CPE/NID options

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when 
clicking links or opening attachments.

Around here, Spectrum uses an Adva for demarc and it can not do rfc2544 
testing.  They will unplug the Adva and plug in the techs' mobile unit (Viavi I 
think).  VZW/Tmo/Sprint/etc don't seem to mind.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 9:34 AM Ryan Hamel 
mailto:r...@rkhtech.org>> wrote:
The problem with using switches as a CPE device is the lack of RFC2544 (or 
equivalent) testing, and monitoring of the complete circuit with TWAMP. Both of 
which are used to ensure compliance with an SLA.

Ryan Hamel


From: NANOG 
mailto:rkhtech@nanog.org>> on 
behalf of Josh Luthman 
mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2023 6:14 AM
To: Christopher Hawker mailto:ch...@thesysadmin.au>>
Cc: North American Network Operators' Group 
mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Re: CPE/NID options

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when 
clicking links or opening attachments.

When you say fiber, is it Ethernet?  If you just want layer 2 and a media 
converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.

On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19 AM Christopher Hawker 
mailto:ch...@thesysadmin.au>> wrote:
Hi Ross,

I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:

CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages, 
rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack. 
https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant power, 
1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management. 
https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port 
for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors. 
https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9

MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably. If 
you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.

Regards,
Christopher Hawker



From: NANOG 
mailto:thesysadmin...@nanog.org>> 
on behalf of Ross Tajvar mailto:r...@tajvar.io>>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
To: North American Network Operators' Group 
mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: CPE/NID options

I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently, we're 
terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and extending 
it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands in a Juniper 
EX2200 or EX2300.

At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I like the 
ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's passively cooled, 
it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally, etc. Unfortunately, 
when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the controller (which is 
required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for us.

I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a 
recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not 
necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be 
ideal.

*I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else to 
call it.

Re: CPE/NID options

[Josh Luthman]

Around here, Spectrum uses an Adva for demarc and it can not do rfc2544
testing.  They will unplug the Adva and plug in the techs' mobile unit
(Viavi I think).  VZW/Tmo/Sprint/etc don't seem to mind.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 9:34 AM Ryan Hamel  wrote:

> The problem with using switches as a CPE device is the lack of RFC2544 (or
> equivalent) testing, and monitoring of the complete circuit with TWAMP.
> Both of which are used to ensure compliance with an SLA.
>
> Ryan Hamel
>
> --
> *From:* NANOG  on behalf of
> Josh Luthman 
> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2023 6:14 AM
> *To:* Christopher Hawker 
> *Cc:* North American Network Operators' Group 
> *Subject:* Re: CPE/NID options
>
> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care
> when clicking links or opening attachments.
>
> When you say fiber, is it Ethernet?  If you just want layer 2 and a media
> converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.
>
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19 AM Christopher Hawker 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Ross,
>
> I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:
>
> CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages,
> rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack.
> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
> CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant
> power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management.
> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
> CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet
> port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors.
> https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9
>
> MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably.
> If you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.
>
> Regards,
> Christopher Hawker
>
>
> --
> *From:* NANOG  on behalf of
> Ross Tajvar 
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
> *To:* North American Network Operators' Group 
> *Subject:* CPE/NID options
>
> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently,
> we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and
> extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands
> in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>
> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I
> like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's
> passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally,
> etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the
> controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for
> us.
>
> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a
> recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not
> necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be
> ideal.
>
> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else
> to call it.
>
>

Re: CPE/NID options

[Ryan Hamel]

The problem with using switches as a CPE device is the lack of RFC2544 (or 
equivalent) testing, and monitoring of the complete circuit with TWAMP. Both of 
which are used to ensure compliance with an SLA.

Ryan Hamel


From: NANOG  on behalf of Josh 
Luthman 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2023 6:14 AM
To: Christopher Hawker 
Cc: North American Network Operators' Group 
Subject: Re: CPE/NID options

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when 
clicking links or opening attachments.

When you say fiber, is it Ethernet?  If you just want layer 2 and a media 
converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.

On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19 AM Christopher Hawker 
mailto:ch...@thesysadmin.au>> wrote:
Hi Ross,

I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:

CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages, 
rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack. 
https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant power, 
1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management. 
https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port 
for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors. 
https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9

MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably. If 
you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.

Regards,
Christopher Hawker



From: NANOG 
mailto:thesysadmin...@nanog.org>> 
on behalf of Ross Tajvar mailto:r...@tajvar.io>>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
To: North American Network Operators' Group 
mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: CPE/NID options

I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently, we're 
terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and extending 
it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands in a Juniper 
EX2200 or EX2300.

At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I like the 
ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's passively cooled, 
it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally, etc. Unfortunately, 
when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the controller (which is 
required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for us.

I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a 
recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not 
necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be 
ideal.

*I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else to 
call it.

Re: CPE/NID options

[Josh Luthman]

When you say fiber, is it Ethernet?  If you just want layer 2 and a media
converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.

On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19 AM Christopher Hawker 
wrote:

> Hi Ross,
>
> I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:
>
> CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages,
> rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack.
> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
> CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant
> power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management.
> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
> CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet
> port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors.
> https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9
>
> MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably.
> If you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.
>
> Regards,
> Christopher Hawker
>
>
> --
> *From:* NANOG  on behalf of
> Ross Tajvar 
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
> *To:* North American Network Operators' Group 
> *Subject:* CPE/NID options
>
> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently,
> we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and
> extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands
> in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>
> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I
> like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's
> passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally,
> etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the
> controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for
> us.
>
> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a
> recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not
> necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be
> ideal.
>
> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else
> to call it.
>

Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference

[Josh Luthman]

If I was building a house I'd just get some 1" conduit from the outside to
the inside.  Put it in a NEMA box.  That solves the problem forever.

As a fiber ISP, and assuming you're doing your own WiFi in the house, you
can do conduit inside or we can just run the fiber.  We don't want to run
up/down walls and such.  99% of our installs are through the exterior wall
and then a u6x covers the house.  We run fiber

If you're in a cableCo area just run coax to get to your modem/router
situation.

I'm not sure what the Cat5 is for outside.  Ethernet isn't going to work
and DSL is nearly dead already.

On Fri, Nov 24, 2023 at 2:33 PM Sean Donelan  wrote:

> Thanks Brandon Martin,
>
> I agree 1-inch smurf tube is overkill for FTTH. From my quick research
> into all things FTTH, which I didn't know anything a week ago :-) ...
>
> The regulators in other countries still believe they will create
> competition.  The 25mm/32mm access duct (I'm going to make up a new
> term, and just call it "access duct", i.e. that smurf tube, conduit,
> pathway thing) is big enough for either a fiber microduct, cat 6 copper
> or RG6 coax.  Even a 12/24/48-volt DC power cable for active
> equipment at the NID/demarc.  The regulators keep all their competitors
> happy by not favoring any particular technology.
>
> In practice, the countries with the biggest FTTH deployments have very
> little FTTH competition at the physical access layer.
>
> Microduct, microduct, microduct is what the dominant access provider
> wants in those countries.  The dominant carrier wants builders to install
> "direct fiber" or "bypass fiber" microducts in new construction directly
> from every dwelling (house or apartment) to the carrier's central access
> point for the builder's development (apartment buildings or neighborhood).
>
> Microduct only means no pre-built access for other competitors.
>
> Apartment construction in Asia is very large. Several countries are
> also adding in-building mobile/wireless service requirements for new MDU
> building construction.
>
>
> My interpretation, not understanding the country-specific FTTH fights...
>
> The regulators appear to say, Ok, dominant carrier - you can have
> "direct fiber" microduct but builders must also provide an "open
> competition" 25mm/32mm access duct from the building entrance point (NID)
> or apartment consolidation points (CP) to the individual distribution box
> (DD) inside each dwelling.
>
> Just my uninformed take, corrections welcome.
>