Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Owen DeLong]

> On Jan 2, 2018, at 19:10 , Randy Bush  wrote:
> 
> if AS numbers are unused, what operational difference does it make?
> 
> but if you have the gloves and long forceps needed to deal with the rir
> policy , then there is a real need for inter-region AS transfer.
> 
> randy

Why?

Seriously asking, not trying to be confrontational.

I understand some people want it, but I’m trying to understand the actual 
“need” vs. want.

Owen

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Owen DeLong]

Steve’s situation was relatively unique and arduous. It was also resolved
several years ago.

Yes, if you have difficulty authenticating as a legitimate administrator of
the resource, it can be difficult to convince ARIN you should be updating
the contact data on said resource. Hopefully everyone here can see how that
is a desirable thing. I’m quite glad that ARIN makes it difficult for people
who aren’t me to update my resource records.

As to the issue raised regarding unused ASNs, there are several possibilities
not yet considered IMHO:

1.  There were private networks built before private ASNs existed.
2.  There were private networks built that needed ASN coordination
and include more ASNs than there were private 16-bit ASNs.
3.  While private ASNs may be a solution for some private networks,
there are other cases where they may not be well suited. Such
cases can legitimately use public ASNs.
4.  NO single view, nor even any collection of views available to
any one entity can be considered a complete routing table for
the entire internet.

Are there ASNs that were issued prior to the creation of ARIN that may languish?
Yes. Probably a few thousand.

All ASNs issued since the creation of ARIN come with an annual fee being paid to
ARIN which means that the ASN isn’t languishing unless someone is paying the fee
for the ASN and/or related resources each year. So in the case of companies that
no longer exist, if you report your suspicions to ARIN, they’ll investigate and
reclaim the ASNs if they can be certain that the organizations are no longer
valid. In the case of ASNs issued in the last 20 years, that’s as easy as 
checking
that the invoice got paid by someone. ASNs issued prior to 1997 are a much 
harder
problem to solve.

Personally, I don’t think there’s enough value to the community in a few 
thousand
ASNs to make it worth the cost involved in ARIN going out and reclaiming them
aggressively. A few years ago, we added 4,294,901,760 ASNs to the original pool
of 65,536 ASNs. (This includes both public and private in both cases). None of
those 4 billion new ASNs will languish as they are all issued under an annual 
fee.

As such, I see little or no value in trying to reclaim the few thousand ASNs 
that
might be subject to such a policy.

Owen

> On Jan 3, 2018, at 07:12 , Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> I updated all applicable records for a new client in the past month. Didn't 
> seem that difficult. *shrugs* 
> 
> I did have control of the email server for the domain in the POCs, though. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - 
> Mike Hammett 
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> http://www.ics-il.com 
> 
> Midwest-IX 
> http://www.midwest-ix.com 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Steve Noble"  
> To: nanog@nanog.org 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 5:11:57 PM 
> Subject: Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time 
> 
> Inaccurate whois data from ARIN is not a good way to tell anything as 
> ARIN is terrible to deal with when you need to update an address or 
> phone number or anything. I know personally as I had to fight for years 
> to update the data on an ASN that ARIN was billing me to manage the data 
> for. 
> 
>> Chris Adams  
>> January 2, 2018 at 2:56 PM 
>> 
>> I know of two (from a former job) that pre-date ARIN that haven't been 
>> used since 1999 because those two companies no longer exist (nor AFAIK 
>> does any successor company). The whois information is bogus at this 
>> point, but I couldn't prove that. 
>> 
>> I expect that AS numbers allocated by ARIN and other current RIRs are 
>> not abandoned like that (since they charge annual fees, and I assume 
>> they reclaim for non-payment), so the number of abandoned AS numbers is 
>> probably not growing significantly (and would not grow beyond the 
>> pre-RIR pool). 
>> 
>> With 32 bit AS numbers though, what's the point of making an effort to 
>> reclaim the old AS numbers? BGP4 has been shown to handle alternate 
>> length AS numbers, so if somehow 4 billion are allocated, it probably 
>> won't be a big deal to extend BGP again. 
>> 
>> James Breeden  
>> January 2, 2018 at 2:46 PM 
>> Before I take this to the ARIN PPML, wanted to get NANOG's thoughts. 
>> 
>> 
>> I'm amazed at the number of AS numbers that are assigned, but not 
>> actively being used. I'm not talking just like they are offline for a 
>> week or month, this is complete non-use of the AS in the global 
>> routing table within *years*. They are completely abandoned resources 
>> - Whois data is inaccurate by 5-10 years, no routeviews data in the 
>> same time period, the owning organization (if you can find it) 
>> scratches their heads about responding whether they use it or not, etc. 
>> 
>> 
>> I know we're currently not in a push to get AS numbers 

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[William Herrin]

On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 2:16 AM, Jimmy Hess  wrote:

> EXISTING  number resources in ARIN region in particular are serviced under
> the RSA contract that include terms specifically informs the end user that
> ARIN is disclaiming itself from having any ability  or authority to
> revoke any unused resources or cancel any services for lack of use.
>

Hi Jimmy,

That's not entirely correct. In this case there are two groups of AS
numbers held by ARIN:

1. AS numbers held under a registration services agreement. ARIN has annual
contact with these organizations in the form of a bill which, if they don't
pay, eventually results in deregistration of the resource. No change to
policy or process is necessary for this to happen.

2. Legacy AS numbers assigned by the registrars that existed prior to ARIN.
ARIN asserts that they have the authority to deregister these resources,
but the legal situation is murky. No explicit contract covering those AS
numbers exists between ARIN and the registrants.

ARIN's authority to refuse action outside of a contract has been only
weakly tested in court: all cases were settled prior to the court ruling or
the court ruled on some basis other than ARIN's authority over number
resources. For example, the Nortel case was settled when Microsoft agreed
to sign a negotiated contract with ARIN while the Kremen case was thrown
out based on the statute of limitations: he waited too long after ARIN's
refusal to sue.

ARIN's authority to act absent a contract has never been tested in court.

And in fact ARIN has never unilaterally deregistered a legacy resource.

Practically speaking, this means that any action to revoke allegedly
abandoned legacy resources places ARIN at legal risk. The prospective gain
from such action would have to exceed the risk.

Regards,
Bill Herrin





-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Mike Hammett]

I updated all applicable records for a new client in the past month. Didn't 
seem that difficult. *shrugs* 

I did have control of the email server for the domain in the POCs, though. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Steve Noble"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 5:11:57 PM 
Subject: Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time 

Inaccurate whois data from ARIN is not a good way to tell anything as 
ARIN is terrible to deal with when you need to update an address or 
phone number or anything. I know personally as I had to fight for years 
to update the data on an ASN that ARIN was billing me to manage the data 
for. 

> Chris Adams  
> January 2, 2018 at 2:56 PM 
> 
> I know of two (from a former job) that pre-date ARIN that haven't been 
> used since 1999 because those two companies no longer exist (nor AFAIK 
> does any successor company). The whois information is bogus at this 
> point, but I couldn't prove that. 
> 
> I expect that AS numbers allocated by ARIN and other current RIRs are 
> not abandoned like that (since they charge annual fees, and I assume 
> they reclaim for non-payment), so the number of abandoned AS numbers is 
> probably not growing significantly (and would not grow beyond the 
> pre-RIR pool). 
> 
> With 32 bit AS numbers though, what's the point of making an effort to 
> reclaim the old AS numbers? BGP4 has been shown to handle alternate 
> length AS numbers, so if somehow 4 billion are allocated, it probably 
> won't be a big deal to extend BGP again. 
> 
> James Breeden  
> January 2, 2018 at 2:46 PM 
> Before I take this to the ARIN PPML, wanted to get NANOG's thoughts. 
> 
> 
> I'm amazed at the number of AS numbers that are assigned, but not 
> actively being used. I'm not talking just like they are offline for a 
> week or month, this is complete non-use of the AS in the global 
> routing table within *years*. They are completely abandoned resources 
> - Whois data is inaccurate by 5-10 years, no routeviews data in the 
> same time period, the owning organization (if you can find it) 
> scratches their heads about responding whether they use it or not, etc. 
> 
> 
> I know we're currently not in a push to get AS numbers or close to 
> exhaustion, but I do believe that people who have global AS numbers 
> should have a requirement to use them or return them to the global 
> pool. Am I the only one thinking this? 
> 
> 
> And before you come back with "Well they may be using it internally 
> where it doesn't need to be in the GRT" - that's why we have Private 
> AS numbers. 
> 
> 
> I.e. some form of ARIN or global policy that basically says "If AS 
> number not routed or whois updated or used in 24 months, said AS 
> number can be public noticed via mailing list and website and then 
> revoked and reissued to a pending, approved AS request" 
> 
> 
> Just thinking aloud. Happy New Year all! 
> 
> 
> James W. Breeden 
> 
> Managing Partner 
> 
> 
> 
> [logo_transparent_background] 
> 
> Arenal Group: Arenal Consulting Group | Acilis Telecom | Pines Media 
> 
> PO Box 1063 | Smithville, TX 78957 
> 
> Email: ja...@arenalgroup.co | office 
> 512.360. | cell 512.304.0745 | 
> www.arenalgroup.co 

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Jimmy Hess]

On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 4:46 PM, James Breeden  wrote:


> I.e. some form of ARIN or global policy that basically says "If AS number
> not routed or whois updated or used in 24 months, said AS number can be
> public noticed via mailing list and website and then revoked and reissued
> to a pending, approved AS request"
>

Why?   What is the justification for a  reclamation project?
Besides this is  Outside the purview, scope, or powers that RIRs/
ARIN in particular have put into their public policy development process.
of.

Number resource policies govern management regarding
number resources:  allocation, assignment,  and transfer.

Policies are not able to set fees or conditions on any existing services.
Revoking an unused resource would require a condition on
existing services that cannot be defined by a number resource policy.

EXISTING  number resources in ARIN region in particular are serviced under
the RSA contract that include terms specifically informs the end user that
ARIN is disclaiming itself from having any ability  or authority to
revoke any unused resources or cancel any services for lack of use.

> "ARIN will take no action to reduce the Services currently provided for
Included Number Resources due to lack of utilization by the Holder, and
(ii) ARIN has no right to revoke any included Number Resources under
this Agreement due to lack of utilization by Holder.

However, ARIN may refuse to permit transfers or additional allocations of
number resources to Holder if Holder’s included Number Resources are not
utilized in accordance with Policy."


I'm amazed at the number of AS numbers that are assigned, but not actively
> being used.

"Actively being used"   is determined only by the resource holder.

And before you come back with "Well they may be using it internally

where it doesn't need to be in the GRT" - that's why we have Private AS
> numbers.
>

It is a valid technical decision to use AS numbers internally,  and
there are reasons  Not to use the small pool of available  Private AS
numbers,

Even  if the private AS numbers  might be available for some legitimate use
cases;
there is no reason to favor them when privately interconnecting networks
across multiple organizations or policy domains, and it is perfectly valid
to
maintain uniquely-registered AS numbers for such internal purposes.


--
-JH

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Julien Goodwin]

Internet Exchange route servers would be another case that would appear
unused to the broader internet, but shouldn't use a private ASN.

On 03/01/18 14:40, Christopher Morrow wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 5:46 PM, James Breeden  wrote:
> 
>>
>> I'm amazed at the number of AS numbers that are assigned, but not actively
>> being used.
> 
> 
> 'not actuvely being used' ... how would you (or anyone) know? what if they
> were used only on some internal part of a large public network which never
> leaked beyond their borders/uses? What if the ASN is used on a large
> private network? (for instance.. where I know of several such things).
> 
> -chris
>  (mark andrews makes this same, valid, point)
> 

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Martin List-Petersen]

On 03/01/18 03:40, Christopher Morrow wrote:

On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 5:46 PM, James Breeden  wrote:



I'm amazed at the number of AS numbers that are assigned, but not actively
being used.



'not actuvely being used' ... how would you (or anyone) know? what if they
were used only on some internal part of a large public network which never
leaked beyond their borders/uses? What if the ASN is used on a large
private network? (for instance.. where I know of several such things).


I'd second those views. Just take IXPs as an example. Their AS does not 
necessarily get redistributed past the ISPs peering on these.


Not only that, but smaller ones often have non-routable IPv4 
allocations, like a /26.


So saying, that an ASN is unused is never very accurate, when you don't 
have the full picture. And the global routing table certainly isn't the 
full picture.


Kind regards,
Martin List-Petersen
--
Airwire Ltd. - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair
http://www.airwire.ie
Phone: 091-865 968
Registered Office: Moy, Kinvara, Co. Galway, 091-865 968 - Registered in 
Ireland No. 508961

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Christopher Morrow]

On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 5:46 PM, James Breeden  wrote:

>
> I'm amazed at the number of AS numbers that are assigned, but not actively
> being used.


'not actuvely being used' ... how would you (or anyone) know? what if they
were used only on some internal part of a large public network which never
leaked beyond their borders/uses? What if the ASN is used on a large
private network? (for instance.. where I know of several such things).

-chris
 (mark andrews makes this same, valid, point)

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Randy Bush]

if AS numbers are unused, what operational difference does it make?

but if you have the gloves and long forceps needed to deal with the rir
policy , then there is a real need for inter-region AS transfer.

randy

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Seth Mattinen]

On 1/2/18 2:46 PM, James Breeden wrote:

And before you come back with "Well they may be using it internally where it doesn't 
need to be in the GRT" - that's why we have Private AS numbers.


I.e. some form of ARIN or global policy that basically says "If AS number not routed 
or whois updated or used in 24 months, said AS number can be public noticed via mailing 
list and website and then revoked and reissued to a pending, approved AS request"



That's a very broken idea. Immediately to my mind is any internet 
exchange with route servers will have an AS number that will never show 
in a path, let alone a global table. Yet such a route server requires a 
real AS number.


~Seth

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[William Herrin]

On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 5:46 PM, James Breeden  wrote:

> I'm amazed at the number of AS numbers that are assigned, but not actively
> being used. I'm not talking just like they are offline for a week or month,
> this is complete non-use of the AS in the global routing table within
> *years*. They are completely abandoned resources - Whois data is inaccurate
> by 5-10 years, no routeviews data in the same time period, the owning
> organization (if you can find it) scratches their heads about responding
> whether they use it or not, etc.
>

Hi James,

What's it worth to you? Literally, whats the maximum amount of money you're
willing to spend on an AS number recovery effort before you figure, "meh,
it's not worth it?"


And before you come back with "Well they may be using it internally where
> it doesn't need to be in the GRT" - that's why we have Private AS numbers.
>

Private AS numbers suffer from the same interconnection collision issues as
private IP addresses and if you have a private AS it's *because* you're
interconnecting networks.

Regards,
Bill Herrin




-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Dirtside Systems . Web: 

RE: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Naslund, Steve]

I think the real issue here will be this :

1. If you are paying an RIR to maintain the registration it is yours to use 
unless the terms change to require you to justify usage on a recurring basis.

2.  If it is pre-RIR I am not sure how you could change the rules at this point 
to reclaim an AS number.  For example, I am sure the government hold hundreds 
that they are not using.  I am also sure that they were given to them in block 
form.  How would you undo that?

I have a little bit of a problem with the "not visible to the Internet as a 
whole" test.  There are a number of valid engineering reasons why an AS might 
not be visible today but may need to be tomorrow or be dynamically routing or 
not routing.  Maybe you were dual homed and now you temporarily are not.  Maybe 
you are transitioning your architecture to your shiny new IPv6 address space 
instead of your service provider's space.  It would have to be a case by case 
justification which would hardly be worth the effort.  If it was pre-RIR I am 
not sure how you would establish definitive contacts for old AS numbers.  
Please don't tell me WHOIS because that is completely inadequate for reclaiming 
something this significant.

I suppose I would not have a problem with you contacting an entity and asking 
them voluntarily to give up an unused AS number but you better make sure you 
have the right guy on the phone and I would think there would need to be some 
kind of incentive for them to do so otherwise your default answer will be no.  
All in all it is much easier to support larger AS space than to reclaim the 
oldest foggiest AS numbers.

Steven Naslund
Chicago IL

>-Original Message-
>From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Steve Noble
>Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2018 5:12 PM
>To: nanog@nanog.org
>Subject: Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time
>
>Inaccurate whois data from ARIN is not a good way to tell anything as ARIN is 
>terrible to deal with when you need to update an address or phone number or 
>anything.  I know personally as I had to fight for years to update the data on 
>>an ASN that ARIN was billing me to manage the data for.

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Job Snijders]

Dear James,

On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 10:46:35PM +, James Breeden wrote:
> Before I take this to the ARIN PPML, wanted to get NANOG's thoughts.
> 
> I'm amazed at the number of AS numbers that are assigned, but not
> actively being used. I'm not talking just like they are offline for a
> week or month, this is complete non-use of the AS in the global
> routing table within *years*. They are completely abandoned resources
> - Whois data is inaccurate by 5-10 years, no routeviews data in the
> same time period, the owning organization (if you can find it)
> scratches their heads about responding whether they use it or not,
> etc.
> 
> I know we're currently not in a push to get AS numbers or close to
> exhaustion, but I do believe that people who have global AS numbers
> should have a requirement to use them or return them to the global
> pool. Am I the only one thinking this?

The most important property of ASNs assigned by RIRs is that they are
globally _unique_. This doesn't mean they are globally visible.

I worry that a proposal like this will introduce quite some work for all
parties involved, for no obvious benefit. As you point out yourself we
are nowhere close to exhaustion.

> And before you come back with "Well they may be using it internally
> where it doesn't need to be in the GRT" - that's why we have Private
> AS numbers.

I beg to differ, private ASNs are useful when you control all aspects of
the administrative domain, but with M in mind, using globally unique
ASNs can be quite beneficial. Or, maybe as the result of M you end up
having multiple ASNs inside your network, but globally only one ASN is
visible (confederations).

> I.e. some form of ARIN or global policy that basically says "If AS
> number not routed or whois updated or used in 24 months, said AS
> number can be public noticed via mailing list and website and then
> revoked and reissued to a pending, approved AS request"

Uses of invisible ASNs include: lab networks, route servers, GRX
exchanges, route collectors, etc. The Internet is more than what
routeviews/RIS can see.

All pending, approved AS requests can immediately be fullfilled, there
is no shortage of ASNs.

> Just thinking aloud. Happy New Year all!

Same to you :-)

Kind regards,

Job

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Steve Noble]

Inaccurate whois data from ARIN is not a good way to tell anything as 
ARIN is terrible to deal with when you need to update an address or 
phone number or anything.  I know personally as I had to fight for years 
to update the data on an ASN that ARIN was billing me to manage the data 
for.



Chris Adams 
January 2, 2018 at 2:56 PM

I know of two (from a former job) that pre-date ARIN that haven't been
used since 1999 because those two companies no longer exist (nor AFAIK
does any successor company). The whois information is bogus at this
point, but I couldn't prove that.

I expect that AS numbers allocated by ARIN and other current RIRs are
not abandoned like that (since they charge annual fees, and I assume
they reclaim for non-payment), so the number of abandoned AS numbers is
probably not growing significantly (and would not grow beyond the
pre-RIR pool).

With 32 bit AS numbers though, what's the point of making an effort to
reclaim the old AS numbers? BGP4 has been shown to handle alternate
length AS numbers, so if somehow 4 billion are allocated, it probably
won't be a big deal to extend BGP again.

James Breeden 
January 2, 2018 at 2:46 PM
Before I take this to the ARIN PPML, wanted to get NANOG's thoughts.


I'm amazed at the number of AS numbers that are assigned, but not 
actively being used. I'm not talking just like they are offline for a 
week or month, this is complete non-use of the AS in the global 
routing table within *years*. They are completely abandoned resources 
- Whois data is inaccurate by 5-10 years, no routeviews data in the 
same time period, the owning organization (if you can find it) 
scratches their heads about responding whether they use it or not, etc.



I know we're currently not in a push to get AS numbers or close to 
exhaustion, but I do believe that people who have global AS numbers 
should have a requirement to use them or return them to the global 
pool. Am I the only one thinking this?



And before you come back with "Well they may be using it internally 
where it doesn't need to be in the GRT" - that's why we have Private 
AS numbers.



I.e. some form of ARIN or global policy that basically says "If AS 
number not routed or whois updated or used in 24 months, said AS 
number can be public noticed via mailing list and website and then 
revoked and reissued to a pending, approved AS request"



Just thinking aloud. Happy New Year all!


James W. Breeden

Managing Partner



[logo_transparent_background]

Arenal Group: Arenal Consulting Group | Acilis Telecom | Pines Media

PO Box 1063 | Smithville, TX 78957

Email: ja...@arenalgroup.co | office 
512.360. | cell 512.304.0745 | 
www.arenalgroup.co

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Mark Andrews]

Just because a number is NOT VISIBLE on the global Internet, it does NOT mean 
that it is not IN USE.

This applies to IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses and AS numbers.

Apart from legacy IPv4 addresses and legacy AS, these resources require annual 
payments to maintain the assignment from the RIR.

Mark

> On 3 Jan 2018, at 9:46 am, James Breeden  wrote:
> 
> Before I take this to the ARIN PPML, wanted to get NANOG's thoughts.
> 
> 
> I'm amazed at the number of AS numbers that are assigned, but not actively 
> being used. I'm not talking just like they are offline for a week or month, 
> this is complete non-use of the AS in the global routing table within 
> *years*. They are completely abandoned resources - Whois data is inaccurate 
> by 5-10 years, no routeviews data in the same time period, the owning 
> organization (if you can find it) scratches their heads about responding 
> whether they use it or not, etc.
> 
> 
> I know we're currently not in a push to get AS numbers or close to 
> exhaustion, but I do believe that people who have global AS numbers should 
> have a requirement to use them or return them to the global pool. Am I the 
> only one thinking this?
> 
> 
> And before you come back with "Well they may be using it internally where it 
> doesn't need to be in the GRT" - that's why we have Private AS numbers.
> 
> 
> I.e. some form of ARIN or global policy that basically says "If AS number not 
> routed or whois updated or used in 24 months, said AS number can be public 
> noticed via mailing list and website and then revoked and reissued to a 
> pending, approved AS request"
> 
> 
> Just thinking aloud. Happy New Year all!
> 
> 
> James W. Breeden
> 
> Managing Partner
> 
> 
> 
> [logo_transparent_background]
> 
> Arenal Group: Arenal Consulting Group | Acilis Telecom | Pines Media
> 
> PO Box 1063 | Smithville, TX 78957
> 
> Email: ja...@arenalgroup.co | office 
> 512.360. | cell 512.304.0745 | 
> www.arenalgroup.co

-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742  INTERNET: ma...@isc.org

Re: AS Numbers unused/sitting for long periods of time

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, James Breeden  said:
> I'm amazed at the number of AS numbers that are assigned, but not actively 
> being used. I'm not talking just like they are offline for a week or month, 
> this is complete non-use of the AS in the global routing table within 
> *years*. They are completely abandoned resources - Whois data is inaccurate 
> by 5-10 years, no routeviews data in the same time period, the owning 
> organization (if you can find it) scratches their heads about responding 
> whether they use it or not, etc.

I know of two (from a former job) that pre-date ARIN that haven't been
used since 1999 because those two companies no longer exist (nor AFAIK
does any successor company).  The whois information is bogus at this
point, but I couldn't prove that.

I expect that AS numbers allocated by ARIN and other current RIRs are
not abandoned like that (since they charge annual fees, and I assume
they reclaim for non-payment), so the number of abandoned AS numbers is
probably not growing significantly (and would not grow beyond the
pre-RIR pool).

With 32 bit AS numbers though, what's the point of making an effort to
reclaim the old AS numbers?  BGP4 has been shown to handle alternate
length AS numbers, so if somehow 4 billion are allocated, it probably
won't be a big deal to extend BGP again.

-- 
Chris Adams