Re: Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[Bryan Fields]

On 4/28/21 1:50 AM, Mel Beckman wrote:
> NANOG is not the right place to post this. This list is not an “interesting
> news group”, and as fascinating as the patent troll take down is, it has
> nothing to do with operational issues. Read the AUP, if your don’t believe
> me. Item 8:
> 
> Posts of a political, philosophical, or legal nature are prohibited.

Mel,

Looking at the usage guidelines
https://www.nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/, did you notice the section
"How to report a violation of these guidelines"?  #1 states "Subscribers who
are subject to or wish to report a violation of these guidelines should
contact us at admins [at] nanog.org."  Did you make such a complaint?

I didn't notice anything stating reporting it on-list is an option.  In fact
rule #15 seems to prohibit filing complaints on list.  I'm certainly not going
to make a formal complaint over what I'm sure is an out-of-character email.

FWIW, I found this of great interest.  The existence of overly broad patents
such as this harms the entire operator community and internet in general.
-- 
Bryan Fields

727-409-1194 - Voice
http://bryanfields.net

Re: Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[George Metz]

Respectfully Mel, the patent with Blackbird may well have been that -
my reading of the past case agrees with yours for the most part - but
the current case is Sable Networks suing Cloudflare over a patent
involving routers. Given the patent involved and the choice of
Cloudflare as a target, this well could snowball into a situation
where ANYONE using a router would be considered to be infringing, and
I submit that such a broad possible hit against the operator community
in general is most certainly a danger that operators should be aware
of, and if possible assist with defeating.

I'm well aware you said you were folding, but I think you were
accidentally looking at only the original case from a couple of years
ago, not the current case that is what brought this up - which is why
a number of us feel it meets the letter of the rules, as well as the
spirit.

George

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 2:26 PM Mel Beckman  wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> Blackbird chooses its victims based on whether any of a couple dozen vague 
> patents they hold can plausibly be used to extort money out of a victim 
> company. BB doesn’t go after service providers in particular, it just happens 
> to have chosen a service provider (unwisely, it turns out) in this case.
>
> There are no operational issues here. No individual Internet protocol or 
> technology “many of  us use” was named. The patent was invalid on its face, 
> as it only described an abstract idea — “Providing an internet third party 
> data channel” — in the most general terms possible, not as an invention, as 
> required by U.S. patent law.
>
> The only difference between Cloudfare and BB’s other victims was that, rather 
> than compute the instant cost-benefit analysis most companies do (“It will 
> cost us tens of thousands to fight this, but only a few thousand to settle” 
> ), Cloudfare valiantly chose to stand on principle, rather than mathematics, 
> and fought the claim. By that simple act, the case by BB was thrown out 
> virtually instantaneously.
>
> Judge Vince Chhabria held that “abstract ideas are not patentable” and 
> Blackbird’s assertion of the patent “attempts to monopolize the abstract idea 
> of monitoring a preexisting data stream between a server and a client” was 
> not an invention. The case was rejected before it started because the court 
> found Blackbird’s patent to be invalid.
>
> The choice to fold or fight in a patent troll battle is clearly a 
> philosophical one, not a network operational decision. Now, rather than 
> lengthen this out-of-policy thread further, I will take the non-valiant 
> “fold” path, and leave the rest of you to your perpetual arguments.
>
>  -mel
>
> On Apr 28, 2021, at 10:41 AM, William Herrin  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:20 AM Mel Beckman  wrote:
>
> This dispute is no different than if they had gotten into an argument
>
> over a copier toner scammer.
>
>
> Hi Mel,
>
> If the patents at issue pertained to copier toner I might agree with
> you. They're networking patents purporting to govern technologies many
> if not most of us use.
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>
>
> --
> William Herrin
> b...@herrin.us
> https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[Mel Beckman]

Bill,

Blackbird chooses its victims based on whether any of a couple dozen vague 
patents they hold can plausibly be used to extort money out of a victim 
company. BB doesn’t go after service providers in particular, it just happens 
to have chosen a service provider (unwisely, it turns out) in this case.

There are no operational issues here. No individual Internet protocol or 
technology “many of  us use” was named. The patent was invalid on its face, as 
it only described an abstract idea — “Providing an internet third party data 
channel” — in the most general terms possible, not as an invention, as required 
by U.S. patent law.

The only difference between Cloudfare and BB’s other victims was that, rather 
than compute the instant cost-benefit analysis most companies do (“It will cost 
us tens of thousands to fight this, but only a few thousand to settle” ), 
Cloudfare valiantly chose to stand on principle, rather than mathematics, and 
fought the claim. By that simple act, the case by BB was thrown out virtually 
instantaneously.

Judge Vince Chhabria held that “abstract ideas are not patentable” and 
Blackbird’s assertion of the patent “attempts to monopolize the abstract idea 
of monitoring a preexisting data stream between a server and a client” was not 
an invention. The case was rejected before it started because the court found 
Blackbird’s patent to be invalid.

The choice to fold or fight in a patent troll battle is clearly a philosophical 
one, not a network operational decision. Now, rather than lengthen this 
out-of-policy thread further, I will take the non-valiant “fold” path, and 
leave the rest of you to your perpetual arguments.

 -mel

On Apr 28, 2021, at 10:41 AM, William Herrin  wrote:

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:20 AM Mel Beckman  wrote:
This dispute is no different than if they had gotten into an argument
over a copier toner scammer.

Hi Mel,

If the patents at issue pertained to copier toner I might agree with
you. They're networking patents purporting to govern technologies many
if not most of us use.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[Mel Beckman]

Michael,

No, I explained very clearly that my comments about DoD address space were not 
related to any single party — in fact, government malfeasance with citizen data 
has gone on equally with every administration since J. Edgar Hoover ran the 
FBI. THAT is clearly an operational issue, since operators have to decide if 
they’re going to let this bizarre IP space enter their networks.

But your comments do drip — with venom and bile — so this conversation is over.

 -mel

On Apr 28, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Michael Thomas  wrote:




On 4/28/21 10:19 AM, Mel Beckman wrote:
Michael,

Sorry, but Cloudfare wasn’t sued because they’re a service provider. This 
dispute is no different than if they had gotten into an argument over a copier 
toner scammer. And your snide remark about my comments, claiming they are 
political, is uncalled for.  I fastidiously avoid making political comments, 
and take pains to explain my operational concerns if there might be any doubt 
(as I did with the Parler cancellations).

I never said the copyright troll issue isn’t important. It just doesn’t belong 
on NANOG. It hinges entirely on philosophical issues with the PTO.


Snort. Your gubbermint conspiracy theories about the DoD address space dripped 
of politics.

They were sued because they are a service provider with money and they are 
fighting back asking for the community to help out. As William said, that seems 
pretty on-topic to me. This community is in a good position to provide that 
help which would be of benefit to NANOG in general. Again, on-topic for network 
operators.

Mike

Re: Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[William Herrin]

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:20 AM Mel Beckman  wrote:
> This dispute is no different than if they had gotten into an argument
> over a copier toner scammer.

Hi Mel,

If the patents at issue pertained to copier toner I might agree with
you. They're networking patents purporting to govern technologies many
if not most of us use.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[Michael Thomas]

On 4/28/21 10:19 AM, Mel Beckman wrote:

Michael,

Sorry, but Cloudfare wasn’t sued /because/ they’re a service provider. 
This dispute is no different than if they had gotten into an argument 
over a copier toner scammer. And your snide remark about my comments, 
claiming they are political, is uncalled for.  I fastidiously avoid 
making political comments, and take pains to explain my operational 
concerns if there might be any doubt (as I did with the Parler 
cancellations).


I never said the copyright troll issue isn’t important. It just 
doesn’t belong on NANOG. It hinges entirely on philosophical issues 
with the PTO.


Snort. Your gubbermint conspiracy theories about the DoD address space 
dripped of politics.


They were sued because they are a service provider with money and they 
are fighting back asking for the community to help out. As William said, 
that seems pretty on-topic to me. This community is in a good position 
to provide that help which would be of benefit to NANOG in general. 
Again, on-topic for network operators.


Mike

Re: Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[Mel Beckman]

Michael,

Sorry, but Cloudfare wasn’t sued because they’re a service provider. This 
dispute is no different than if they had gotten into an argument over a copier 
toner scammer. And your snide remark about my comments, claiming they are 
political, is uncalled for.  I fastidiously avoid making political comments, 
and take pains to explain my operational concerns if there might be any doubt 
(as I did with the Parler cancellations).

I never said the copyright troll issue isn’t important. It just doesn’t belong 
on NANOG. It hinges entirely on philosophical issues with the PTO.

 -mel

On Apr 28, 2021, at 9:54 AM, Michael Thomas  wrote:


On 4/28/21 2:04 AM, William Herrin wrote:
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 10:51 PM Mel Beckman  wrote:
NANOG is not the right place to post this. This list is not an “interesting 
news group”, and as fascinating as the patent troll take down is, it has 
nothing to do with operational issues. Read the AUP, if your don’t believe me. 
Item 8:
A major North American Operator goes after some industry boogeymen who
tried to extort them with a router (Networking) patent. Seems pretty
on topic to me.

Doubly so because this is exactly the right community that can help eliminate 
an industry scourge with its knowledge of prior art, etc.

Mike

Re: Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[Michael Thomas]

On 4/28/21 2:04 AM, William Herrin wrote:

On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 10:51 PM Mel Beckman  wrote:

NANOG is not the right place to post this. This list is not an “interesting 
news group”, and as fascinating as the patent troll take down is, it has 
nothing to do with operational issues. Read the AUP, if your don’t believe me. 
Item 8:

A major North American Operator goes after some industry boogeymen who
tried to extort them with a router (Networking) patent. Seems pretty
on topic to me.

Doubly so because this is exactly the right community that can help 
eliminate an industry scourge with its knowledge of prior art, etc.


Mike

Re: Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[Michael Thomas]

Cloudflare is a service provider. Getting sued by patent trolls is an 
operational issue. And you're a fine one to complain about political 
axes to grind.


Mike

On 4/27/21 10:50 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
NANOG is not the right place to post this. This list is not an 
“interesting news group”, and as fascinating as the patent troll take 
down is, it has nothing to do with operational issues. Read the AUP, 
if your don’t believe me. Item 8:


Posts of a political, philosophical, or legal nature are prohibited.

I for one don’t want the list to be overrun again by people with a 
political axe to grind, no matter how noble.


 -mel

On Apr 27, 2021, at 3:34 PM, Justin Paine via NANOG  
wrote:



Correction -- another one. 
https://blog.cloudflare.com/winning-the-blackbird-battle/ 
  :)


Here's an except from the new blog post:

offering $100,000 to be shared by the winners who are successful in 
finding such prior art.


Please help!

__
*Justin Paine*
He/Him/His
Head of Trust & Safety
101 Townsend St, San Francisco, CA 94107

*PGP:* BBAA 6BCE 3305 7FD6 6452 7115 57B6 0114 DE0B 314D 





On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 3:26 PM Michael Thomas > wrote:



And we can help! Cloudflare is setting out to destroy a patent troll:


https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20210426/09454946684/patent-troll-sable-networks-apparently-needs-to-learn-lesson-cloudflare-wants-to-destroy-another-troll



Mike

Re: Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[William Herrin]

On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 10:51 PM Mel Beckman  wrote:
> NANOG is not the right place to post this. This list is not an “interesting 
> news group”, and as fascinating as the patent troll take down is, it has 
> nothing to do with operational issues. Read the AUP, if your don’t believe 
> me. Item 8:

A major North American Operator goes after some industry boogeymen who
tried to extort them with a router (Networking) patent. Seems pretty
on topic to me.

Regards,
Bill Herrin

-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[Mel Beckman]

NANOG is not the right place to post this. This list is not an “interesting 
news group”, and as fascinating as the patent troll take down is, it has 
nothing to do with operational issues. Read the AUP, if your don’t believe me. 
Item 8:

Posts of a political, philosophical, or legal nature are prohibited.

I for one don’t want the list to be overrun again by people with a political 
axe to grind, no matter how noble.

 -mel

On Apr 27, 2021, at 3:34 PM, Justin Paine via NANOG  wrote:


Correction -- another one.  
https://blog.cloudflare.com/winning-the-blackbird-battle/   :)

Here's an except from the new blog post:

offering $100,000 to be shared by the winners who are successful in finding 
such prior art.

Please help!




__
Justin Paine
He/Him/His
Head of Trust & Safety
101 Townsend St, San Francisco, CA 94107

PGP: BBAA 6BCE 3305 7FD6 6452 7115 57B6 0114 DE0B 
314D


On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 3:26 PM Michael Thomas 
mailto:m...@mtcc.com>> wrote:

And we can help! Cloudflare is setting out to destroy a patent troll:

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20210426/09454946684/patent-troll-sable-networks-apparently-needs-to-learn-lesson-cloudflare-wants-to-destroy-another-troll

Mike

Re: Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[Justin Paine via NANOG]

Correction -- another one.
https://blog.cloudflare.com/winning-the-blackbird-battle/   :)

Here's an except from the new blog post:

offering $100,000 to be shared by the winners who are successful in finding
such prior art.

Please help!



__
*Justin Paine*
He/Him/His
Head of Trust & Safety
101 Townsend St, San Francisco, CA 94107 

*PGP:* BBAA 6BCE 3305 7FD6 6452 7115 57B6 0114 DE0B 314D



On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 3:26 PM Michael Thomas  wrote:

>
> And we can help! Cloudflare is setting out to destroy a patent troll:
>
>
> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20210426/09454946684/patent-troll-sable-networks-apparently-needs-to-learn-lesson-cloudflare-wants-to-destroy-another-troll
>
> Mike
>
>

Something that should put a smile on everybody's face today

[Michael Thomas]

And we can help! Cloudflare is setting out to destroy a patent troll:

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20210426/09454946684/patent-troll-sable-networks-apparently-needs-to-learn-lesson-cloudflare-wants-to-destroy-another-troll

Mike