Re: Starting a greenfield carrier backbone network that can scale to national and international service. What would you do?

[charles]

On 2014-04-04 09:08, Mark Radabaugh wrote:

On 4/3/14, 4:52 PM, char...@thefnf.org wrote:

Hello everyone,

It's been some time since I've been subscribed/replied/posted here (or 
on WISPA for that matter). I've been pretty busy running a non profit 
startup (protip: don't do that. It's really really terrible) :) I'm 
cofounder and CTO of the Free Networking Foundation. Our goal is to 
bring broadband (5 mbps symmetric to start) bandwidth to the 2/3 of 
Americans who currently can't get it (rural, urban core, undeserved, 
"$ILEC stops on otherside of street" etc).



Please feel free to visit us at https://www.thefnf.org for more 
information.



I'm equally confused.   Last mile is much more of a problem than
backbone.


Quite true. This is why we've started there, and it's been our primary 
focus. We have more work to do of course. However efforts are promising 
and ongoing.



 I run a (for a WISP) mid size end user network.  Raw

bandwidth cost is <8% of our expenses.


Nice. That's not horrible. You have an AS/ip space? Or buying blended?

  Last mile delivery and

transport around our own network is the expensive part.


Yes. It certainly is. Gear, end user support, truck rolls etc.



Nearly all of the action in new last mile networks is wireless or
small provider FTTx deployments.   I would look at what WISPA
(www.wispa.org) is doing,


Yes. I'm quite connected with the WISPA folks, especially the 
principals.




as well at the FTTH council

(www.ftthcouncil.com)


Wasn't familiar with them. Thanks!

 to see what is being done in last mile.   The

FCC and Agriculture departments is also heavily involved in rural and
last mile deployments and is (depending on your view) either funding
these deployments, distorting the markets by discouraging private
investment, or wasting lots of money.


Yeah. I've been keeping an eye on that. We've helped several network 
builds happen via grants. Usually from local economic development 
councils.

Re: Starting a greenfield carrier backbone network that can scale to national and international service. What would you do?

[Mark Radabaugh]

On 4/3/14, 4:52 PM, char...@thefnf.org wrote:

Hello everyone,

It's been some time since I've been subscribed/replied/posted here (or 
on WISPA for that matter). I've been pretty busy running a non profit 
startup (protip: don't do that. It's really really terrible) :) I'm 
cofounder and CTO of the Free Networking Foundation. Our goal is to 
bring broadband (5 mbps symmetric to start) bandwidth to the 2/3 of 
Americans who currently can't get it (rural, urban core, undeserved, 
"$ILEC stops on otherside of street" etc).



Please feel free to visit us at https://www.thefnf.org for more 
information.


I'm equally confused.   Last mile is much more of a problem than 
backbone.   I run a (for a WISP) mid size end user network.  Raw 
bandwidth cost is <8% of our expenses.  Last mile delivery and transport 
around our own network is the expensive part.


Nearly all of the action in new last mile networks is wireless or small 
provider FTTx deployments.   I would look at what WISPA (www.wispa.org) 
is doing, as well at the FTTH council (www.ftthcouncil.com) to see what 
is being done in last mile.   The FCC and Agriculture departments is 
also heavily involved in rural and last mile deployments and is 
(depending on your view) either funding these deployments, distorting 
the markets by discouraging private investment, or wasting lots of money.


Mark

--
Mark Radabaugh
Amplex

m...@amplex.net  419.837.5015 x 1021

Re: Starting a greenfield carrier backbone network that can scale to national and international service. What would you do?

[Daniël W . Crompton]

I recently saw an interesting talk about this at 30c3, this is the way some
French ISPs are solving this:

http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2013/30C3_-_5391_-_en_-_saal_6_-_201312291130_-_y_u_no_isp_taking_back_the_net_-_taziden.html

D.


Oplerno is built upon empowering faculty and students

-- 
Daniël W. Crompton 




http://specialbrands.net/

   




On 4 April 2014 03:50, Brandon Ross  wrote:

> Let's start with your basic assumption here.  Why would you build a
> backbone at all if your goal is to solve last mile problems?
>
> It seems to me that the expense and distraction of building a large
> backbone network doesn't contribute to your goals at all, given that there
> are many high quality, nationwide backbone networks in North America today
> available at reasonable cost.
>
>
> On Thu, 3 Apr 2014, char...@thefnf.org wrote:
>
>  Hello everyone,
>>
>> It's been some time since I've been subscribed/replied/posted here (or on
>> WISPA for that matter). I've been pretty busy running a non profit startup
>> (protip: don't do that. It's really really terrible) :) I'm cofounder and
>> CTO of the Free Networking Foundation. Our goal is to bring broadband (5
>> mbps symmetric to start) bandwidth to the 2/3 of Americans who currently
>> can't get it (rural, urban core, undeserved, "$ILEC stops on otherside of
>> street" etc).
>>
>> Efforts so far primarily have consisted of WiFI last (square) mile
>> delivery using Ubiquiti hardware and the qmp.cat firmware (also meraki
>> access points that were donated, for some reason this seems to happen quite
>> a bit). We've helped numerous networks get started, grow and (soon we hope)
>> become self sustaining in Austin, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Detroit, New
>> York and a few other places throughout the US. The networks are in various
>> stages of maturity of course, but a number of them are fully operational
>> and passing real traffic. Especially the one in Kansas City (it spans both
>> states).
>>
>> These are (point to point, routed) access/distribution networks which
>> connect into colocation providers blended networks.
>>
>> So that's the background and current state of affairs. Not really NANOG
>> material.
>>
>> The next step is to secure our v6 space and AS number. Now that's not
>> horribly difficult or really worthy of NANOG (though I do greatly
>> appreciate folks on the list who helped me through the theory/practice of
>> that process sometime ago). It appears to be fairly straightforward if you
>> are not an LIR. Simply go through the paperwork (LOA, submit to ARIN, get
>> out the credit card, textbook BGP config and done). And if FNF was
>> operating the networks (we don't, we just help with
>> organizing/consulting/software guidance/hardware spend
>> optimization/logistics etc) and if there was just one POP (and associated
>> administrative body), then again it wouldn't be that interesting or worth
>> cluttering up NANOG.
>>
>> FNF goal is to serve as an LIR, SWIPing out /48 chunks to neighborhood
>> level operators. They would then peer with whatever upstream ISPs are
>> regionally close and announce out the space. This of course would be
>> associated with a training program, registration in an IPAM tool etc.
>>
>> Regarding the above?
>>
>> What do the operators on this list wish they could of been trained in
>> starting out? I mean obviously they should have good mastery and working
>> experience of CCNA level material, along with exposure to higher level
>> concepts of WAN networking. What are the tricks, the gotchas, the "man that
>> would of saved my company a million bucks in transit costs". Yes I realize
>> these sort of things are usually closely held. I also am striving to create
>> an entirely new breed of operators running BGP enabled sites with ipv6. The
>> more I can do to help ease those folks integration into the internet, the
>> better. In short, the often debated issue on this list of v6 endpoint
>> explosion is going to be very very very real.
>>
>> What IPAM tools out there can scale to a multi hundred million node,
>> distributed, "eventual consistency" national level? (I've been working
>> closely with guifi.net, and we are attempting to relaunch that as a very
>> slick Apple like experience with a libremap (couchdb based) system.
>>
>> I'd love to hear from folks across the spectrum of experience and network
>> size. From folks who have been dual homed for <~1 year at a single site, to
>> tier1 operators who were there when it all started.
>>
>> So what would you like to see done in a greenfield, open source, open
>> governance carrier backbone network? What would a dream TIER1 (and I use
>> that in the default free zone sense of the word) look like to you?
>>
>> Also how the heck would one get this bootstrapped at a sustainable pace?
>> Would o

Re: Starting a greenfield carrier backbone network that can scale to national and international service. What would you do?

[Brandon Ross]

Let's start with your basic assumption here.  Why would you build a 
backbone at all if your goal is to solve last mile problems?


It seems to me that the expense and distraction of building a large 
backbone network doesn't contribute to your goals at all, given that there 
are many high quality, nationwide backbone networks in North America today 
available at reasonable cost.


On Thu, 3 Apr 2014, char...@thefnf.org wrote:


Hello everyone,

It's been some time since I've been subscribed/replied/posted here (or on 
WISPA for that matter). I've been pretty busy running a non profit startup 
(protip: don't do that. It's really really terrible) :) I'm cofounder and CTO 
of the Free Networking Foundation. Our goal is to bring broadband (5 mbps 
symmetric to start) bandwidth to the 2/3 of Americans who currently can't get 
it (rural, urban core, undeserved, "$ILEC stops on otherside of street" etc).


Efforts so far primarily have consisted of WiFI last (square) mile delivery 
using Ubiquiti hardware and the qmp.cat firmware (also meraki access points 
that were donated, for some reason this seems to happen quite a bit). We've 
helped numerous networks get started, grow and (soon we hope) become self 
sustaining in Austin, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Detroit, New York and a few 
other places throughout the US. The networks are in various stages of 
maturity of course, but a number of them are fully operational and passing 
real traffic. Especially the one in Kansas City (it spans both states).


These are (point to point, routed) access/distribution networks which connect 
into colocation providers blended networks.


So that's the background and current state of affairs. Not really NANOG 
material.


The next step is to secure our v6 space and AS number. Now that's not 
horribly difficult or really worthy of NANOG (though I do greatly appreciate 
folks on the list who helped me through the theory/practice of that process 
sometime ago). It appears to be fairly straightforward if you are not an LIR. 
Simply go through the paperwork (LOA, submit to ARIN, get out the credit 
card, textbook BGP config and done). And if FNF was operating the networks 
(we don't, we just help with organizing/consulting/software guidance/hardware 
spend optimization/logistics etc) and if there was just one POP (and 
associated administrative body), then again it wouldn't be that interesting 
or worth cluttering up NANOG.


FNF goal is to serve as an LIR, SWIPing out /48 chunks to neighborhood level 
operators. They would then peer with whatever upstream ISPs are regionally 
close and announce out the space. This of course would be associated with a 
training program, registration in an IPAM tool etc.


Regarding the above?

What do the operators on this list wish they could of been trained in 
starting out? I mean obviously they should have good mastery and working 
experience of CCNA level material, along with exposure to higher level 
concepts of WAN networking. What are the tricks, the gotchas, the "man that 
would of saved my company a million bucks in transit costs". Yes I realize 
these sort of things are usually closely held. I also am striving to create 
an entirely new breed of operators running BGP enabled sites with ipv6. The 
more I can do to help ease those folks integration into the internet, the 
better. In short, the often debated issue on this list of v6 endpoint 
explosion is going to be very very very real.


What IPAM tools out there can scale to a multi hundred million node, 
distributed, "eventual consistency" national level? (I've been working 
closely with guifi.net, and we are attempting to relaunch that as a very 
slick Apple like experience with a libremap (couchdb based) system.


I'd love to hear from folks across the spectrum of experience and network 
size. From folks who have been dual homed for <~1 year at a single site, to 
tier1 operators who were there when it all started.


So what would you like to see done in a greenfield, open source, open 
governance carrier backbone network? What would a dream TIER1 (and I use that 
in the default free zone sense of the word) look like to you?


Also how the heck would one get this bootstrapped at a sustainable pace? 
Would one create numerous tier2 regional carriers, and they would feed into 
an over arching tier1? I'm thinking something like a 501c8 type structure ( 
http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Other-Non-Profits/Fraternal-Societies[1] 
)


As far as I know, this is the first time that an intentional community type 
approach is taken and a tier1 is the end goal. Not evolving into one, buying 
ones way into it, but a manifest destiny type approach to building a 
backbone.


Please feel free to reach out to me directly (char...@thefnf.org[2] ) if you 
wish to have a one on one discussion. In particular I'm interested in legal 
expertise in these sort of areas (law/compliance/contracting/negotiations for 
right of way etc etc etc).


Thanks for

Starting a greenfield carrier backbone network that can scale to national and international service. What would you do?

[charles]

Hello everyone,

It's been some time since I've been subscribed/replied/posted here (or 
on WISPA for that matter). I've been pretty busy running a non profit 
startup (protip: don't do that. It's really really terrible) :) I'm 
cofounder and CTO of the Free Networking Foundation. Our goal is to 
bring broadband (5 mbps symmetric to start) bandwidth to the 2/3 of 
Americans who currently can't get it (rural, urban core, undeserved, 
"$ILEC stops on otherside of street" etc).


Efforts so far primarily have consisted of WiFI last (square) mile 
delivery using Ubiquiti hardware and the qmp.cat firmware (also meraki 
access points that were donated, for some reason this seems to happen 
quite a bit). We've helped numerous networks get started, grow and (soon 
we hope) become self sustaining in Austin, Kansas City, Los Angeles, 
Detroit, New York and a few other places throughout the US. The networks 
are in various stages of maturity of course, but a number of them are 
fully operational and passing real traffic. Especially the one in Kansas 
City (it spans both states).


These are (point to point, routed) access/distribution networks which 
connect into colocation providers blended networks.


So that's the background and current state of affairs. Not really NANOG 
material.


The next step is to secure our v6 space and AS number. Now that's not 
horribly difficult or really worthy of NANOG (though I do greatly 
appreciate folks on the list who helped me through the theory/practice 
of that process sometime ago). It appears to be fairly straightforward 
if you are not an LIR. Simply go through the paperwork (LOA, submit to 
ARIN, get out the credit card, textbook BGP config and done). And if FNF 
was operating the networks (we don't, we just help with 
organizing/consulting/software guidance/hardware spend 
optimization/logistics etc) and if there was just one POP (and 
associated administrative body), then again it wouldn't be that 
interesting or worth cluttering up NANOG.


FNF goal is to serve as an LIR, SWIPing out /48 chunks to neighborhood 
level operators. They would then peer with whatever upstream ISPs are 
regionally close and announce out the space. This of course would be 
associated with a training program, registration in an IPAM tool etc.


Regarding the above?

What do the operators on this list wish they could of been trained in 
starting out? I mean obviously they should have good mastery and working 
experience of CCNA level material, along with exposure to higher level 
concepts of WAN networking. What are the tricks, the gotchas, the "man 
that would of saved my company a million bucks in transit costs". Yes I 
realize these sort of things are usually closely held. I also am 
striving to create an entirely new breed of operators running BGP 
enabled sites with ipv6. The more I can do to help ease those folks 
integration into the internet, the better. In short, the often debated 
issue on this list of v6 endpoint explosion is going to be very very 
very real.


What IPAM tools out there can scale to a multi hundred million node, 
distributed, "eventual consistency" national level? (I've been working 
closely with guifi.net, and we are attempting to relaunch that as a very 
slick Apple like experience with a libremap (couchdb based) system.


I'd love to hear from folks across the spectrum of experience and 
network size. From folks who have been dual homed for <~1 year at a 
single site, to tier1 operators who were there when it all started.


So what would you like to see done in a greenfield, open source, open 
governance carrier backbone network? What would a dream TIER1 (and I use 
that in the default free zone sense of the word) look like to you?


Also how the heck would one get this bootstrapped at a sustainable pace? 
Would one create numerous tier2 regional carriers, and they would feed 
into an over arching tier1? I'm thinking something like a 501c8 type 
structure ( 
http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Other-Non-Profits/Fraternal-Societies[1] 
)


As far as I know, this is the first time that an intentional community 
type approach is taken and a tier1 is the end goal. Not evolving into 
one, buying ones way into it, but a manifest destiny type approach to 
building a backbone.


Please feel free to reach out to me directly (char...@thefnf.org[2] ) if 
you wish to have a one on one discussion. In particular I'm interested 
in legal expertise in these sort of areas 
(law/compliance/contracting/negotiations for right of way etc etc etc).


Thanks for reading. I look forward to the discussion!

PS: Yes, I'm young and idealistic. I'm also grounded/practical/focused. 
I'm currently working on making the access portion of the network as 
smooth and turnkey as possible. (That basically means packaging up 
zeroshell/observium/powerdns/libremap/trigger and other bits/bobs into a 
nice livecd/ova/openvz package). I also like to think about the next 
wave of issues while workin