[neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron frequency counter and 6909 issue

[Dekatron42]

The only working specimens of Z505S that I own have a purplish/blueish glow 
with very little orange in them. The ones that have more orange only counts 
below 50KHz and not well at all, they count erratically. The other ones 
count perfectly and also a bit beyond 50KHz.
 
My 6909/6910 from various manufacturers also have slight blueish glow to 
them but are more orange than the Z505S's. all of my 6909/6910 count up to 
the specified 100KHz and a little more if the surrounding circuitry is 
trimmed.
 
It would be interresting to check magazine articles on these Dekatrons as 
you usally get a lot more information from those than from manufacturer 
datasheets/manuals, especially when it comes to details the manufacturers 
themselevs didn't want to reveal.
 
/Martin
 
 

On Friday, June 21, 2013 4:56:25 PM UTC+2, threeneurons wrote:

> The color is the pink/orange on the fringe. That's the color of 3 of my 
> 6909s, both of my 6910s, and a Z505S, when it was working. I did get 
> another 6909, as a swap for a 6802, in the last year, that has a glow that 
> is more of a standard dekatron's orange. Its still a little more yellowish, 
> than the standard speed orange, but closer to that orange, than to the 
> pinkish /orange,in this photo.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/15bb93aa-4f09-40db-9b39-1468f9ed8e9b%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron frequency counter and 6909 issue

[threeneurons]

Here's a photo of one of my Sylvania 6910 dekatrons, glowing:




The color is the pink/orange on the fringe. That's the color of 3 of my 
6909s, both of my 6910s, and a Z505S, when it was working. I did get 
another 6909, as a swap for a 6802, in the last year, that has a glow that 
is more of a standard dekatron's orange. Its still a little more yellowish, 
than the standard speed orange, but closer to that orange, than to the 
pinkish /orange,in this photo. 

I did try a simple spectral analysis with a cheap plastic spectrometer, 
with inconclusive results. The gas mix has lines all across the spectrum. I 
need at least a spectrometer, of the grade, that I used in college, so I 
can get some actual measurements of each of those lines. These tubes 
definitely use some complex gas mix.

As you can see its not the blue/violet that you see in 3-guide ("single 
pulse") tubes, like the OG-3 & GC10D. 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/368cf33d-87e4-43d3-bea9-c3a0624ec93f%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron frequency counter and 6909 issue

[Chris Stephens]

Wow great responses.. I have to run to work. I will be back later and 
comment more..

The spectral emissions is a interesting thing :)

So im also after some 6909's. As they are not prized because of pinkish 
glow maybe you guys have some you might want to part with :)

Working a Russian substitute into the instrument is a great idea. Im 
interested in doing that.

Gotta go, be back later..

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/2edf76ac-7931-4f5b-bf27-f2fa750d353a%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron frequency counter and 6909 issue

[Tidak Ada]

That will be difficult, because of lack on the  (expensive) equipment..
I have here a Sylvania 6909 and a 6910 as well the Raytheon equivalents.
Also two Sylvania 7155's. Should be fine if I could test them.
Tha tubes are for the collection, except the 7155's. They are bought to make
a clock divider.
 
eric

  _  

From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Nick
Sent: vrijdag 21 juni 2013 12:55
To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron frequency counter and 6909 issue


On Friday, 21 June 2013 11:35:13 UTC+1, Tidak Ada wrote:


Isn't it just the loss of hydrogen (helium) that makes the trouble? The
absolute pressure inside the tube is lower then outside, but the partial
tension of the hydrogen (helium) is higher than atmospheric as me is
told


Whilst many fast dekatrons contain hydrogen (and some helium) I'm not sure
the 6909 does - its glow is very orange, indicating a standard-ish Penning
mixture with no hydrogen - also, I can find no documentation stating that
this tube contains hydrogen - it is, however, a reasonable assumption that
it *might* as its a "higher speed" (for a dekatron) tube...

Hydrogen gives a pink-ish glow... not orange. The only real way to be sure
would be to find a good 6909 and do a spectral analysis of its glow... I'm
sure we have members who could do that...

I'm still interested in the relative performance of extant Sylvania vs
Rattheon tubes...

Nick

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/d8bd589a-62a7-46c5-a249-7755b6b
04864%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/!%26!AAAYAPDddShx705MuX20yCpp0vvCgAAAEMbniH%2B%2B6ddOh2850e7%2BQzMBAA%3D%3D%40zeelandnet.nl.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron frequency counter and 6909 issue

[Nick]

On Friday, 21 June 2013 11:35:13 UTC+1, Tidak Ada wrote:

>  Isn't it just the loss of hydrogen (helium) that makes the trouble? The 
> absolute pressure inside the tube is lower then outside, but the 
> *partial*tension of the hydrogen (helium) is higher than atmospheric as me is 
> told
>

Whilst many fast dekatrons contain hydrogen (and some helium) I'm not sure 
the 6909 does - its glow is very orange, indicating a standard-ish Penning 
mixture with no hydrogen - also, I can find no documentation stating that 
this tube contains hydrogen - it is, however, a reasonable assumption that 
it *might* as its a "higher speed" (for a dekatron) tube...

Hydrogen gives a pink-ish glow... not orange. The only real way to be sure 
would be to find a good 6909 and do a spectral analysis of its glow... I'm 
sure we have members who could do that...

I'm still interested in the relative performance of extant Sylvania vs 
Rattheon tubes...

Nick

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/d8bd589a-62a7-46c5-a249-7755b6b04864%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron frequency counter and 6909 issue

[Tidak Ada]

Isn't it just the loss of hydrogen (helium) that makes the trouble? The
absolute pressure inside the tube is lower then outside, but the partial
tension of the hydrogen (helium) is higher than atmospheric as me is
told
 
eric

  _  

From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Nick
Sent: vrijdag 21 juni 2013 10:56
To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron frequency counter and 6909 issue


As others have said, the 6909 is prone to leakage - more accurately
"ingassing" than "outgassing" as it starts off with a Penning mixture below
atmospheric pressure, 

The Sylvania ones are certainly problematic, but the Raytheon electrical
equivalents (CK6909) are mechanically very different - I wonder if they also
suffer the same problems?

Nick



-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/cdef96e1-09f7-440d-ab13-f2b20d3
55c9e%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/!%26!AAAYAPDddShx705MuX20yCpp0vvCgAAAENQr8ofz4TxFjavkvcQZRusBAA%3D%3D%40zeelandnet.nl.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron frequency counter and 6909 issue

[Nick]

As others have said, the 6909 is prone to leakage - more accurately 
"ingassing" than "outgassing" as it starts off with a Penning mixture below 
atmospheric pressure,

The Sylvania ones are certainly problematic, but the Raytheon electrical 
equivalents (CK6909) are mechanically very different - I wonder if they 
also suffer the same problems?

Nick


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/cdef96e1-09f7-440d-ab13-f2b20d355c9e%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron frequency counter and 6909 issue

[threeneurons]

Chris,

You're in a real pickle. I'd say, "I feel your pain", but I've never been a 
fan of the 6909. I do, however, understand, that you want your instrument 
to be fully functional, at its full specs. I really don't know what can be 
done with a 6909 to extend its shelf life. To do that we need to know how 
they're really failing. Don't know if its from gas leaking out, or air 
leaking in. That way we'll what's better. Storing it under elevated 
pressure, or lower pressure. Cooling will probably slow down any reactions, 
but by how much. It may only be a few percentage points. And if we're not 
careful, we might accidentally introduce condensation which will corrode 
the wires, and the rusting wires may crack the glass seal. There are some 2 
guide high speed dekatrons other than the 6909, 6910, and Z505S. I think 
the A103 and A106 meet that standard. They are a little shorter than the 
6909, so maybe they'll work using a socket adapter. The Russians kept 
making dekatrons well after the west stopped. So that may buy an extra 20 
years.


On Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:43:37 PM UTC-7, Chris Stephens wrote:
>
> some years back I found and restored a Erie Instrumation Dekatron based 
> frequency counter.
>
> http://www.xymox1.com/Projects/erie_instrumation_model_400.htm
>
> Its a wonderful instrument.
>
> Recently tho I noticed that one of the 6909 was degrading. It was getting 
> stuck and could not reach 100khz operation any more. I checked all the 
> signals to it and all were great. The tube was not performing normally. I 
> know these 6909 tubes have life issues. The counter uses 2 of them, one in 
> the 1's position and 1 in the 10's position. Swapping these brought the 
> unit back to normal operation and careful adjustment of voltages got be to 
> 100% perfect operation up to 120khz.
>
> However..
>
> It now painfully obvious the 6909's are dying. As are all 6909's I 
> believe. I could alter the circuit to use 6802's but at a reduced 
> functional max freq of 5Khz which is a long way from its 100khz. There is 
> no doubt that one day there will be no more 6909's as they will all die.
>
> Im looking to pick up some known good, and maybe really great shape 
> 6909's. I need to replace 1 for sure, and then im going to store away the 
> others for later hoping they will last on the shelf.
>
> How should i store these ? If they are outgassing maybe a pressurized 
> container to keep the gasses in the tube ? If the odd gas is reacting with 
> materials inside the tube maybe placing them in the freezer might extend 
> life ? Maybe both, pressurized container and freezing it ? I realize these 
> are extremes but I REAALLY want to have working tubes in 20-30 years. Maybe 
> longer.
>
> I realize im like the only one who cares about these 6909's as I would 
> think no one now needs to go 100khz but my unique frequency counter.
>
> So maybe someone here has some nice 6909's ? and maybe you guys might know 
> of a way to preserve them for 30-100 years from now ?
>
> Also of course, as always, if anyone happens to have a manual for the 
> counter im VERY interested in it.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/324c89d7-10be-4688-bb3e-23c93815fe6d%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron frequency counter and 6909 issue

[Tristan]

I have one 6909 and have been wondering the same thing. There is a section 
on gas permeation in the book Vacuum Sealing Techniques by Alexander Roth 
and from reading it would seem that while the hydrogen can permeate the 
glass envelope, the low pressure within means that gasses (helium and neon 
in particular) can more readily permeate into the glass envelope from the 
outside atmosphere. Lower temperatures will certainly reduce the rate of 
permeation but increasing the pressure (with compressed air at least) would 
probably just lead to increased contamination of the internal gas fill with 
atmospheric gasses. I would think the best way to preserve the fill would 
be to have the same atmosphere external to the envelope as there is 
internally (not so easy). Failing that, keeping them cold should help but I 
wouldn't expect miracles.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/10f2fd5e-50c5-4d53-b034-e54a1f73f6cc%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.