[neonixie-l] Re: IN-13 Lifespan

[TheJBW]

Looking forward to it. Also, reading back, I realized that it's not 
intuitively clear what I mean by "full scale" or "half scale", so here are 
some pictures. 5mA for the half scale one and 11mA for the full scale. Note 
that the tubes look *much* dimmer than this as it was taken in a dark room 
with a long exposure.

On Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 2:33:57 PM UTC-8, gregebert wrote:
>
> I'd rule-out voltage as the problem; consider neon devices to be 
> current-controlled (more current --> brighter, etc). When you drive a neon 
> device from a voltage-source, there usually a current-limiting resistor (or 
> a transistor) that determines how the neon device operates.
>
> If you are only pumping 11mA intermittently, and most of the time it's 
> low/zero current, it doesn't seem reasonable that excess current is causing 
> your tube to fail. The data you provided doesn't reveal anything suspicious 
> to me.
>
> I'm wondering if you have a bad batch of tubes ?
>
> I think I will setup my bench supply with an IN-9 (that's all I have) and 
> see what happens after several days at 6mA. Stay tuned.
>
>
>

 


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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-13 Lifespan

[TheJBW]

Alright,
I did a little investigation. Hopefully, someone can point out the "oh god, 
you're overdriving them" problem...

Investigation steps:
1. Scope HV line (HV supply is TES 1364 module)
2. Multimeter on 220Ω shunt resistor to get I_control
3. Input AC Signal -- steady 10kHz, varous levels
4. Input AC Modulation signal -- 10kHz AM'd 100% depth, 1Hz
5. DC Signal Input -- remove Microcontroller and input DC to 100kΩ resistor 
LPF before the voltage follower.

Results:
1. HV Line, no input signal: Mean = 143V, V_pp = 8V
2. HV Line, full scale input signal (1.8V PP 10kHz sine wave -- to front 
end): Mean = 143V, Vpp = 9V
3. Measure control current full system, suing AC signal input:
I_shunt, no signal = 1mA (micro is still here, did not scope micro, but 
I suspect it was putting out a small nonzero PWM value)
I_shunt, full scale = 11.5mA
4. Measure control current, DC injection to IN-13 driver:
Vin (V)   I_shunt (mA)Col Len. (cm)
-  ----
00.0450.5
12.41  2.5
24.95
49.410
4.5 10.9  11
511.4  11
613.9  11

I also measured the current through the cathode resistor (220k in series 
with the non-control cathode to ground):

Vin(V)  I_cath (mA)
  
0  0.04
0.5   0.26
2  0.38
4.5   0.5


So what we see is that under normal operation, the tubes should never see 
more than ~11mA, which is substantially higher than the expected max 
current to get the full scale, and these tubes have seen a couple of hours 
of burn in. 

tubetester.com's translated datasheet 
(http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/IN-13.pdf 
-- scroll down) agrees with everyone here, that the max working current 
*should* be ~5mA. I'll grant, my striking voltage is above the max. Taking 
a closer look at voltages,

I see that the voltage between the anode and the indicating cathode when 
the tube is at 0 scale is 111V. When I drive it to full scale, it rises to 
139V. If I'm reading the aforementioned datashee correctly, the 0 scale 
drop across the anode to indicating cathode should be at max 99V, so I'm 
out of spec but not grossly so.

The only thing I can think to do is adjust the HVPS to be driving them at a 
lower voltage (120V), but my recollection from when I breadboarded this is 
that they do not strike reliably below about 140V.

Okay, so this has been a huge ramble, but if any of you have any insight 
into this -- even if it only addresses a small part, it would be greatly 
appreciated.


On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 11:58:31 AM UTC-8, TheJBW wrote:
>
> Sadly, both tubes got tossed with the trash before I even made this post, 
> so no autopsy is possible. That said, I did inspect them visually. There 
> was definitely no visible darkening of the tube, but I couldn't get a good 
> look at the base of the cathode due to shielding. I would have noticed 
> sputtering (which I looked for) after the first failure when a new tube was 
> side by side with a tube destined to fail. The older tube was not 
> noticeably dimmer than the new one.
>
> Signs indicate that erosion is the cause however, because of said "tink" 
> -- The question is, could the sputtering have been confined to the area 
> very near the cathode? Plus, it would make sense that the "low scale" 
> portion of the cathode experienced much more erosion than the high scale, 
> as the control portion of the system has an auto high voltage power off 
> after 30 seconds but it would turn on when there were random transients 
> (ground bounce, etc) during the day, and then go back to sleep. During that 
> time, the tubes would be on for 30s with 0A control current. Perhaps that 
> was bad for them.
>
> I'll run a test / video for everyone with controlled current over the 
> weekend -- to demonstrate bar length at 0-15mA control currents.
>
> On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 1:57:18 PM UTC-8, Jon wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a good excuse for a tube autopsy...
>>
>> If you are indeed over-driving the current then you'll be sputtering 
>> material off the cathode which after a while will have two effects. Firstly 
>> there will be some gradual darkening of the tube as the material deposits 
>> elsewhere. And secondly you'll see gross physical erosion of the cathode - 
>> you can see a similar effect on dekatron cathodes where the glow has been 
>> sitting stationary for a very long time (usually the zero cathode of the 
>> tubes making up the higher order decades of a multi-tube counter). Given 
>> that you describe a 'tink' noise, my guess is that the cathode has eroded 
>> to the point where it physically 

[neonixie-l] Re: IN-13 Lifespan

[TheJBW]

Sadly, both tubes got tossed with the trash before I even made this post, 
so no autopsy is possible. That said, I did inspect them visually. There 
was definitely no visible darkening of the tube, but I couldn't get a good 
look at the base of the cathode due to shielding. I would have noticed 
sputtering (which I looked for) after the first failure when a new tube was 
side by side with a tube destined to fail. The older tube was not 
noticeably dimmer than the new one.

Signs indicate that erosion is the cause however, because of said "tink" -- 
The question is, could the sputtering have been confined to the area very 
near the cathode? Plus, it would make sense that the "low scale" portion of 
the cathode experienced much more erosion than the high scale, as the 
control portion of the system has an auto high voltage power off after 30 
seconds but it would turn on when there were random transients (ground 
bounce, etc) during the day, and then go back to sleep. During that time, 
the tubes would be on for 30s with 0A control current. Perhaps that was bad 
for them.

I'll run a test / video for everyone with controlled current over the 
weekend -- to demonstrate bar length at 0-15mA control currents.

On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 1:57:18 PM UTC-8, Jon wrote:
>
>
> Sounds like a good excuse for a tube autopsy...
>
> If you are indeed over-driving the current then you'll be sputtering 
> material off the cathode which after a while will have two effects. Firstly 
> there will be some gradual darkening of the tube as the material deposits 
> elsewhere. And secondly you'll see gross physical erosion of the cathode - 
> you can see a similar effect on dekatron cathodes where the glow has been 
> sitting stationary for a very long time (usually the zero cathode of the 
> tubes making up the higher order decades of a multi-tube counter). Given 
> that you describe a 'tink' noise, my guess is that the cathode has eroded 
> to the point where it physically broke, perhaps under the thermal stress of 
> being activated. Time for new tubes.
>
> The Soviet datasheets only promise 1000 hour life for IN-9 - I can't find 
> a similar overall guaranteed life specification for IN-13. My experience is 
> that they will last much longer than that if not overdriven.
>
> With regard to the current required to achieve full scale, yes there's 
> normally some cathode poisoning which needs to be burned off when you first 
> fire up the tubes (worse on IN-9 than IN-13), but then they should settle 
> down and operate at the specified sensitivity. The last centimetre or so of 
> the cathode is difficult to illuminate even in a well 'oiled' tube - they 
> lose linearity at the upper extreme. Best thing to do is not to worry about 
> trying to light up this bit.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jon.
>  
>

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[neonixie-l] IN-13 Lifespan

[TheJBW]

About 1.5years ago, I built this really nice stereo vu-meter using IN-13 
bargraph tubes. About two weeks ago, one of the tubes made a "tink" sound 
and the current control went away -- the tube stayed ignited, but the "bar" 
was stuck at the bottom. I noticed that the spacer at the far end of the 
tube was also suddenly free. I figured this was an unlikely failure, so I 
replaced the tube the spare stock. Unfortunately, one week later, the tube 
on the other channel did the exact same thing! I've attached pictures of my 
drive and power circuitry -- the signal conditioning circuitry is omitted, 
but I think it unlikely to be relevant. I figure something must be wrong 
with my circuit that is causing early death, but I'm not sure as to what. 
Ideas anyone?

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: INS-1 flickering

[TheJBW]

Gene,
It is possible, although I somewhat doubt it. The supply source is a 12V 
cheapo amazon 2A unit driving a Tayloredge 1364 module on a Tayloredge 1355 
backplane (along with 6 IN12As). 

The 12V supply is driving several other modules (an IN13 module that I 
built -- which is powered by an independent 1364 taking 12V input), a 
raspberry pi, an amp, and some low current incandescent indicators. While 
these obviously will load the power supply randomly over time, peak draw is 
on the order of 750mA and all of this hardware was installed weeks before 
the flickering began.

In any case, definitely strange and maybe a unique case, but perhaps worth 
using a test rig on any INS-1s that are unstable but might be saved.

-Bill

On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 6:10:01 PM UTC-7, Gene Segal wrote:
>
> Bill, thanks for reporting! That's very useful information. Looks like it 
> went stable ultimately. It's strange that it was stable for the first two 
> weeks; if there was a "burn in" I would think the lamp would act up right 
> away. Maybe voltage fluctuated in the device?
>
> Gene
>
> On Oct 3, 2016, at 6:01 PM, TheJBW <the...@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> Gene (and anyone else tracking this),
> It's been another six months and the INS-1 in question is still soldiering 
> on flicker-free and fully bright. If it ever goes bad again, I'll make a 
> point of picking this thread back up.
>
> -Bill
>
> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:37:11 AM UTC-7, Gene Segal wrote:
>>
>> Bill, excellent observation! I almost didn't recognize my own post from 
>> 2011, thanks for digging that up!))
>>
>> I'm curious if that INS-1 you reported about, which went stable, will 
>> stay stable long-term. Please do report. 
>>
>> Best regards, Gene 
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2016, at 1:14 AM, TheJBW <the...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is an ancient topic, I know, but I wanted to chime in. Back in late 
>> December, I built a clock which uses an INS-1 as an AM/PM indicator (so on 
>> 12hr / day). With the correct polarity, the lamp was 100% fine for the 
>> first two weeks or so, and then began to exhibit the flickering phenomenon 
>> described here. It was a mild annoyance, but I didn't have time to address 
>> it, as it was soldered in place and enclosed behind acrylic. Having 
>> forgotten about it entirely for a few months, I was looking at it last 
>> week, and noticed that it doesn't flicker anymore. I've been keeping an eye 
>> on it since, and have seen no hint whatsoever of flicker. So it seems, at 
>> least for a tiny sample size, that this self oscillation / flicker may 
>> simply go away after a 'burn-in' period.
>>
>> -Bill
>>
>> On Saturday, February 12, 2011 at 5:27:01 PM UTC-8, Gene Segal wrote:
>>>
>>> I have observed the following behavior of ИНС-1:
>>>
>>> With proper polarity connection, and rated current/voltage applied per 
>>> spec sheet, SOME of the lamps exhibit unstable behavior, where they start 
>>> pulsating sporadically.  Others do not show this behavior.  I would not 
>>> call it a flicker (if flicker is defined as sporadic on/off condition), but 
>>> a periodic pulsation, a kind of internal thermodynamic feedback loop, once 
>>> set into pulsate mode, will tend to stay in that mode.  In that sense, it 
>>> is stable, but in the sense that it happens sporadically (probably a 
>>> function of ambient temperature or light), it is unstable.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>>
>>> -- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: INS-1 flickering

[TheJBW]

Gene (and anyone else tracking this),
It's been another six months and the INS-1 in question is still soldiering 
on flicker-free and fully bright. If it ever goes bad again, I'll make a 
point of picking this thread back up.

-Bill

On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:37:11 AM UTC-7, Gene Segal wrote:
>
> Bill, excellent observation! I almost didn't recognize my own post from 
> 2011, thanks for digging that up!))
>
> I'm curious if that INS-1 you reported about, which went stable, will stay 
> stable long-term. Please do report. 
>
> Best regards, Gene 
>
> On Mar 28, 2016, at 1:14 AM, TheJBW <the...@gmail.com > 
> wrote:
>
> This is an ancient topic, I know, but I wanted to chime in. Back in late 
> December, I built a clock which uses an INS-1 as an AM/PM indicator (so on 
> 12hr / day). With the correct polarity, the lamp was 100% fine for the 
> first two weeks or so, and then began to exhibit the flickering phenomenon 
> described here. It was a mild annoyance, but I didn't have time to address 
> it, as it was soldered in place and enclosed behind acrylic. Having 
> forgotten about it entirely for a few months, I was looking at it last 
> week, and noticed that it doesn't flicker anymore. I've been keeping an eye 
> on it since, and have seen no hint whatsoever of flicker. So it seems, at 
> least for a tiny sample size, that this self oscillation / flicker may 
> simply go away after a 'burn-in' period.
>
> -Bill
>
> On Saturday, February 12, 2011 at 5:27:01 PM UTC-8, Gene Segal wrote:
>>
>> I have observed the following behavior of ИНС-1:
>>
>> With proper polarity connection, and rated current/voltage applied per 
>> spec sheet, SOME of the lamps exhibit unstable behavior, where they start 
>> pulsating sporadically.  Others do not show this behavior.  I would not 
>> call it a flicker (if flicker is defined as sporadic on/off condition), but 
>> a periodic pulsation, a kind of internal thermodynamic feedback loop, once 
>> set into pulsate mode, will tend to stay in that mode.  In that sense, it 
>> is stable, but in the sense that it happens sporadically (probably a 
>> function of ambient temperature or light), it is unstable.
>>
>> Gene
>>
>> -- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: INS-1 flickering

[TheJBW]

Will do! I've set myself a reminder for a few months from now, so I'll update 
either way.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: INS-1 flickering

[TheJBW]

This is an ancient topic, I know, but I wanted to chime in. Back in late 
December, I built a clock which uses an INS-1 as an AM/PM indicator (so on 
12hr / day). With the correct polarity, the lamp was 100% fine for the 
first two weeks or so, and then began to exhibit the flickering phenomenon 
described here. It was a mild annoyance, but I didn't have time to address 
it, as it was soldered in place and enclosed behind acrylic. Having 
forgotten about it entirely for a few months, I was looking at it last 
week, and noticed that it doesn't flicker anymore. I've been keeping an eye 
on it since, and have seen no hint whatsoever of flicker. So it seems, at 
least for a tiny sample size, that this self oscillation / flicker may 
simply go away after a 'burn-in' period.

-Bill

On Saturday, February 12, 2011 at 5:27:01 PM UTC-8, Gene Segal wrote:
>
> I have observed the following behavior of ИНС-1:
>
> With proper polarity connection, and rated current/voltage applied per 
> spec sheet, SOME of the lamps exhibit unstable behavior, where they start 
> pulsating sporadically.  Others do not show this behavior.  I would not 
> call it a flicker (if flicker is defined as sporadic on/off condition), but 
> a periodic pulsation, a kind of internal thermodynamic feedback loop, once 
> set into pulsate mode, will tend to stay in that mode.  In that sense, it 
> is stable, but in the sense that it happens sporadically (probably a 
> function of ambient temperature or light), it is unstable.
>
> Gene
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: TaylorEdge SmartNixies and Arduino / AVR

[TheJBW]

John,

Thanks for your detailed reply. I hadn't had a chance to touch the Nixies 
for two months, so it's sat idle until today. I messed around with the code 
and it turns out that the addressing was the problem (I never doubted that 
the smart nixie modules were working correctly :-) ). What I found is that 
the Arduino I2C insists on using 7 bit addressing with a left shift, so I 
had to *right shift* my effective address. The code that works (I've tested 
it with an individual address instead of iterating and fun the individual 
test for the first five addresses in the space to confirm that something 
else isn't happening).
Here is my working code that simply counts 0-9 and loops:

#include 

void setup()
{
  Wire.begin(); // join i2c bus (address optional for master)
  Serial.begin(9600);


  for(byte j = 0; j < 6; j++)
  {
  Wire.beginTransmission(0x08 + j); // transmit to tube address
  Wire.write(0x0B);
  Wire.write(50);
  Wire.endTransmission();// stop transmitting
  }
}


void loop()
{
  for(byte i = 0; i < 10; i++)
  {
for(byte j = 0; j < 6; j++)
{
Wire.beginTransmission(0x08 + j); // transmit to tube address
Wire.write(0);
Wire.write(i);
Wire.endTransmission();// stop transmitting
}
Serial.println(i);
delay(50);
  }
}

Thanks again for your help and responsiveness. 

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 3:16:59 PM UTC-7, taylorjpt wrote:
>
> The flash is the charge coupled from the fast rising transistor drains 
> coupled into the gates that turns on all segments just before the processor 
> boots and sets all segments to off.  This is the result of avoiding putting 
> pull down resistors on every gate for space considerations.
>
> The first thing to check is whether you are getting an ACK from the first 
> address write to the device, 0x10 for write and 0x11 for read:  Note that 
> 0x10/0x11 is the full 8 bit address of the device with the Read/nWrite bit 
> included and
> not a 7 bit address that needs to be shifted left to be 0x20 and 0x21 for 
> write and read respectively.  This can be clearly seen in figures 16a and 
> 16b of the datasheet (
> http://www.tayloredge.com/storefront/SmartNixie/DataSheets/Datasheet_SmartNixie.pdf).
>   
> If you are getting the ACK then the addressing is correct and then you can 
> move on to register access problems.
>
> jt
>
> On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 10:47:57 AM UTC-7, TheJBW wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> Thanks for the advice. I definitely had the polarity of the switches 
>> wrong in my head. Unfortunately, I am still getting no joy out of the 
>> tubes. After a long power off, they will flash briefly when brought up, so 
>> I am fairly confident that the micro is alive. Voltages look good, and I am 
>> seeing clean pulses on the i2c lines... I tried poking the brightness 
>> register as in the datasheet, just in case, as well.
>>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: TaylorEdge SmartNixies and Arduino / AVR

[TheJBW]

John,

Thanks for the advice. I definitely had the polarity of the switches wrong in 
my head. Unfortunately, I am still getting no joy out of the tubes. After a 
long power off, they will flash briefly when brought up, so I am fairly 
confident that the micro is alive. Voltages look good, and I am seeing clean 
pulses on the i2c lines... I tried poking the brightness register as in the 
datasheet, just in case, as well.

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[neonixie-l] TaylorEdge SmartNixies and Arduino / AVR

[TheJBW]

Has anyone used the Taylor Electronics Smart Nixie modules with an Arduino 
or bare AVR? I've been trying to get a simple single tube test to work and 
have been banging my head against the wall... I just want a test routine, 
for now that lets me write a digit over I2C.

Basically, I've connected the smart socket to SCL, SDA (with 2.2k pullups 
to +5V), GND and +5V on the Arduino board, am using a TES1364 wired to 
+170V. Occassionally, I'll get a '0' or '1' display, but with zero 
consistency. Yes, I've set all the DIP switches to 'OFF' which should 
correspond with and address of 0x10.

My code:
#include Wire.h

void setup()
{
  Wire.begin(); // join i2c bus (address optional for master)
  Serial.begin(9600);
}

void loop()
{
  for(byte i = 0; i  10; i++)
  {
Wire.beginTransmission(0x10); // transmit to tube address
Wire.write(0x00);
Wire.write(i);  //number
Wire.endTransmission();// stop transmitting
Serial.println(i);
delay(500);
  }
}



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