Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Mac Doktor]

> On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:55 PM, Gary Gaspar  wrote:
> 
> One nick & some copper showing when I was pulling out a long wire which was 
> LIVE many wires could not turn everything off almost cost me. Clock on my 
> wrist showed me time was ticking lost connection on pipe when my legs 
> buckled.  

I'd quote the Monty Python "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch here but this is too 
scary. I was drilling out a hole to run the wires for a satellite dish (the old 
10'/3m kind) and suddenly realized I was right next to where the mains came 
into the basement. It was nothing but a piece of heavy gauge romex with the 
flexible metal sheath run through a small hole.

I don't think it would meet code today.


[the quote is "luxury"]


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

Nately: "...it's better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees."
Old Man: "You have it backwards: it is better to live on your feet, than to die 
on your knees."—Catch-22

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Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Gary Gaspar]

it is the connection & how good AC DC it does not matter A good ground A
good connection you can be toast. Saw the smoke come from my finger 1 leg
480 ac my other hand was on a long pipe not grounded to well. 480 ac on wet
concrete many times was a maintenance supervisor / electrician. One nick &
some copper showing when I was pulling out a long wire which was LIVE many
wires could not turn everything off almost cost me. Clock on my wrist
showed me time was ticking lost connection on pipe when my legs buckled.

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 7:10 AM Robert G. Schaffrath <
robert.schaffr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Indeed. In the earlier days of me being licensed, my HF rig zapped me a
> few times due to problematic grounding issues. Seemed to have the most
> problems on 75m and 10m.
>
> On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 6:30:01 PM UTC-4, Terry Bowman wrote:
>>
>>
>> RF burns are the worst. Tesla put thimbles on his fingers.
>>
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Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Robert G. Schaffrath]

Indeed. In the earlier days of me being licensed, my HF rig zapped me a few 
times due to problematic grounding issues. Seemed to have the most problems 
on 75m and 10m.

On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 6:30:01 PM UTC-4, Terry Bowman wrote:
>
>
> RF burns are the worst. Tesla put thimbles on his fingers.
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Mac Doktor]

> On Oct 29, 2019, at 5:42 PM, HuggerMugger  wrote:
> 
> I think the main problem with electrickery is that AC may get your heart into 
> fibrillation, whereas DC causes severe burning. A heart that is running wild 
> may be easier to get back to normal operation than a heart that is barbequed.


RF burns are the worst. Tesla put thimbles on his fingers.


> On Oct 28, 2019, at 10:21 PM, Charles MacDonald  wrote:
> 
> dry hands and series resistance can keep the current down to levels that you 
> can survive...


Keep your left hand in your back pocket.


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

"I don't even gargle Listerine. I heard it kills germs on contact and I don't 
like the idea of somethin' dyin' in my mouth."—Jim Stafford

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Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[HuggerMugger]

I think the main problem with electrickery is that AC may get your heart into 
fibrillation, whereas DC causes severe burning. A heart that is running wild 
may be easier to get back to normal operation than a heart that is barbequed.

/Magnus

From: Bill Notfaded 
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 10:25 PM
To: neonixie-l 
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

I think it's the current that can really kill you not so much the volts.  
Static electricity can be hundreds of thousands of volts... But there isn't 
much current there.  Take 4 or 5 amps at almost any voltage and it can pretty 
easily kill you. 

Bill

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 7:21 PM Charles MacDonald  wrote:

  On 2019-02-01 3:19 a.m., Thomas Kummer wrote:
  >  Or, is it the fact that 150-170V DC isn’t as dangerous as everyone makes 
it out to be? I mean either way I know I should be more careful. I guess what 
I’m getting at is what are the chances of me accidentally doing any significant 
 harm to myself from a Nixie project?
  > 

  it is not the Voltage that gets you but the current. !!!

  dry hands and series resistance can keep the current down to levels that 
  you can survive...

  -- 
  Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario
  cm...@zeusprune.ca  Just Beyond the Fringe
  No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail.

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Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Bill Notfaded]

I think it's the current that can really kill you not so much the volts.
Static electricity can be hundreds of thousands of volts... But there isn't
much current there.  Take 4 or 5 amps at almost any voltage and it can
pretty easily kill you.

Bill

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 7:21 PM Charles MacDonald  wrote:

> On 2019-02-01 3:19 a.m., Thomas Kummer wrote:
> >  Or, is it the fact that 150-170V DC isn’t as dangerous as everyone
> makes it out to be? I mean either way I know I should be more careful. I
> guess what I’m getting at is what are the chances of me accidentally doing
> any significant  harm to myself from a Nixie project?
> >
>
> it is not the Voltage that gets you but the current. !!!
>
> dry hands and series resistance can keep the current down to levels that
> you can survive...
>
> --
> Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario
> cm...@zeusprune.ca  Just Beyond the Fringe
> No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail.
>
> --
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> .
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Charles MacDonald]

On 2019-02-01 3:19 a.m., Thomas Kummer wrote:

 Or, is it the fact that 150-170V DC isn’t as dangerous as everyone makes it 
out to be? I mean either way I know I should be more careful. I guess what I’m 
getting at is what are the chances of me accidentally doing any significant  
harm to myself from a Nixie project?



it is not the Voltage that gets you but the current. !!!

dry hands and series resistance can keep the current down to levels that 
you can survive...


--
Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario
cm...@zeusprune.ca  Just Beyond the Fringe
No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail.

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Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Mac Doktor]

> On Oct 28, 2019, at 11:49 AM, Robert G. Schaffrath 
>  wrote:
> 
> On the AC side, I have been shocked by 10,000 VAC from an oil burner 
> transformer and 15,000 VAC from a large neon sign transformer. All basically 
> lucky situations where I was thrown clear from the source.

In High School a friend of mine accidentally grabbed both wires of a furnace 
transformer. I wasn't there at the time but the witness told me it was pretty 
scary.

I had both terminals of a photoflash cap touch the palm of my hand once. Ouch.

The only other HV sources I've been zapped by several times are Helium-Neon 
laser power supplies. They have a really nice snap.


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

Male voice: "That accident over in Red Sector L destroyed another 63 personnel, 
giving them a total of 242 lost to our 195. Keep up the good work and prevent 
accidents. This shift is concluded."—THX 1138

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Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Thomas Kummer]

That’s definitely a good way of putting it. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 1, 2019, at 19:08, Bill van Dijk  wrote:
> 
> To put it in some perspective, yes, high voltage is not a safe thing. How 
> unsafe is it? How many people work with these items that "can kill" you? How 
> often do you hear of someone getting killed by their amp, TV, or whatever? If 
> nothing else, we should know of a few on this group?
> 
> Be safe, but not paranoid.
> 
> Bill
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of Thomas Kummer
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2019 6:55 PM
> To: neonixie-l 
> Subject: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?
> 
> Thanks for the insight. It is good to know that I probably won’t die from my 
> own stupidity. That being said I will definitely be more careful. I haven’t 
> shocked myself yet today, so that’s an okay start. 
> 
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RE: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Bill van Dijk]

To put it in some perspective, yes, high voltage is not a safe thing. How 
unsafe is it? How many people work with these items that "can kill" you? How 
often do you hear of someone getting killed by their amp, TV, or whatever? If 
nothing else, we should know of a few on this group?

Be safe, but not paranoid.

Bill

-Original Message-
From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Thomas Kummer
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2019 6:55 PM
To: neonixie-l 
Subject: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

Thanks for the insight. It is good to know that I probably won’t die from my 
own stupidity. That being said I will definitely be more careful. I haven’t 
shocked myself yet today, so that’s an okay start. 

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[neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Thomas Kummer]

Thanks for the insight. It is good to know that I probably won’t die from my 
own stupidity. That being said I will definitely be more careful. I haven’t 
shocked myself yet today, so that’s an okay start. 

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RE: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Bill van Dijk]

I once worked with an old fellow who was in charge of the company’s small 
equipment. We never went near him when he had a small engine running. His 
favorite prank was to grab the top of the sparkplug (which did not appear to 
faze him at all) and then grab any unsuspecting victim in reach. Myself, I 
never remove the 115V while doing minor repairs (such as replacing an outlet or 
switch etc.). Touching the 115V does not bother me enough to justify the 
effort. The zap I got from a (disconnected) 27” color TV did get my immediate 
attention though. One facility I remember that was designated as a sensitive 
(very damp) area had only 42V AC outlets for small appliances. Anything with 
higher demand had to be moved out (that was prior to the invention of battery 
tools).

 

It seems different people have different tolerances, possibly something to do 
with skin types and conditions. Safety rules are therefore based on the lowest 
common denominator.

 

Bill

 

From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of alb.001 alb.001
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2019 1:55 PM
To: neonixie-l 
Subject: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

 

I was taught that anything over about 40 volts  either AC or DC  should be 
avoided.   Saying that I have been zapped by the 340 volts of a camera flash 
capacitor strong enough to make me jump  but watched in fascination as I drew a 
spark from cold cathode power supply to my finger tip  which was probably over 
1000 volts but high frequency and low current.   As others have said,  your 
skin resistance varies all over depending on your age, emotions, relative 
humidity age etc etc  , so the chance of drawing a significant voltage and 
current is not predictable.  I always avoid contact with anything over 12 volts 
just in case.  there is always a possibility of electrocution and we all need 
to be careful.

Phil B.

 

-- Original Message -- 
From: gregebert mailto:gregeb...@hotmail.com> > 
Date: February 1, 2019 at 10:04 AM 

Here is a link I found : 
https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physics/p616/safety/fatal_current.html 

The fatal current range is 100-200mA . How they determined this is probably an 
ethical question. 

 

As you said, having series resistance is what can save you, unless you touch 
the other side, such as across a capacitor, then you are unprotected. 

 

Skin-resistance varies wildly; I measured my dry skin resistance between 3 and 
8 megs 

Wet skin resistance was 300-600K 

I would NOT rely on those numbers, because as I measured it the value wasnt 
stable, even if I tried gripping the leads tightly. 

 

If your design is isolated, just be sure never to touch more than 1 circuit 
point. Remember that any test equipment (such as a scope) connected to your 
circuit will usually adda path to ground, which means your circuit is NOT 
isolated anymore. 

If your circuit is hot, use an isolation transformer. But beware that 
connecting any grounded test equipment will undo the benefit of isolation. 

 

 

 

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Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[David Forbes]

I designed my Nixie watches with very small capacitors in the voltage
tripler, to minimize the danger. Nixie tubes don't mind having many volts
of ripple in the power.


On Fri, Feb 1, 2019, 1:19 AM Thomas Kummer  I’m very reckless when it comes to my Nixie projects. I’ve shocked myself
> with 150 - 170V DC more times than I care to admit, and every time I’ve
> done it, the shock isn’t that bad. However, every time I’ve done it, my
> hands have been dry, and there’s been a series resistor somewhere in the
> circuit. I’ve been tazed before, and the Nixie 150-170V is no where near as
> bad. Is it the resistors that have saved me, and I should thank my lucky
> stars that they were there? Or, is it the fact that 150-170V DC isn’t as
> dangerous as everyone makes it out to be? I mean either way I know I should
> be more careful. I guess what I’m getting at is what are the chances of me
> accidentally doing any significant  harm to myself from a Nixie project?
>
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[neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[alb.001 alb.001]

 
  I was taught that anything over about 40 volts  either AC or DC  should be avoided.   Saying that I have been zapped by the 340 volts of a camera flash capacitor strong enough to make me jump  but watched in fascination as I drew a spark from cold cathode power supply to my finger tip  which was probably over 1000 volts but high frequency and low current.   As others have said,  your skin resistance varies all over depending on your age, emotions, relative humidity age etc etc  , so the chance of drawing a significant voltage and current is not predictable.  I always avoid contact with anything over 12 volts just in case.  there is always a possibility of electrocution and we all need to be careful.
  Phil B.
  
  
   -- Original Message --
   From: gregebert 
   Date: February 1, 2019 at 10:04 AM
   
   
   
Here is a link I found : 
https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physics/p616/safety/fatal_current.html

 The fatal current range is 100-200mA . How they determined this is probably an ethical question.
 


 


 As you said, having series resistance is what can save you, unless you touch the other side, such as across a capacitor, then you are unprotected.


 


 Skin-resistance varies wildly; I measured my dry skin resistance between 3 and 8 megs


 Wet skin resistance was 300-600K


 I would NOT rely on those numbers, because as I measured it the value wasnt stable, even if I tried gripping the leads tightly.


 


 If your design is isolated, just be sure never to touch more than 1 circuit point. Remember that any test equipment (such as a scope) connected to your circuit will usually adda path to ground, which means your circuit is NOT isolated anymore.


 If your circuit is hot, use an isolation transformer. But beware that connecting any grounded test equipment will undo the benefit of isolation.


 


 

   
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Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[gregebert]

Here is a link I found : 
https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physics/p616/safety/fatal_current.html
The fatal current range is 100-200mA . How they determined this is probably 
an ethical question.

As you said, having series resistance is what can save you, unless you 
touch the other side, such as across a capacitor, then you are unprotected.

Skin-resistance varies wildly; I measured my dry skin resistance between 3 
and 8 megs
Wet skin resistance was 300-600K
I would NOT rely on those numbers, because as I measured it the value wasnt 
stable, even if I tried gripping the leads tightly.

If your design is isolated, just be sure never to touch more than 1 circuit 
point. Remember that any test equipment (such as a scope) connected to your 
circuit will usually adda path to ground, which means your circuit is NOT 
isolated anymore.
If your circuit is hot, use an isolation transformer. But beware that 
connecting any grounded test equipment will undo the benefit of isolation.


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RE: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Tidak Ada]

It's not the voltage that causes death the, but the current!
Remember an electric fence for cattle has a voltage of several kV, whereas the 
current is limited to a few milliamps. In general a current above 10 mA is 
considered as deadly. Lower currents are painful, unpleasant or symptomless.
The strength of the current is depends highly of the resistance of the path it 
follows. Here in Netherlands the mains voltage is 230V, what results in peaks 
of 400V at the top of the sine. If you stand in leather shoes on a wooden floor 
it gives a very unpleasant feeling, that gives a muscle contraction that lets 
you mostly to 'untouch' the contact the wire. But in case you have sweaty 
fingers and naked feet, it may be deadly.
In my working life I was involved in bio-physical research on smooth muscle. 
There was a strip of muscle placed in a bath with a physiological solution 
(Ringer's) between two electrodes for stimulation. The current pulses we needed 
to activate the sample where in the range of several amperes! The main of the 
current was lead trough the Ringer's solution that functioned as a 'shunt'!!

Once, I made an unintended contact between my upper lip and a scope CRT under 
800V, but a current limited by the EY50 diode to a few mA's, I survived, but 
was ferry impressed!

Anyhow, it is important to AVOID contact with voltages over 30 Volts, the 
voltage was used in 'farm radio's' in the US.

eric

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] Namens 
Paul Andrews
Verzonden: vrijdag 1 februari 2019 12:16
Aan: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

Ugh. Autocomplete massacred that last paragraph.

> On Feb 1, 2019, at 6:07 AM, Paul Andrews  wrote:
> 
> The following is not in any way advice;
> 
> This is what I have heard; The heart can be stopped by a few mA at 9V. 
> Applying that to the skin will not get it to the heart because the skin is a 
> good insulator. You need enough voltage to break down that resistance, or 
> there needs to be a physical break in the skin. In addition current needs to 
> flow across the heart, in other words it needs to enter on one side and leave 
> on the other. You need to make a circuit with your body, this is could be 
> done by holding on to the HV with one hand, and a grounded connection with 
> the other. One reason HV can be dangerous is that it can break down materials 
> that would normally act as an insulator, making it more likely that the 
> circuit can be completed.
> 
> You will notice that birds don’t drop dead when the perch on HV cables. 
> That’s because theirs nowhere for the current to flow.
> 
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Re: [neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Paul Andrews]

Ugh. Autocomplete massacred that last paragraph.

> On Feb 1, 2019, at 6:07 AM, Paul Andrews  wrote:
> 
> The following is not in any way advice;
> 
> This is what I have heard; The heart can be stopped by a few mA at 9V. 
> Applying that to the skin will not get it to the heart because the skin is a 
> good insulator. You need enough voltage to break down that resistance, or 
> there needs to be a physical break in the skin. In addition current needs to 
> flow across the heart, in other words it needs to enter on one side and leave 
> on the other. You need to make a circuit with your body, this is could be 
> done by holding on to the HV with one hand, and a grounded connection with 
> the other. One reason HV can be dangerous is that it can break down materials 
> that would normally act as an insulator, making it more likely that the 
> circuit can be completed.
> 
> You will notice that birds don’t drop dead when the perch on HV cables. 
> That’s because theirs nowhere for the current to flow.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google 
> Groups "neonixie-l" group.
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> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
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[neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Paul Andrews]

The following is not in any way advice;

This is what I have heard; The heart can be stopped by a few mA at 9V. Applying 
that to the skin will not get it to the heart because the skin is a good 
insulator. You need enough voltage to break down that resistance, or there 
needs to be a physical break in the skin. In addition current needs to flow 
across the heart, in other words it needs to enter on one side and leave on the 
other. You need to make a circuit with your body, this is could be done by 
holding on to the HV with one hand, and a grounded connection with the other. 
One reason HV can be dangerous is that it can break down materials that would 
normally act as an insulator, making it more likely that the circuit can be 
completed.

You will notice that birds don’t drop dead when the perch on HV cables. That’s 
because theirs nowhere for the current to flow.

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[neonixie-l] How dangerous is 150V - 170V DC?

[Thomas Kummer]

I’m very reckless when it comes to my Nixie projects. I’ve shocked myself with 
150 - 170V DC more times than I care to admit, and every time I’ve done it, the 
shock isn’t that bad. However, every time I’ve done it, my hands have been dry, 
and there’s been a series resistor somewhere in the circuit. I’ve been tazed 
before, and the Nixie 150-170V is no where near as bad. Is it the resistors 
that have saved me, and I should thank my lucky stars that they were there? Or, 
is it the fact that 150-170V DC isn’t as dangerous as everyone makes it out to 
be? I mean either way I know I should be more careful. I guess what I’m getting 
at is what are the chances of me accidentally doing any significant  harm to 
myself from a Nixie project? 

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