[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[fixitsan]

Thanks to John R for pointing out the last link wasn't working for
anyone else except me.

The file should be available from the following

http://www.filefactory.com/file/cf22feb/n/IV17-IV4_comparison.doc

http://www.freefilehosting.net/iv17-iv4comparison


Chris

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[Tony Adams]

I've just looked through some displays, the only difference I can see
is the two IV-17s here (8909 and 9305) have a small dimple in the
centre of the shadowmask.

I also have a box of IV-4s dated 0286 which are printed using white
ink.

The 1000 hours lifetime is hopefully a misprint, there shouldn't be
that much difference in the build to shorten it by 9000 hours and why
continue to build a vastly inferior tube when you have a functionally
identical and improved design available?.
Tony.

On Nov 20, 10:43 pm, fixitsan  wrote:
> I've just had a look at all of the types of IV4 and IV17 tubes in my
> collection to try to establish what, if any, are the main differences.
>
> Due to the high res images producing a large file size I couldn't
> upload the document here, so I've posted it on 
> Mediafirehttp://www.mediafire.com/myfiles.php?r=mbvfp

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[fixitsan]

>
> The 1000 hours lifetime is hopefully a misprint, there shouldn't be
> that much difference in the build to shorten it by 9000 hours and why
> continue to build a vastly inferior tube when you have a functionally
> identical and improved design available?.
> Tony.

That is an excellent point Tony.
The cost to build the IV17 must be about the same as the IV4, so pin
compatibility means you would naturally choose the better tube for the
same price, and the low demand for the IV4 would put them out of
production, if there were major difference between them (and the cost
was the same)

I had an amusing thought, that the IV4 and the IV17 both continued to
be made just to make the factory appear to have a broader product
range.
Could there be a benefit to showing you had a wider range of products
in preference to producing higher volumes of a smaller range?

Chris

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[GastonP]

According to another manual (Vukolov) both have a life expectancy of
3,000 hours, there are small differences regarding filament voltages,
but the most important one I see is that the grid and anode voltages
are specified at 50V for the IV-4 and 25V for the IV-17.

Gaston

On Nov 21, 5:51 am, fixitsan  wrote:
> > The 1000 hours lifetime is hopefully a misprint, there shouldn't be
> > that much difference in the build to shorten it by 9000 hours and why
> > continue to build a vastly inferior tube when you have a functionally
> > identical and improved design available?.
> > Tony.

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[Tony Adams]

I found one of the single sheet datasheets in the IV-4 box from 1986
which seems to indicate an anode voltage of 25v and lifetime of 5000
hours, I could scan and upload it if there's any interest.

Tony.

On Nov 21, 12:31 pm, GastonP  wrote:
> According to another manual (Vukolov) both have a life expectancy of
> 3,000 hours, there are small differences regarding filament voltages,
> but the most important one I see is that the grid and anode voltages
> are specified at 50V for the IV-4 and 25V for the IV-17.
>
> Gaston
>
> On Nov 21, 5:51 am, fixitsan  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > The 1000 hours lifetime is hopefully a misprint, there shouldn't be
> > > that much difference in the build to shorten it by 9000 hours and why
> > > continue to build a vastly inferior tube when you have a functionally
> > > identical and improved design available?.
> > > Tony.

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[Tony Adams]

It seems an extreme way of expanding your product line though how
these things were arranged when the factory was probably just told to
make xx000's a year I don't know.

Would have been a lot more useful if they'd used the materials to make
bucketloads if IV-2s though, I have yet to find even one.

Tony.

On Nov 21, 8:51 am, fixitsan  wrote:
> > The 1000 hours lifetime is hopefully a misprint, there shouldn't be
> > that much difference in the build to shorten it by 9000 hours and why
> > continue to build a vastly inferior tube when you have a functionally
> > identical and improved design available?.
> > Tony.
>
> That is an excellent point Tony.
> The cost to build the IV17 must be about the same as the IV4, so pin
> compatibility means you would naturally choose the better tube for the
> same price, and the low demand for the IV4 would put them out of
> production, if there were major difference between them (and the cost
> was the same)
>
> I had an amusing thought, that the IV4 and the IV17 both continued to
> be made just to make the factory appear to have a broader product
> range.
> Could there be a benefit to showing you had a wider range of products
> in preference to producing higher volumes of a smaller range?
>
> Chris

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[fixitsan]

So we have 25V IV4's and 25V IV17's and then also 50V IV4's.

>From experience, they all run fine at 25V non-multiplexed and when
multplexing only 30-35V is required in most cases for both tubes.

RE the IV-2's, I saw some on eBay a couple of years ago, they sold
quickly as you would expect !

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[GastonP]

What I would really like to get is the IV-5. Like the IV-4 and IV-17,
but front view.

On Nov 22, 6:48 am, fixitsan  wrote:
> So we have 25V IV4's and 25V IV17's and then also 50V IV4's.
>
> From experience, they all run fine at 25V non-multiplexed and when
> multplexing only 30-35V is required in most cases for both tubes.
>
> RE the IV-2's, I saw some on eBay a couple of years ago, they sold
> quickly as you would expect !

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[Alex]

One point to consider would be how the manufacturer defines lifetime,
and what this means statistically.
This may explain the discrepancies in the lifetimes stated.

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[Jon Jackson]

On Sunday, November 20, 2011 3:43:40 PM UTC-7, fixitsan wrote: 
>
> I've just had a look at all of the types of IV4 and IV17 tubes in my
> collection to try to establish what, if any, are the main differences. 
>
> Due to the high res images producing a large file size I couldn't
> upload the document here, so I've posted it on Mediafire
> http://www.mediafire.com/myfiles.php?r=mbvfp 
>
>  
>
Does anyone still have this document available or a link to it?  I have 
some IV-4s as well as IV-17s to use in a 4play display.
 
Thanks,
 
Jon
 
 

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[Terry Kennedy]

On Aug 20, 8:13 am, Jon Jackson  wrote:
> Does anyone still have this document available or a link to it?  I have
> some IV-4s as well as IV-17s to use in a 4play display.

  I've put a copy at: http://www.tmk.com/transient/IV17-IV4_comparison.doc

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[fixitsan]

On Monday, August 20, 2012 11:05:15 PM UTC+1, Terry Kennedy wrote: 
>
> On Aug 20, 8:13 am, Jon Jackson  wrote: 
> > Does anyone still have this document available or a link to it?  I have 
> > some IV-4s as well as IV-17s to use in a 4play display. 
>
>   I've put a copy at: http://www.tmk.com/transient/IV17-IV4_comparison.doc 
>
 
Thanks, Terry.
I'm having problems recovering my copy here.
 
Chris

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[figureloop]

On Monday, November 21, 2011 12:51:05 AM UTC-8, fixitsan wrote:
>
>
> >
> > The 1000 hours lifetime is hopefully a misprint, there shouldn't be
> > that much difference in the build to shorten it by 9000 hours and why
> > continue to build a vastly inferior tube when you have a functionally
> > identical and improved design available?.
> > Tony.
>
> That is an excellent point Tony.
> The cost to build the IV17 must be about the same as the IV4, so pin
> compatibility means you would naturally choose the better tube for the
> same price, and the low demand for the IV4 would put them out of
> production, if there were major difference between them (and the cost
> was the same)
>
Not trying to be argumentative here, but "you would naturally choose the 
better tube for the
same price" made be chuckle, since, we are talking about tubes produced and 
used in the Soviet Union here.

The Soviet Union's economic system did not utilize the concept of "price" 
by definition, as it was communism.

Thus, it is entirely possible that causes purely political or otherwise 
unknown and about which it is difficult to speculate account for the 
existence and simultaneous production of these nearly identical tubes.
 

> I had an amusing thought, that the IV4 and the IV17 both continued to
> be made just to make the factory appear to have a broader product
> range.
> Could there be a benefit to showing you had a wider range of products
> in preference to producing higher volumes of a smaller range?
>
> Chris
>

That's actually a clever and insightful speculation about what might have 
gone on in the minds of communist factory managers. 

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[figureloop]

On Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:43:40 PM UTC-8, fixitsan wrote:
>
> I've just had a look at all of the types of IV4 and IV17 tubes in my
> collection to try to establish what, if any, are the main differences.
>
> Due to the high res images producing a large file size I couldn't
> upload the document here, so I've posted it on Mediafire
> http://www.mediafire.com/myfiles.php?r=mbvfp
>

I can't see whatever this is.  Email it to me and I'll host it on my web 
site for you.  crobcbo...@sbcbogusglobal.net 

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[Terry Kennedy]

On Aug 21, 2:01 pm, figureloop  wrote:
> Thus, it is entirely possible that causes purely political or otherwise
> unknown and about which it is difficult to speculate account for the
> existence and simultaneous production of these nearly identical tubes.

> That's actually a clever and insightful speculation about what might have
> gone on in the minds of communist factory managers.- Hide quoted text -

I can give you an even more bizarre example - the IV-26 dot indicator
tube was only made by Orzep, yet hundreds of thousands were apparently
shipped to Reflector (the VFD factory that made the IV-4 and IV-17)
for assembly into Elektronika 7 wall clocks built by Reflector. A
single Elektronika 7-06 uses 48 IV-26 tubes (and 1 IV-4) and has 432
hand-soldered connections between the tube pins and the circuit boards.

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[neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[Terry Kennedy]

On Aug 20, 8:13 am, Jon Jackson  wrote:
> Does anyone still have this document available or a link to it?  I have
> some IV-4s as well as IV-17s to use in a 4play display.

I got a question off-list which I figured would be useful to answer
here. The Elektronika 7-06 / 7-06K clocks use an IV-4 as a blinking
colon indicator, with all 18 elements wired together:
http://www.tmk.com/blog/6F5S8748-s.jpg

Even on Elektronikas which have been running for nearly 30 years and
have the worst tube wear on the IV-26 tubes, like this eBay auction:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221110674946 (no affiliation with the seller,
just a convenient example) the IV-4 is still in very good condition.
That's with a 50% duty cycle, cycling on and off every second. Even a
1990 Elektronika manual, toward the very end of production, still
lists the tube as an IV-4. All of the tubes I've seen have been
completely unlabeled - perhaps because the tubes were made by the same
factory that built the clocks, they didn't bother with individually
marking them with part numbers and OTK inspection.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[David Forbes]

On 8/21/12 11:01 AM, figureloop wrote:

Thus, it is entirely possible that causes purely political or otherwise
unknown and about which it is difficult to speculate account for the
existence and simultaneous production of these nearly identical tubes.


It's not just the Soviet Union where things like this happen. Look at China.

I once purchased a pair of identical Nerf guns which were sold in the 
same package, as a gift for my son. One was orange and the other was green.


After a couple weeks, he wanted to modify the guns. Specifically, he 
wanted to combine green parts and orange parts to make a two-tone gun.


I dutifully helped him disassemble the guns and tried to mate the orange 
left side with the green right side. However, they wouldn't fit.


It turns out that the company had used two entirely different molds, cut 
to approximately but not exactly the same shape, to make the two guns 
that were sold in the same retail package.


Explain that, O masters of mass production!

--
David Forbes, Tucson AZ

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[Jon Jackson]

Thanks, Terry, for posting the file.

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:23 PM, David Forbes  wrote:

> On 8/21/12 11:01 AM, figureloop wrote:
>
>> Thus, it is entirely possible that causes purely political or otherwise
>> unknown and about which it is difficult to speculate account for the
>> existence and simultaneous production of these nearly identical tubes.
>>
>
> It's not just the Soviet Union where things like this happen. Look at
> China.
>
> I once purchased a pair of identical Nerf guns which were sold in the same
> package, as a gift for my son. One was orange and the other was green.
>
> After a couple weeks, he wanted to modify the guns. Specifically, he
> wanted to combine green parts and orange parts to make a two-tone gun.
>
> I dutifully helped him disassemble the guns and tried to mate the orange
> left side with the green right side. However, they wouldn't fit.
>
> It turns out that the company had used two entirely different molds, cut
> to approximately but not exactly the same shape, to make the two guns that
> were sold in the same retail package.
>
> Explain that, O masters of mass production!
>
> --
> David Forbes, Tucson AZ
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[Charles MacDonald]

On 12-08-21 03:23 PM, David Forbes wrote:


I dutifully helped him disassemble the guns and tried to mate the orange
left side with the green right side. However, they wouldn't fit.

It turns out that the company had used two entirely different molds,

Explain that, O masters of mass production!



the Toy company placed the contract to make the Toys to two entirely 
different suppliers, with drawings sufficiently vague that they would 
not be billed for Precision manufacture.  Each Contractor dutifully made 
a mould, and assembled the Toys - the only Difference in the specs was 
the colour.  The packaging may have been done by a third contractor., or 
was provided to both manufacturers



--
Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario
cm...@zeusprune.ca  Just Beyond the Fringe
http://users.trytel.com/~cmacd/tubes.html
No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: The difference between IV4 and IV17 vfd tubes

[Charles MacDonald]

On 12-08-21 02:01 PM, figureloop wrote:

On Monday, November 21, 2011 12:51:05 AM UTC-8, fixitsan wrote:



Could there be a benefit to showing you had a wider range of products
in preference to producing higher volumes of a smaller range?



That's actually a clever and insightful speculation about what might
have gone on in the minds of communist factory managers.


Or there could have been one important customer (Read Military) who had 
designed one of them into a "secret" or "Special" product. and so the 
factory were given orders to produce the type.  The actuall difference 
may have been more special testing requirements rather than any major 
difference in construction.


(Further speculation could be that the "special" type was Only for 
Military use. while the later type was used commercially.)



--
Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario
cm...@zeusprune.ca  Just Beyond the Fringe
http://users.trytel.com/~cmacd/tubes.html
No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail.

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