Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

['jf...@my-deja.com' via neonixie-l]

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 2:06:42 PM UTC-8, Jeff Walton wrote:
>
> I have a clock that uses Raytheon CK8754 tubes that has 35 years 
> continuous use with no tube issues.  That's over 300,000 hours.  I hope 
> that the B7971's last as long.  I'll probably be gone by then.. 
>
> *Jeff *
>
I think I last posted about this more than five years ago.  A little more 
than 40 yers ago, I built three 6-digit clocks with B7971s.  They have been 
running 24/7/365.25, and there have been no tube failures, yet (one dead 
power transformer, some electrolytics, and one clock chip).  The tubes were 
cheap at the time (I think they were from John Meshna), so nothing was done 
in the design to extend their lifetime.  I also stocked up on spare tubes, 
and based on the current prices, I plan to use them to fund my retirement. 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[Michail1 via neonixie-l]

Jeff,
 
Of the 30 or so tubes I have at home, only 4 have the post.  (I will  check 
more when I get to work tomorrow.)
 
What I did notice is that not only did all 4 have the mica spacer at the  
top, but that all the other regular tubes have the spacer with the hole for 
the  post pre-punched out.  Also, the tubes with the post stand about 4mm 
taller  to account for the additional space needed for the post height.
 
Michail  
 

In a message dated 3/6/2016 3:53:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
jwalton...@gmail.com writes:

The tubes with the post (that I have) do not have mica spacers touching  
the glass at the top.  I'll dig them out and post a couple  photos. 


Jeff 


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Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[Instrument Resources of America]

Must be the same guy that I bought from. Each tube was wrapped up in a 
single thin layer of newsprint, and then laid in the box side to side 
against each other. And yes one did arrive broken, and he wouldn't do 
anything about it.Ira.


On 3/6/2016 2:08 PM, Nick wrote:

Odd this. I bought substantial batches of these (in the several 100s) from the 
guy that originally owned pretty much the world's supply many years ago - apart 
from those that broke in transit due to very poor packing, I've never had a 
failure.

Where are all these different tubes coming from...?



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Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[Jeff Walton]

I appreciate the sellers that post photos of the actual tubes operating.  
I've bought from postings without operating photos and in the past few years I 
have had about 10% with issues or poisoning of segments.  I've been able to 
bring back all of the poisoned segments but haven't tried to "fix" shorted 
segments. Not much can be done with opens.  
The tubes with the post (that I have) do not have mica spacers touching the 
glass at the top.  I'll dig them out and post a couple photos. 
Jeff 


 Original message 
From: Michail1 via neonixie-l  
Date: 3/6/2016  5:03 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's 


Jeff,
 
Sorry, I have not taken notes as to which the tubes were, although I have 
both types.  I did look at some to see that the ones WITH the needle still 
have the mica spacers at the top.  So, you should still be fine smacking 
them around.
 
The tubes with the little space needle uses wire coming up from the bottom 
to the clips.  The ones without the needle have the type of circuit board 
going up to the clips.  I believe the last two tubes I was 'playing' with 
are disconnected at the clip to the element (not the circuit/wire to the 
clip).
 
I could take pictures when I get to work of various tubes if you're looking 
for something specific.
 
There is a market.  You can post on ebay as people still want them, 
but I highly suggest you be honest with an element being bad and light it 
up.
 
 
Michail 
 
 

In a message dated 3/6/2016 1:47:41 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
jwalton...@gmail.com writes:

  
  Michail,
   
  Thanks for the 
  explanation and photos of the 7971 tubes.  I have several that I will try 
  to “repair” based on seeing what you have been able to fix.  There are 
  some of the early 7971 tubes that use a thin rod to the top of the tube for 
  support instead of the mica spacers and they may not respond too well to 
  shock.  The later tubes (64 and later) which have partial or full mica 
  spacers holding everything (top and bottom) should be fairly robust.  
  Have you noticed any more or less issues with the circuit board backplane vs 
  the wire interconnect versions?
   
  I also have a 
  couple tubes with a dead segment where I can visually see an open wire from 
  the pins to the segment.  Wasn’t thinking there was much of a market for 
  them but maybe for someone building a clock where the tens-hours is either 
one 
  or zero might be able to use them.  Much depends on the font that is 
  being used.
   
  
   
  Jeff
   
   
  
  
  From: 
  neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] 
  
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 12:04 PM
To: 
  neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Bad 
  B7971's
   
  
  Thought 
  I would share, althought I might have 
already.
  
   
  
  Last 
  purchase on ebay was a sign which was made up of 7 tubes and says 'GO 
  AWAY' or 'WELCOME' depending on the position of the switch. 6 more tubes 
  were to come with it.
  
   
  
  Well, 
  I took video of opening the 2 boxes just because of experience with prior 
  ebayers.  They were labeled from 1 - 13.  Well, there was only 12 
  tubes in the boxes (tube #12 was missing).  A slight resistance from the 
  seller, but it was hard to dispute video of the opening and counting of the 
  items.
  
   
  
  Of 
  the 12 tubes, 3 were overlapping and 1 had a bad 
  segment.
  
   
  
  Here 
  are those 3 tubes:
  
  https://www.dropbox.com/s/gkilytpol75hkpg/2015-12-05%2014.05.19-Mark.jpg
  
   
  
  Also, 
  a prior purchase of 6 tubes had 2 bad ones in it:
  
  https://www.dropbox.com/s/lcuilr9axdssz1y/7971-Tube-Short.jpg
  
   
  
  Michail 
  
  
   
  
   
  
  
  In a 
  message dated 3/6/2016 9:15:19 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
nickst...@gmail.com 
  writes:
  

I 
took a look at the cathodes under a good magnifier and a few of them you 
can 
definitely see are physically overlapping in the center of the segments and 
no deal of smacking the tube can get them to move...;-( I'll PM you later 
today. I will measure the resistance of the less obvious ones too, thanks 
for the hint! 

 

Cheers,

 

Nick
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Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[Michail1 via neonixie-l]

Jeff,
 
Sorry, I have not taken notes as to which the tubes were, although I have  
both types.  I did look at some to see that the ones WITH the needle still  
have the mica spacers at the top.  So, you should still be fine smacking  
them around.
 
The tubes with the little space needle uses wire coming up from the bottom  
to the clips.  The ones without the needle have the type of circuit board  
going up to the clips.  I believe the last two tubes I was 'playing' with  
are disconnected at the clip to the element (not the circuit/wire to the  
clip).
 
I could take pictures when I get to work of various tubes if you're looking 
 for something specific.
 
There is a market.  You can post on ebay as people still want them,  but I 
highly suggest you be honest with an element being bad and light it  up.
 
 
Michail  


 
In a message dated 3/6/2016 1:47:41 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
jwalton...@gmail.com writes:

 
Michail, 
Thanks for the  explanation and photos of the 7971 tubes.  I have several 
that I will try  to “repair” based on seeing what you have been able to fix. 
 There are  some of the early 7971 tubes that use a thin rod to the top of 
the tube for  support instead of the mica spacers and they may not respond 
too well to  shock.  The later tubes (64 and later) which have partial or 
full mica  spacers holding everything (top and bottom) should be fairly robust. 
  Have you noticed any more or less issues with the circuit board backplane 
vs  the wire interconnect versions? 
I also have a  couple tubes with a dead segment where I can visually see an 
open wire from  the pins to the segment.  Wasn’t thinking there was much of 
a market for  them but maybe for someone building a clock where the 
tens-hours is either one  or zero might be able to use them.  Much depends on 
the 
font that is  being used. 
 
Jeff 

 
 
From:  neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com]  
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 12:04 PM
To:  neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Bad  B7971's

 
Thought  I would share, althought I might have  already.
 

 
Last  purchase on ebay was a sign which was made up of 7 tubes and says 'GO 
 AWAY' or 'WELCOME' depending on the position of the switch. 6 more tubes  
were to come with it.
 

 
Well,  I took video of opening the 2 boxes just because of experience with 
prior  ebayers.  They were labeled from 1 - 13.  Well, there was only 12  
tubes in the boxes (tube #12 was missing).  A slight resistance from the  
seller, but it was hard to dispute video of the opening and counting of the  
items.
 

 
Of  the 12 tubes, 3 were overlapping and 1 had a bad  segment.
 

 
Here  are those 3 tubes:
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gkilytpol75hkpg/2015-12-05%2014.05.19-Mark.jpg
 

 
Also,  a prior purchase of 6 tubes had 2 bad ones in it:
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lcuilr9axdssz1y/7971-Tube-Short.jpg
 

 
Michail   
 

 

 
 
In a  message dated 3/6/2016 9:15:19 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
_nickstock@gmail.com_ (mailto:nickst...@gmail.com)   writes:

 
I  took a look at the cathodes under a good magnifier and a few of them you 
can  definitely see are physically overlapping in the center of the 
segments and  no deal of smacking the tube can get them to move...;-( I'll PM 
you 
later  today. I will measure the resistance of the less obvious ones too, 
thanks  for the hint!  
 

 
Cheers,
 

 
Nick




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Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[Michail1 via neonixie-l]

For me, I buy them all from various people on ebay.
 
Seems strange that these tubes receive such an impact from shipping that  
they would cross over.   I think people are selling them on ebay  knowing 
there is an issue with stuck segments already, but don't know about  smacking 
them and so they sell as 'untested'.
 
There is/was a specific seller on ebay (he is still selling Nixie stuff)  
and about a third of the 40 tubes were flawed in this way.  I posted and  
video showing him.  He wanted me to file a claim stating they  were damaged in 
shipping.  Not happy with this, I filed a claim with  paypal instead and 
shipped them back to him.  Strangely, several days after  getting them back, 
another seller (obviously a friend in the same area) had them  up for auction.
 
Michail  

In a message dated 3/6/2016 2:08:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
n...@desmith.net writes:
 
Where  are all these different tubes coming  from...?


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RE: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[Jeff Walton]

I bought some from an eBay seller in the San Diego area about a year ago.   He 
offered me as many as I wanted at $110 each.   Claimed that he had "several 
hundred" available.  He was able to pick tubes that I requested (different 
types of internal construction) so I know he had a bunch to choose from.  Can't 
afford to buy many at that price but they keep showing up on ebay.. 
Jeff 

 Original message 
From: Nick  
Date: 3/6/2016  4:08 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: neonixie-l  
Subject: RE: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's 

Odd this. I bought substantial batches of these (in the several 100s) from the 
guy that originally owned pretty much the world's supply many years ago - apart 
from those that broke in transit due to very poor packing, I've never had a 
failure.

Where are all these different tubes coming from...?

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RE: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[Nick]

Odd this. I bought substantial batches of these (in the several 100s) from the 
guy that originally owned pretty much the world's supply many years ago - apart 
from those that broke in transit due to very poor packing, I've never had a 
failure.

Where are all these different tubes coming from...?

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RE: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[Jeff Walton]

Michail,

 

Thanks for the explanation and photos of the 7971 tubes.  I have several that I 
will try to “repair” based on seeing what you have been able to fix.  There are 
some of the early 7971 tubes that use a thin rod to the top of the tube for 
support instead of the mica spacers and they may not respond too well to shock. 
 The later tubes (64 and later) which have partial or full mica spacers holding 
everything (top and bottom) should be fairly robust.  Have you noticed any more 
or less issues with the circuit board backplane vs the wire interconnect 
versions?

 

I also have a couple tubes with a dead segment where I can visually see an open 
wire from the pins to the segment.  Wasn’t thinking there was much of a market 
for them but maybe for someone building a clock where the tens-hours is either 
one or zero might be able to use them.  Much depends on the font that is being 
used.

 

 

Jeff

 

 

From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 12:04 PM
To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

 

Thought I would share, althought I might have already.

 

Last purchase on ebay was a sign which was made up of 7 tubes and says 'GO 
AWAY' or 'WELCOME' depending on the position of the switch. 6 more tubes were 
to come with it.

 

Well, I took video of opening the 2 boxes just because of experience with prior 
ebayers.  They were labeled from 1 - 13.  Well, there was only 12 tubes in the 
boxes (tube #12 was missing).  A slight resistance from the seller, but it was 
hard to dispute video of the opening and counting of the items.

 

Of the 12 tubes, 3 were overlapping and 1 had a bad segment.

 

Here are those 3 tubes:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gkilytpol75hkpg/2015-12-05%2014.05.19-Mark.jpg

 

Also, a prior purchase of 6 tubes had 2 bad ones in it:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lcuilr9axdssz1y/7971-Tube-Short.jpg

 

Michail 

 

 

In a message dated 3/6/2016 9:15:19 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
nickst...@gmail.com writes:

I took a look at the cathodes under a good magnifier and a few of them you can 
definitely see are physically overlapping in the center of the segments and no 
deal of smacking the tube can get them to move...;-( I'll PM you later today. I 
will measure the resistance of the less obvious ones too, thanks for the hint! 

 

Cheers,

 

Nick

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Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[Instrument Resources of America]

I've used this same 'smacking technique' to straighten up bent elements 
inside of such tubes, as Western Electric 'tennis ball' style of tubes 
where the glass support arbor is broken inside the tube. Have not broken 
one yet!!!   Ira.





On 3/6/2016 9:28 AM, Michail1 via neonixie-l wrote:

Nick,
I have unfortunately been very lucky in getting bad tubes from ebay.  
Probably have 20 or so now (broken, outgassed, missing segments).
I have taken the excessive risk in smacking them to get segments free 
of the ones that have overlapping and before and after pictures.  I 
think you will be surprised at how much impact the tubes can take 
before breaking.  That said, I have smacked them against my cupped 
hand to spread the impact point (not against a table).
I would say that I have recovered nearly all overlapping issue tubes.  
Obviously, you have to look at the overlap and take an educated guess 
at the angle you want to hit (multiple times with increasing force 
until resolved).
I do think in the years of tube smacking, I have only had one break in 
my hand.  Also, I have only made one tube bad in that the overlap 
dislodged; however, another segment stopped working (the connection 
from the circuit wire to the mica) and I can't even be sure the 
segment was not an issue prior to the smacking.

Michail Wilson
206-920-6312
In a message dated 3/6/2016 9:15:19 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
nickst...@gmail.com writes:


I took a look at the cathodes under a good magnifier and a few of
them you can definitely see are physically overlapping in the
center of the segments and no deal of smacking the tube can get
them to move...;-( I'll PM you later today. I will measure the
resistance of the less obvious ones too, thanks for the hint!

Cheers,

Nick

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Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[Michail1 via neonixie-l]

Thought I would share, althought I might have already.
 
Last purchase on ebay was a sign which was made up of 7 tubes and says 'GO  
AWAY' or 'WELCOME' depending on the position of the switch. 6 more tubes  
were to come with it.
 
Well, I took video of opening the 2 boxes just because of experience with  
prior ebayers.  They were labeled from 1 - 13.  Well, there was only  12 
tubes in the boxes (tube #12 was missing).  A slight resistance from the  
seller, but it was hard to dispute video of the opening and counting of the  
items.
 
Of the 12 tubes, 3 were overlapping and 1 had a bad segment.
 
Here are those 3 tubes:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gkilytpol75hkpg/2015-12-05%2014.05.19-Mark.jpg
 
Also, a prior purchase of 6 tubes had 2 bad ones in it:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lcuilr9axdssz1y/7971-Tube-Short.jpg
 
Michail  


 
In a message dated 3/6/2016 9:15:19 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
nickst...@gmail.com writes:

I took a look at the cathodes under a good magnifier and a few of  them you 
can definitely see are physically overlapping in the center of the  
segments and no deal of smacking the tube can get them to move...;-( I'll PM  
you 
later today. I will measure the resistance of the less obvious ones too,  
thanks for the hint!  


Cheers,


Nick



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Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[Michail1 via neonixie-l]

Nick,
 
I have unfortunately been very lucky in getting bad tubes from ebay.   
Probably have 20 or so now (broken, outgassed, missing segments).
 
I have taken the excessive risk in smacking them to get segments free of  
the ones that have overlapping and before and after pictures.  I think you  
will be surprised at how much impact the tubes can take before breaking.   
That said, I have smacked them against my cupped hand to spread the impact 
point  (not against a table).
 
I would say that I have recovered nearly all overlapping issue  tubes.  
Obviously, you have to look at the overlap and take an educated  guess at the 
angle you want to hit (multiple times with increasing force until  resolved). 
 
 
I do think in the years of tube smacking, I have only had one break in my  
hand.  Also, I have only made one tube bad in that the overlap dislodged;  
however, another segment stopped working (the connection from the circuit 
wire  to the mica) and I can't even be sure the segment was not an issue prior 
to the  smacking.
 
Michail  Wilson
206-920-6312  

 
In a message dated 3/6/2016 9:15:19 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
nickst...@gmail.com writes:

I took a look at the cathodes under a good magnifier and a few of  them you 
can definitely see are physically overlapping in the center of the  
segments and no deal of smacking the tube can get them to move...;-( I'll PM  
you 
later today. I will measure the resistance of the less obvious ones too,  
thanks for the hint!  


Cheers,


Nick



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Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[Nicholas Stock]

I took a look at the cathodes under a good magnifier and a few of them you
can definitely see are physically overlapping in the center of the segments
and no deal of smacking the tube can get them to move...;-( I'll PM you
later today. I will measure the resistance of the less obvious ones too,
thanks for the hint!

Cheers,

Nick

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 9:07 AM, gregebert  wrote:

> Measure the resistance between cathode pins to determine how 'shorted'
> they really are. It may be possible to zap the shorts. I've done this with
> IN-1's before. I'm more concerned about *how* they got shorted, because
> Burroughs tubes are legendary for their high quality.
>
> Are the dead segments fully dead, or do they partially light ? Cathode
> poisoning comes to mind.
>
> BTW, I'd like to obtain the 'worst' one you have for use as a
> museum-piece; private-message me the cost/details. Thanks.
>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[gregebert]

Measure the resistance between cathode pins to determine how 'shorted' they 
really are. It may be possible to zap the shorts. I've done this with 
IN-1's before. I'm more concerned about *how* they got shorted, because 
Burroughs tubes are legendary for their high quality.

Are the dead segments fully dead, or do they partially light ? Cathode 
poisoning comes to mind.

BTW, I'd like to obtain the 'worst' one you have for use as a museum-piece; 
private-message me the cost/details. Thanks.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Bad B7971's

[jb-electronics]

Hi Nick,

sorry to hear that -- maybe you can send one do Dalibor for research / 
future inspiration?


Cheers
Jens

On 3/6/2016 11:25 AM, Nicholas Stock wrote:
Hi Folks...I have 5 B7971's here that have faults (i.e. multiple 
segments illuminated, missing segments)...and they're obviously of 
very little use in clocks. Any other uses for them out there? Anybody 
interested in them?


Cheers,

Nick
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