Re: Fwd: Re: Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it.

[John Preston]

Thanks Nina, Molly, André, David, Allan, and everyone else for all your
insight on this thread. 

I'd like to chime in with a quote from our own slice of web [1]: 

 is not just a mailing list but an effort to formulate an
international, networked discourse that neither promotes a dominant
euphoria (to sell products) nor continues the cynical pessimism, spread
by journalists and intellectuals in the 'old' media who generalize about
'new' media with no clear understanding of their communication aspects.
we have produced, and will continue to produce books, readers, and web
sites in various languages so an 'immanent' net critique will circulate
both on- and offline. 

The internet, as is the want of any globalised socio-technical system,
has de-localised what started off as a small group of people operating
in a particular time and place: there are no borders on the Internet.

Perhaps we do not need to state a purpose for the list, its character is
determined by its history and content, which I suppose is why these meta
discussions can be (a sign of) destabilising in an waning community.
Certainly it is useful to extract common themes. I like 'netcriticism'
as a focus, as it ties in very much with my developing perspective.

In netcrit terms I no longer consider 'the net' to be the Internet, or
even just our increasingly complex relationships with machines, but
rather an all-encompassing socio-technical system, composed of people,
computers, materials, machines, and various relations and transactions
between them -- similar to Hakim Bey's conception but I try to think of
it a model of the economic and power relations in the physical world,
rather than as just an abstract space of information which might map on
to the world somehow.

In that respect I see the list as covering quite a wide area of
discourse, but with a focus on our contemporary setting, and hopefully
with a pragmatic slant too. I believe we (civilization) are nearing both
ecological and social tipping points, and we need to take action to
discover and fix the parts of this sociotechnical system which are
causing harm to the planet and our local communities.

✌️

[1] https://www.nettime.org/info.html
#  distributed via : no commercial use without permission
#is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
#  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
#  @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:

Fwd: Re: Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it.

[Molly Hankwitz]

Forwarded on behalf of Nina

-- Forwarded message -
From: "Nina Temporär" 
Date: Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 3:59 AM
Subject: Aw: Re:  Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can
change it.
To: Molly Hankwitz 


Hi Molly,

Thanks, I have a similar perspective ,  but wasnt allowed to post it on
nettime - unfortunately it seems that disallowing Andreas to disseminate
Standard sexist phrases like I Would probably have no other topics than
sexism, has put me on a watch list.

So, even if we have different opinions about JA, Would you mind forwarding
this? (see below, only that Part. ) Thanks!

I am esepecially concerned about this new regulation ruling out the big
names, as Ted and Felix explicitly came  up with it after I asked them for
help in relation to the onlist sexism and racism and  offlist Harrassment
by JA disciples (no big names) I was exposed to after critisizing JA. But
the current development is nothing I Would have endorsed - it doesnt heal
the racism of a Morlock Elloi, it only leads to the big names writing
privately somewhere Else, which is a pity. I mean, the amount of New people
writing here is great, but I dont see why both couldnt coexist.

Best N


My mail that didnt get through:


 I wasn't in favor of the priniciple of disallowing
the people who usually write here to continue with the same frequency. They
probably now simply discuss in private, elsewhere.

But I think it's great that so many "new" people are writing here.

Saying nettime would have lost its quality is an insult right into the face
of these people. And not even true. And sometimes phrasing new perceptions
needs a while - and is a courageous endeavour -
whereas following beaten paths of the discursive findings of paßt decades
might gleam with terminological perfection, but reveal at best only extra
layers of outdated truths.
Especially in the field of tech/media one should always be aware of this -
even more so, as not only the technology we are using is rapidly changing,
but also the brains of new generations suceeding
as recipients of these.

That said, I always did like the discourse the nettime Community was known
for, and I'd regard it as a loss if it was impossible for both to co-exist
here. But trying to artificially presevere only that one approach here
feels like calling for it to become an exhibit in the museum of natural
history, with its own display, boxed in under glass, and with its
protagontists guaranteed a part in the next sequel of "Night at the
Museum"... (although that'd be kinda cute).

N

Gesendet: Samstag, 29. Juni 2019 um 16:11 Uhr
Von: "carlo von lynX" 
An: nettim...@kein.org
Betreff: Re:  Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change
it.
I'll keep it short as I've said it before some years ago…
I think the pro-active moderation was the whole specialty
of nettime, fostering high quality and inclusiveness. Since
you dropped that (possibly because it was too much work, so
I'm not blaming) the list slowly lost its focus just as all
the sociologic research I look into predicted… maybe Pit
can give it the original pitch back? Hugs from NK, C.

# distributed via : no commercial use without permission
#  is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
# more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
# @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:

> Gesendet: Samstag, 29. Juni 2019 um 22:23 Uhr
> Von: "Molly Hankwitz" 
> An: "carlo von lynX" 
> Cc: nettim...@kein.org
> Betreff: Re:  Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can
change it.
>
> Carlo and nettime!
>
> Thank you for this, Carlo. I could not agree more, the deliberate effort
of
> mods to put material that is provocative and worthy on the list...BUT, it
> may also be, and this is where mods could also help...that the great net
> debates have disappeared or died out. There are new debates, but who is
> framing them relative to networks.
>
> The question comes up more and more - where is the whole idea of networks
> that was once? Answer: sorry, social media has everyone blissed out on
> their own screen.
>
> The great debates that enlivened networks of the 90s, have become muddled
> to the point that "networks" per se don't seem to carry much weight online
> - now its the app, its the website - which don't always reflect a living
> community of net-users as we know...or maybe we are imagining networks
> differently than before and that does not help. Common interests which
> drove the formulation of networks and network 'flows' seem to have been
> replaced by something else. Who is the we of any network now...
>
> I don't know...that was my feeling when I read this. So, yes, we need the
> heavies, maybe...to frame the debates so we can bat our own balls back and
> forth and to and fro on nettime.
>
> Molly
>
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 7:12 AM carlo von lynX <
l...@time.to.get.psyce

Re: Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it.

[André Rebentisch]

Most formerly valuable mailing lists are dead, Carlo.

Here you find a recent quote from Joichi Ito:

“You know that little girl in The Exorcist? That’s what the internet
feels like to me,” Ito said. “You have this little girl and you think
she’s going to become this wonderful kid and then she gets possessed and
starts becoming this demon. And we have to exorcize her and we have to
kind of bring her back.”

Source:
https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/6/26/18758776/joi-ito-mit-media-lab-resisting-reduction-exorcist-kara-swisher-recode-decode-podcast-interview



André Rebentisch

#  distributed via : no commercial use without permission
#is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
#  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
#  @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:

Re: Has net-art lost political significance?

[Minka Stoyanova]

Hello Rachel,

I love your questions. Personally, I just submitted my PhD thesis which had
some similar research goals. While I love the construct of "the network"
and "the exploit" -- I feel they are dated/need revision in today's
landscape of platform politics. In addition I think the flat hierarchy of
the network is a bit utopian and doesn't recognize the power of some
individuals in the overall structure. Moreover, I feel the discourse around
tactical works needs to be expanded to include works that engage technology
(broadly) in a critical way as, for me, technology and the internet are (at
this point) part of a single continuum. The idea that we can talk about
work 'on the web' singularly and separate from work that is about the web,
that is of the web, or that is simply *of *our current techno-social
condition is stifling, I believe.

I think you can apply whatever theoretical model you want; the discourse
(as your research question recognizes) is ripe for new frameworks.
Personally, I used my own kind of cyborg theory (a blend of Heidegger,
McLuhan, Latour, Haraway, Bratton, and Terranova... among others) to
discuss these types of works in terms of challenging our relationship to
technology as both a global system we are embedded in and distributed
across and as something which has embedded itself in us. Maybe that will
help you with your approach.

Certainly, there are artists making work that is interesting, important,
and political in this landscape. Many are mentioned in other responses.
Goodness, what the alt-right did was straight out of the handbook of
Tactical Media, very effective, and not *not *art -- although it might
terrify some of us. That has been discussed here, in fact -- and I was
again discussing it last week at a conference.

~Minka

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 11:38 AM  wrote:

> So interesting.
> I also find this so interesting because in the light of fakeness, Tactical
> Media is harder, in the sense of the intervention/provocation to response
> that was done  with RTMark/YesMen back in the time I was active. I think
> that the new Washington Post, after the Times and NY Post ones that were
> done in the late 2000's, was powerful because I heard about it in the UAE.
>
> However, in the Eastern hemisphere, I have been working with AR as a
> "local" discourse (meaning that anyone can get the app, but the message is
> pretty limited to them), as well as working with artists in Kazakhstan
> about messages AR as tactical media, such as overlaying messages over works
> in the National Mueum (based on the Manifest.AR We AR MoMA intervention I
> was part of around 2010) and the "Modernization of Consciousness" (Ruhani
> Zhangru) posters in 2018.  These are some interestign ways in which one can
> laterally engage networks for critical discourse.
>
> In addition, I am working with David Guillo with his independent web
> router galleries as a sort of TAZ in regions that employ firewalls and
> net.filtering. This follows from my setting up occupy.here routers as wifi
> "islands" for collaboration without using VPN, and therefore staying
> technically within local regulations.
> While not so much "Tactical" media, I consider that in the era of
> increasing firewalling, and in the case of threatened net.separation in
> Russia and Iran, I feel hang autonomous server art is a critical space for
> exploration of these topics as well.
>
> On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:28:58 -0700, Molly Hankwitz wrote:
>
> Hi Rachel,
> snip -
>
> I’m currently writing about various tactical and activist practices in the
> wireless space, including artistic interventions, software-defined radio
> communities who are reverse-engineering, hacking, sniffing and jamming
> signals, communities and activists who are building communal Wi-Fi and
> cellular networks and artists making work in or about the politics of the
> wireless spectrum – who owns it, how it’s controlled and so on
>
> snip
>
>
>
> Great. So needed. I wrote a dissertation on WiFi practices - a bit earlier
> history than what you are looking for. I write about “warchalking” and
> other kinds of social media based information spaces, hacks. From that
> experience I’d bet you will be best off in the arts. If there is writing
> being done it would be from groups like the then - headman - Knowbotics
> Research, etc. But the best project - utilizing mobile tools and being both
> tactical and poetry and human rights - Transborder Tool b.a.n.g. Lab.
> Ricardo Dominguez’s and Brett Stalbaum from virtual sit-in days behind it
> as well as Micha Cardenas. We programmed this into our project - City
> Centered: Locative Media and Wireless Festival - 2010. I think TBT is
> having a re-release. (Smile)
>
>
>
> Molly
>
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 3:40 AM Rachel O' Dwyer 
> wrote:
>
>> What characterises media art interventions in the context of
>> ‘surveillance capitalism’, platforms and the gig economy? Are these
>> practices still meaningful or, as F.A.T. Lab claimed in 2015,

Re: nettime-l Digest, Vol 141, Issue 66

[David Garcia]

Hi one of the surest signs of a struggling platform is spiraling into meta 
discussions 
(nettime anout nettime) what is it and what its for.. a platform doomed 
to argue endlessly about itself.

The mods maybe less interventionist but they still know how to make their 
presence 
felt when necessary. And the advice that more familiar voices should take a 
back seat so 
that others may feel empowered to "pipe up” did seem to lead to a brief flurry 
of fresh activity. 
But there is more to it if we want to blow lightly on the embers to spark it 
back into life. Sometimes
that still happens from time to time but not enough.

For my money the best way to change nettime is to contribute pieces of (loosely 
defined) nettcriticism 
generously to the list. Maybe even taking the risk of exposing embryoninic 
slices of books or articles 
in the process of being writen and the exposure of ideas only partly formed. To 
take just one example
I remember that a number of the ideas of Lev Manovich’s Language of New Media 
first saw daylight on 
these pages and evolved a bit through discussion. 

I may be wrong but my impression is that this happened far more frequently in 
the early phase when nettimers
(perhaps less professionalised) risked using the space as a dry run with 
critical peers. People these days seem 
far more protective of their work often holding back to wait for more formal 
publication settings. There are 
exceptions and I could be wrong but thats how it feels to me. If I am 
misreading this and if not then maybe 
suggest some ways this might be addressed?

Moving from the ICT era where we began in the 90s to our world of mobile 
devices and smart infrastructure 
and platforms makes something like nettime's a community memory reflective, 
generous but willing to be 
critical a space that is MORE not less valuable. But maybe we have use it more 
experimentaly both
in the writing and in how it connects to other platforms.

So my ten cents worth is to ask for more generosity, more experiment, more risk 
taking (perhaps) some curation 
(in terms of seeking out and requesting contributions)..and please not too much 
meta-discussion.


David Garcia  


On 30 Jun 2019, at 11:31, Allan  wrote:

> hello,
> Seems Nettimers suffer similar illusions of those entrenched in other forms 
> of social media. Disconnected or detached from face-to-face political 
> processes and programmes linked to the daily activities that change 
> institutions and governments there is an abundance of debates, verbiage and 
> sometimes just utter nonsense.
> 
> What appears necessary is a re-framing of Nettime objectives and upgrading of 
> the discursive tools that could make conversations more relevant and 
> constructive.
> 
> Keep the faith
> Allan
> On 2019. Jun 30. 12:00 +0200, nettime-l-requ...@mail.kein.org, wrote:
>> Send nettime-l mailing list submissions to
>> nettime-l@mail.kein.org
>> 
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> nettime-l-requ...@mail.kein.org
>> 
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> nettime-l-ow...@mail.kein.org
>> 
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of nettime-l digest..."
>> 
>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>> 1. Re: Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it.
>> (carlo von lynX)
>> 2. Re: Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it.
>> (Molly Hankwitz)
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 16:11:47 +0200
>> From: carlo von lynX 
>> To: nettim...@kein.org
>> Subject: Re:  Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can
>> change it.
>> Message-ID: <20190629141147.ga30...@lo.psyced.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>> 
>> I'll keep it short as I've said it before some years ago?
>> I think the pro-active moderation was the whole specialty
>> of nettime, fostering high quality and inclusiveness. Since
>> you dropped that (possibly because it was too much work, so
>> I'm not blaming) the list slowly lost its focus just as all
>> the sociologic research I look into predicted? maybe Pit
>> can give it the original pitch back? Hugs from NK, C.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:23:18 -0700
>> From: Molly Hankwitz 
>> To: carlo von lynX 
>> Cc: nettim...@kein.org
>> Subject: Re:  Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can
>> change it.
>> Message-ID:
>> 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> Carlo and nettime!
>> 
>> Thank you for this, Carlo. I could not agree more, the deliberate effort of
>> mods to put material that is provocative and worthy on the list...BUT, it
>> may also be, and this is where mods could also help...that the great net
>> debates have disappeared or died out. There are new debates, but who is
>>

Re: nettime-l Digest, Vol 141, Issue 66

[Allan]

hello,
Seems Nettimers suffer similar illusions of those entrenched in other forms of 
social media. Disconnected or detached from face-to-face political processes 
and programmes linked to the daily activities that change institutions and 
governments there is an abundance of debates, verbiage and sometimes just utter 
nonsense.

What appears necessary is a re-framing of Nettime objectives and upgrading of 
the discursive tools that could make conversations more relevant and 
constructive.

Keep the faith
Allan
On 2019. Jun 30. 12:00 +0200, nettime-l-requ...@mail.kein.org, wrote:
> Send nettime-l mailing list submissions to
> nettime-l@mail.kein.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> nettime-l-requ...@mail.kein.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> nettime-l-ow...@mail.kein.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of nettime-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it.
> (carlo von lynX)
> 2. Re: Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it.
> (Molly Hankwitz)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 16:11:47 +0200
> From: carlo von lynX 
> To: nettim...@kein.org
> Subject: Re:  Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can
> change it.
> Message-ID: <20190629141147.ga30...@lo.psyced.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I'll keep it short as I've said it before some years ago?
> I think the pro-active moderation was the whole specialty
> of nettime, fostering high quality and inclusiveness. Since
> you dropped that (possibly because it was too much work, so
> I'm not blaming) the list slowly lost its focus just as all
> the sociologic research I look into predicted? maybe Pit
> can give it the original pitch back? Hugs from NK, C.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:23:18 -0700
> From: Molly Hankwitz 
> To: carlo von lynX 
> Cc: nettim...@kein.org
> Subject: Re:  Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can
> change it.
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Carlo and nettime!
>
> Thank you for this, Carlo. I could not agree more, the deliberate effort of
> mods to put material that is provocative and worthy on the list...BUT, it
> may also be, and this is where mods could also help...that the great net
> debates have disappeared or died out. There are new debates, but who is
> framing them relative to networks.
>
> The question comes up more and more - where is the whole idea of networks
> that was once? Answer: sorry, social media has everyone blissed out on
> their own screen.
>
> The great debates that enlivened networks of the 90s, have become muddled
> to the point that "networks" per se don't seem to carry much weight online
> - now its the app, its the website - which don't always reflect a living
> community of net-users as we know...or maybe we are imagining networks
> differently than before and that does not help. Common interests which
> drove the formulation of networks and network 'flows' seem to have been
> replaced by something else. Who is the we of any network now...
>
> I don't know...that was my feeling when I read this. So, yes, we need the
> heavies, maybe...to frame the debates so we can bat our own balls back and
> forth and to and fro on nettime.
>
> Molly
>
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 7:12 AM carlo von lynX 
> wrote:
>
> > I'll keep it short as I've said it before some years ago?
> > I think the pro-active moderation was the whole specialty
> > of nettime, fostering high quality and inclusiveness. Since
> > you dropped that (possibly because it was too much work, so
> > I'm not blaming) the list slowly lost its focus just as all
> > the sociologic research I look into predicted? maybe Pit
> > can give it the original pitch back? Hugs from NK, C.
> >
> > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission
> > #  is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
> > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
> > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
> > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
> > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> 
>
> --
>
> # distributed via : no commercial use without permission
> #  is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
> # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
>
> End of nettime-l Digest, Vol 141, Issue 66
> *