Re: Fw: Has the right gone full Alt_?
On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 5:23 PM Kurtz, Steven wrote: > The reason knowledge is so important is that it can function as a virtual > glue to build community and a way for many members to say I may not be > educated like the members of the demiurge, but I am more intelligent and > better informed, but most importantly, the goal is transformation—to be a > part of a constellation that gives you the power to transcend the limits of > a false given. Take the red pill and emerge anew. > This is the heart of it. The quest to overcome alienation is the spiritual mainspring that calculating politicians have learned to bend and release at will. At the level of common people, the alienation is easily understandable and has many identifiable causes. On the one hand, every aspect of the communitarians' symbolic order - and by order I mean hierarchy in the sacred sense, the order of human relationships in the great chain that extends from creaturely Earth to the Divine - every aspect of this order is threatened by rapid change, whether you're talking gender roles, institutional authority, inclusion/exclusion boundaries, even property ownership (perceived as "under attack" when government regulators come in). To this you can add a materialist perspective: it's obvious that a large amount of working-class people are losing the opportunities and advantages of the old Fordist-extractivist economy, without any replacement that can be seen. Elite knowledge says all this change is inevitable - so if you don't want it or couldn't survive it, you had better find new knowledge, otherwise you are simply invalidated and left for dead. This is why more and more people on the right are finding new knowledge somewhere outside the mainstream, and sharing it with others who recognize it as the truth. Trump won by a landslide - do you know? What Steve says is spot on and matches all the testimony I've read. What's important is not the quality of the gnosis, its internal coherence, its validation by outside sources, its verifiability - but instead, what's important is that others recognize it. That recognition restores the old hierarchical order and defends it from caustic sophistry. It makes America great again, in the flesh, as a unified community. Religion is the central theater for this reaffirmation of identity. It always has been, since the days of the Roman empire when the church taught the faithful to be "in, but not of this world." For sure it did not take long for the Christian community, educated in this way, to go back outside and take over the empire. Which they may well end up doing again, in short order. No one wants to hear about this stuff because it's too banal on the surface - and too threatening underneath. Rightwing churches are like Rotary Clubs, but with a lot more emotional range because you've got women, children, elders and the Sermon on the Mount involved, in addition to the dudes talking politics and making deals. Variations on the basic pattern extend throughout the different social classes, of course it can get much more sophisticated. What we should understand at the heart of it is the intensity of the alienation, and the corresponding need for new, secret knowledge that can rebuild the threatened community. When apocalyptic political knowledge comes in the door, the boring Sunday service becomes a petrol bomb. Bannon and Trump threw it into downtown Washington and set the world on fire. The thing is, alienation is coming for everybody. Imperial breakdown combined with climate change is going to destroy the old middle class privileges. The twenty-somethings are seeking secret knowledge in a big way right now, because liberalism has nothing to offer them but a scorched future. In the past, capitalist progress had its cosmological symbols: atomic energy, the moon shot, the World Wide Web. All of that tastes like ashes for the younger post-left generations who see climate change on the horizon. But the cosmological knowledge that is sought by these younger people has no unity, no connection to power of any kind, and therefore no politics. Which means we're sitting ducks. The next incarnation of Trump will come to office with clear doctrines, organized forces, and an effective strategy. At that point, "secret knowledge" for right-wing America will mean being in on the plan. I think that the only way to turn this story around is to come up with an industrial program that serves cosmological ends. Something like "Rebuild the energy system for Gaia." It has to be an industrial plan because it has to offer people a chance, not to preserve the old world, but to build a new one, with work and money and material progress involved. It has to be practical and logical and feasible, but above all, egalitarian enough to bring in new people. At the same time it has to be cosmological because only those who can see a further star will find the courage and energy to fight against the bitter realities that are staring t
Re: Fw: Has the right gone full Alt_?
Thanks - I would not repeat what I tried to think in my other email (just sent) but basically my idea is: first, let's shape our own horizon. It will serve as an attractor. Maybe not a theological one, but a cosmological one. Best FN __ On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 7:47 PM Kurtz, Steven wrote: > Hi Frédéric, > > > I wish I had a simple answer to that very important question. The > negatives are easy. No to censorship. I am not even sure that is possible > if some business or institution actually wanted to. Censorship, to the > degree it's possible, only serves to reaffirm their positions. No to the > university, because universities have such a limited capacity to attract > the Gnostics. Most of these folks do not go to university at all, and if > they do, go to religion based universities, or stay in the more > right-oriented parts of a secular university like business schools or > economics departments. Like most people, they don't leave their comfort > zones for places where confirmation bias and consensual validation are not > readily available. > > > My belief is we have to go to them wherever that may be, and using their > rules put some different narratives out there. We need our own stories and > theology to pitch. For example, this may not exist after covid but, I have > suggested going to Christian summits and argue their points from the last > century. The lord's work is separate from politics. Those who believe that > Christ is King only function within this monarchical system (meaning no > need to vote in the secular world). Character in leadership > matters. Leaders should offer a moral example; those who don't should not > be supported (no more Trump and most politicians for that matter). Argue > for a more traditional concept of the elect (which is being horribly > abused by Christian illiberals and prosperity ministries). Anything to > muddy the water from the churches to the chat rooms. Only direct > engagement will slow this nonsense. > > > With even madder groups like Qanon we are only limited by our imagination. > No rules exist there so we can make up whatever we can imagine, and this > can all be done on-line. New theologies. New Messiahs. New conspiracies. > The crazy train can be slowed or perhaps even derailed (made less > dangerous). I am sure the madness cannot be eliminated, but it doesn't have > to be completely out of control. As long as no one engages with it except > through complaint or with secular persuasion techniques (the Al Gore > power point, or data analysis) its only going to continue to spiral out of > control. SK > -- > *From:* Frédéric Neyrat > *Sent:* Sunday, December 6, 2020 6:58 PM > *To:* Kurtz, Steven > *Cc:* nettim...@kein.org > *Subject:* Re: Fw: Has the right gone full Alt_? > > Dear Steven, > > Thanks for your analysis. I've a question about one sentence: > > "...if it is not accompanied by a massive intervention campaigns into the > Gnostic networks of alternative reality": > > How, according to you, might we do that? > > - Do you mean, like, forbidding a certain number of > communication/technological uses, i.e. using censorship? As far I > understand, in the US reality - altereality? - it will be very difficult > (more possible to do that in France for instance); > > - or intervening in participating and trying to trigger dialogues with the > Gnosticists? But is it not precisely this dialogue that is impossible, I > mean: it is a suppression that is at the root of what you call Gnosticism > (in the way you use this term), a cleavage/Spaltung preventing a real > dialogue from happening (if there was, for the e-Gnosticists, an alterity > different from the monster that QAnon conjures up, then there will be no > e-Gnosticism, correct?) > > -unless we think that the technological *bêtise* - to borrow from Bernard > Stiegler - might be treated in the University, hence the function of > education. I totally believe in education's role, but are US universities > still trying to form/inform a middle class, or, said differently, are US > universities able to access/speak to those who endorse the hellish religion > of the anti-world? (strange religion that has replaced the Other world by a > world without others). > > My best, > > Frédéric Neyrat > > __ > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 5:24 PM Kurtz, Steven wrote: > >> Hey Brian, welcome to the wilderness my friend. I have been yelling about >> this for many years, but basically talking to myself. All the knowledge in >> the world about surveillance capitalism, postfordism, and neoliberalism >> doesn’t help much (a little with concepts of alienation and its other treks >> into psychology) when the question is best answered by the history of >> religion and comparative religion. My education was certainly deficient in >> these topics, although I have been trying to remedy this situation.
Re: Fw: Has the right gone full Alt_?
nd shared in fellowship among those who know (those who have > been red-pilled). > > > > Many outlets for this way of being are readily available. It?s best if > it?s able to survive virtually as social media platforms will help with > expanding the fellowship over vast territories and with its separation from > the forces of the demiurge. Gnostic groups do not require a messiah, > although it?s fine if there is one. The cult of Trump is evidence of that. > But they can also be decentralized groups such as in the yoga and wellness > community* where an aristocracy of influencers lead the flock, or a > distributed network like Qanon, which is fundamentally leaderless. All of > these groups, and we must include the Evangelicals, LDS, and conservative > Catholics, are concerned most with the elimination of ignorance even more > than the elimination of sin. In fact, in this century sin has become much > more tolerable than ignorance. (I should note that this list of groups is > very intersectional and probably should also include the virtual social > justice warriors cancelling people who don?t und > > erstand the difference between sexual orientation and sexual preference. > Just not woke?the left?s equivalent of the red pill.) The reason knowledge > is so important is that it can function as a virtual glue to build > community and a way for many members to say I may not be educated like the > members of the demiurge, but I am more intelligent and better informed, but > most importantly, the goal is transformation?to be a part of a > constellation that gives you the power to transcend the limits of a false > given. Take the red pill and emerge anew. I don?t want to play down the > former two reasons for becoming a part of the Gnostic front. They are > significant. For Evangelicals and other conservative Christians the > breaking of the spiritual consensus in the West in the 60s was traumatic, > and the erosion of a national spiritual life has continued ever since. From > their perspective, Gnostic revelation could bring back the consensus. The > fact that yoga and wellness can commune with evangelicals t > > hrough Qanon or anti-vax seems to be an indication of this possibility > from a Gnostic point of view. For the greater Trump cult, being viewed as > ignorant rubes by their educational superiors (now more than ever as Trump > continues to loot and grift this class) has been a source of aggravation. > Gnosticism proves their greater intelligence and their superior knowledge > that in turn acts as a real power lift to their pride and well-being. The > elite of the Republican Party understand this desire and are taking > advantage of it. In part, this is why the Republican Party is becoming the > working class party in the US. > > > > We do need a new ecological aesthetic (CAE just did a book on that), and > we do need a new political theology. I can?t help but think of the anti-vax > motto??You have data, but we have stories.? But none of that does any good > if it is not accompanied by a massive intervention campaigns into the > Gnostic networks of alternative reality. This is such a significant site in > the lives of millions, and we ignore it at our own peril. > > > > *I want to make clear that with the exceptions of Qanon and anti-vax I > am not indicting every person who participates in these various groups?only > a variable subsection is a part of the Gnostic front. Membership tends to > happen in spiritually-oriented groups since they are most of the way there > already. > > -- next part -- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://mx.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/attachments/20201206/d08918e0/attachment-0001.html > > > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission > #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Fw: Has the right gone full Alt_?
Hi Frédéric, I wish I had a simple answer to that very important question. The negatives are easy. No to censorship. I am not even sure that is possible if some business or institution actually wanted to. Censorship, to the degree it's possible, only serves to reaffirm their positions. No to the university, because universities have such a limited capacity to attract the Gnostics. Most of these folks do not go to university at all, and if they do, go to religion based universities, or stay in the more right-oriented parts of a secular university like business schools or economics departments. Like most people, they don't leave their comfort zones for places where confirmation bias and consensual validation are not readily available. My belief is we have to go to them wherever that may be, and using their rules put some different narratives out there. We need our own stories and theology to pitch. For example, this may not exist after covid but, I have suggested going to Christian summits and argue their points from the last century. The lord's work is separate from politics. Those who believe that Christ is King only function within this monarchical system (meaning no need to vote in the secular world). Character in leadership matters. Leaders should offer a moral example; those who don't should not be supported (no more Trump and most politicians for that matter). Argue for a more traditional concept of the elect (which is being horribly abused by Christian illiberals and prosperity ministries). Anything to muddy the water from the churches to the chat rooms. Only direct engagement will slow this nonsense. With even madder groups like Qanon we are only limited by our imagination. No rules exist there so we can make up whatever we can imagine, and this can all be done on-line. New theologies. New Messiahs. New conspiracies. The crazy train can be slowed or perhaps even derailed (made less dangerous). I am sure the madness cannot be eliminated, but it doesn't have to be completely out of control. As long as no one engages with it except through complaint or with secular persuasion techniques (the Al Gore power point, or data analysis) its only going to continue to spiral out of control. SK From: Frédéric Neyrat Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 6:58 PM To: Kurtz, Steven Cc: nettim...@kein.org Subject: Re: Fw: Has the right gone full Alt_? Dear Steven, Thanks for your analysis. I've a question about one sentence: "...if it is not accompanied by a massive intervention campaigns into the Gnostic networks of alternative reality": How, according to you, might we do that? - Do you mean, like, forbidding a certain number of communication/technological uses, i.e. using censorship? As far I understand, in the US reality - altereality? - it will be very difficult (more possible to do that in France for instance); - or intervening in participating and trying to trigger dialogues with the Gnosticists? But is it not precisely this dialogue that is impossible, I mean: it is a suppression that is at the root of what you call Gnosticism (in the way you use this term), a cleavage/Spaltung preventing a real dialogue from happening (if there was, for the e-Gnosticists, an alterity different from the monster that QAnon conjures up, then there will be no e-Gnosticism, correct?) -unless we think that the technological bêtise - to borrow from Bernard Stiegler - might be treated in the University, hence the function of education. I totally believe in education's role, but are US universities still trying to form/inform a middle class, or, said differently, are US universities able to access/speak to those who endorse the hellish religion of the anti-world? (strange religion that has replaced the Other world by a world without others). My best, Frédéric Neyrat __ On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 5:24 PM Kurtz, Steven mailto:sjku...@buffalo.edu>> wrote: Hey Brian, welcome to the wilderness my friend. I have been yelling about this for many years, but basically talking to myself. All the knowledge in the world about surveillance capitalism, postfordism, and neoliberalism doesn’t help much (a little with concepts of alienation and its other treks into psychology) when the question is best answered by the history of religion and comparative religion. My education was certainly deficient in these topics, although I have been trying to remedy this situation. Even while I witnessed the rise of the religious right at closing decades of the last century, I never thought it to be more than a political problem. Now it’s clear that the “political problem” is much more than that as we witness religious illiberalism taking over nations all over the globe, and unfortunately, the left doesn’t have the categories to understand this at the grass roots level, let alone act against it in any reasonable manne
Re: Fw: Has the right gone full Alt_?
> Gnostic point of view. For the greater Trump cult, being viewed as ignorant > rubes by their educational superiors (now more than ever as Trump continues > to loot and grift this class) has been a source of aggravation. Gnosticism > proves their greater intelligence and their superior knowledge that in turn > acts as a real power lift to their pride and well-being. The elite of the > Republican Party understand this desire and are taking advantage of it. In > part, this is why the Republican Party is becoming the working class party in > the US. > > We do need a new ecological aesthetic (CAE just did a book on that), and we > do need a new political theology. I can?t help but think of the anti-vax > motto??You have data, but we have stories.? But none of that does any good if > it is not accompanied by a massive intervention campaigns into the Gnostic > networks of alternative reality. This is such a significant site in the lives > of millions, and we ignore it at our own peril. > > *I want to make clear that with the exceptions of Qanon and anti-vax I am not > indicting every person who participates in these various groups?only a > variable subsection is a part of the Gnostic front. Membership tends to > happen in spiritually-oriented groups since they are most of the way there > already. > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://mx.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/attachments/20201206/d08918e0/attachment-0001.html> # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Fw: Has the right gone full Alt_?
Dear Steven, Thanks for your analysis. I've a question about one sentence: "...if it is not accompanied by a massive intervention campaigns into the Gnostic networks of alternative reality": How, according to you, might we do that? - Do you mean, like, forbidding a certain number of communication/technological uses, i.e. using censorship? As far I understand, in the US reality - altereality? - it will be very difficult (more possible to do that in France for instance); - or intervening in participating and trying to trigger dialogues with the Gnosticists? But is it not precisely this dialogue that is impossible, I mean: it is a suppression that is at the root of what you call Gnosticism (in the way you use this term), a cleavage/Spaltung preventing a real dialogue from happening (if there was, for the e-Gnosticists, an alterity different from the monster that QAnon conjures up, then there will be no e-Gnosticism, correct?) -unless we think that the technological *bêtise* - to borrow from Bernard Stiegler - might be treated in the University, hence the function of education. I totally believe in education's role, but are US universities still trying to form/inform a middle class, or, said differently, are US universities able to access/speak to those who endorse the hellish religion of the anti-world? (strange religion that has replaced the Other world by a world without others). My best, Frédéric Neyrat __ On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 5:24 PM Kurtz, Steven wrote: > Hey Brian, welcome to the wilderness my friend. I have been yelling about > this for many years, but basically talking to myself. All the knowledge in > the world about surveillance capitalism, postfordism, and neoliberalism > doesn’t help much (a little with concepts of alienation and its other treks > into psychology) when the question is best answered by the history of > religion and comparative religion. My education was certainly deficient in > these topics, although I have been trying to remedy this situation. Even > while I witnessed the rise of the religious right at closing decades of the > last century, I never thought it to be more than a political problem. Now > it’s clear that the “political problem” is much more than that as we > witness religious illiberalism taking over nations all over the globe, and > unfortunately, the left doesn’t have the categories to understand this at > the grass roots level, let alone act against it in any reasonable manner. > We do well at understanding this phenomenon in terms of power > constellations at the top of the hierarchy (our traditional comfort zone), > but as to the rest of it the critique seems to consist of “Why are people > acting crazy?” > > > > I am the first to admit I have no systematic analysis of this “crazy,” but > I do have a few scattered thoughts that I am trying to order. First, we > have seen this crazy before, and have seen it for centuries. I believe what > we are witnessing (particularly in the US) is a Gnostic revival. It’s just > not in a form we are used to, or we wouldn’t see it as crazy at all, but > just as another religious faith. The devoted are out fighting the > demiurge—the experts, the deep state, scientists, and others rulers of the > false real in an effort to get beyond the flawed knowledge of authority to > that of deep esoteric knowledge derived from personal transcendental > experience and shared in fellowship among those who know (those who have > been red-pilled). > > > > Many outlets for this way of being are readily available. It’s best if > it’s able to survive virtually as social media platforms will help with > expanding the fellowship over vast territories and with its separation from > the forces of the demiurge. Gnostic groups do not require a messiah, > although it’s fine if there is one. The cult of Trump is evidence of that. > But they can also be decentralized groups such as in the yoga and wellness > community* where an aristocracy of influencers lead the flock, or a > distributed network like Qanon, which is fundamentally leaderless. All of > these groups, and we must include the Evangelicals, LDS, and conservative > Catholics, are concerned most with the elimination of ignorance even more > than the elimination of sin. In fact, in this century sin has become > much more tolerable than ignorance. (I should note that this list of groups > is very intersectional and probably should also include the virtual > social justice warriors cancelling people who don’t understand the > difference between sexual orientation and sexual preference. Just not > woke—the left’s equivalent of the red pill.) The reason knowledge is so > important is that it can function as a virtual glue to build community and > a way for many members to say I may not be educated like the members of the > demiurge, but I am more intelligent and better informed, but most > importantly, the goal is transformation—to be a
Re: Fw: Has the right gone full Alt_?
Hey Brian, welcome to the wilderness my friend. I have been yelling about this for many years, but basically talking to myself. All the knowledge in the world about surveillance capitalism, postfordism, and neoliberalism doesn’t help much (a little with concepts of alienation and its other treks into psychology) when the question is best answered by the history of religion and comparative religion. My education was certainly deficient in these topics, although I have been trying to remedy this situation. Even while I witnessed the rise of the religious right at closing decades of the last century, I never thought it to be more than a political problem. Now it’s clear that the “political problem” is much more than that as we witness religious illiberalism taking over nations all over the globe, and unfortunately, the left doesn’t have the categories to understand this at the grass roots level, let alone act against it in any reasonable manner. We do well at understanding this phenomenon in terms of power constellations at the top of the hierarchy (our traditional comfort zone), but as to the rest of it the critique seems to consist of “Why are people acting crazy?” I am the first to admit I have no systematic analysis of this “crazy,” but I do have a few scattered thoughts that I am trying to order. First, we have seen this crazy before, and have seen it for centuries. I believe what we are witnessing (particularly in the US) is a Gnostic revival. It’s just not in a form we are used to, or we wouldn’t see it as crazy at all, but just as another religious faith. The devoted are out fighting the demiurge—the experts, the deep state, scientists, and others rulers of the false real in an effort to get beyond the flawed knowledge of authority to that of deep esoteric knowledge derived from personal transcendental experience and shared in fellowship among those who know (those who have been red-pilled). Many outlets for this way of being are readily available. It’s best if it’s able to survive virtually as social media platforms will help with expanding the fellowship over vast territories and with its separation from the forces of the demiurge. Gnostic groups do not require a messiah, although it’s fine if there is one. The cult of Trump is evidence of that. But they can also be decentralized groups such as in the yoga and wellness community* where an aristocracy of influencers lead the flock, or a distributed network like Qanon, which is fundamentally leaderless. All of these groups, and we must include the Evangelicals, LDS, and conservative Catholics, are concerned most with the elimination of ignorance even more than the elimination of sin. In fact, in this century sin has become much more tolerable than ignorance. (I should note that this list of groups is very intersectional and probably should also include the virtual social justice warriors cancelling people who don’t understand the difference between sexual orientation and sexual preference. Just not woke—the left’s equivalent of the red pill.) The reason knowledge is so important is that it can function as a virtual glue to build community and a way for many members to say I may not be educated like the members of the demiurge, but I am more intelligent and better informed, but most importantly, the goal is transformation—to be a part of a constellation that gives you the power to transcend the limits of a false given. Take the red pill and emerge anew. I don’t want to play down the former two reasons for becoming a part of the Gnostic front. They are significant. For Evangelicals and other conservative Christians the breaking of the spiritual consensus in the West in the 60s was traumatic, and the erosion of a national spiritual life has continued ever since. From their perspective, Gnostic revelation could bring back the consensus. The fact that yoga and wellness can commune with evangelicals through Qanon or anti-vax seems to be an indication of this possibility from a Gnostic point of view. For the greater Trump cult, being viewed as ignorant rubes by their educational superiors (now more than ever as Trump continues to loot and grift this class) has been a source of aggravation. Gnosticism proves their greater intelligence and their superior knowledge that in turn acts as a real power lift to their pride and well-being. The elite of the Republican Party understand this desire and are taking advantage of it. In part, this is why the Republican Party is becoming the working class party in the US. We do need a new ecological aesthetic (CAE just did a book on that), and we do need a new political theology. I can’t help but think of the anti-vax motto—“You have data, but we have stories.” But none of that does any good if it is not accompanied by a massive intervention campaigns into the Gnostic networks of alternative reality. This is such a significant site in the lives of millions,
