Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-18 Thread John Hopkins



On 16/Mar/20 08:25, Carsten Agger wrote:

biological and social levels: the damage to the body is mostly due to
the overreaction of the immune system, and the damage to the economy


This body-response that you speak of was true for the SARS event -- that's why 
mortality rates for younger people were significantly higher in that epidemic, 
they had/have stronger immune systems. Those systems were triggered to the 
extreme, causing death from that over-reaction. This, so far, is not the case 
with CoVid-19, that's one of the reasons mortality is skewed more to older and 
immune-compromised folks. Everyone else's immune system is reacting 'properly'...


jh
--
++
Dr. John Hopkins, BSc, MFA, PhD
hanging on to the Laramide Orogeny
http://tech-no-mad.net/blog/
++



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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-17 Thread Carsten Agger


On 2020-03-12 10:19, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> 3-4% of each of these groups will die, so it will likely be a uniting
> experience, a dismal failure of the identity politics, and therefore a
> serious problem for powers that be.
>
> Unrelated, it's funny how coronavirus has the same effect at
> biological and social levels: the damage to the body is mostly due to
> the overreaction of the immune system, and the damage to the economy
> is due to the overreaction of the society. Somehow the ruling class
> calculated that it is worthwhile to decimate the economy to delay
> deaths by few weeks or months (idiotic statements about the virus
> getting tired notwithstanding.)

I do not think the lockdown practised in Europe right now is an
overreaction.

I'm glad my country (Denmark) hasn't enacted an outright curfew like
Spain, but look at the situation in Italy if you want to know what can
happen if we don't do what's currently being done.

Unfortunately, the USA and the UK seem to have volunteered as control
cases, so we may soon see if you're right about the overreaction.
(Indeed, I hope you are, I have loved ones in the UK - but I fear
you're not.)

Best,
Carsten



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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-13 Thread sebastian

> 
> On Mar 12, 2020, at 12:05 PM, Eric Kluitenberg  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Sebastian, all,
> 
> Good questions - though I have not much to say about the (‘radical’?) left. 
> But the schizo-analysis question is interesting: 
> 
>> On 12 Mar 2020, at 09:21, sebast...@rolux.org wrote:
>> 
>> - What is the perspective on coronavirus from the vantage point of
>> Schizoanalysis?
> 
> Probably a lot of points could be made, a.o. about the way in which 
> existential territories are compromised by the mental distortions of 
> (over-)reactions to the viral spread. However, for me the most interesting 
> issue that has emerged is to think this through transversally across the 
> ecological registers that Guattari has identified all the way back in 1989, 
> i.e. the material environment, the social relations, and the individual 
> universes of reference (subjective experience). What is missing in the model 
> that Guattari proposed in The Three Ecologies, in general, but even more 
> pressing right now, is the fourth register of nonhuman experience.
> 

<...>


Thank you for this! And with regards to "sceptical by default",
I must say that my own relation with Gaia is not all sunshine,
really. In fact, it is entirely parasitcal - and the same would
hold true for my vegan, non-jetsetting, healthy lifestyle-living
alter ego.

I also don't think that Gaia is in trouble. She can withstand
impacts, eruptions and explosions that would reduce all of us to
dust in milliseconds. Capitalism does not threaten the planet.
It doesn't even threaten the survival of the human species. What
it threatens is the future of human civilization - this long
history of murder, rape and destruction into some 20th century
branches of which (say: logic, physics, cinema, music) i'm quite
invested in, actually.

I'm all for blue skies, and I'd be happy if the reduction in non-
essential travel, pointless work meetings or boring conferences
became permanent. But does this virus create a revolutionary
situation? I don't see it. Maybe I'm looking the wrong way.
I'm not a historian, so I don't know what usually happens when
people are instructed to avoid all social contact.

"All the reasons for carrying out a revolution are present. None
is missing. [...] But it is not reasons that make revolutions, it
is bodies. And the bodies are all in front of screens."

It also all really depends on where you're speaking from. It think
a lot about others, but they are not speaking here, and nobody
else can speak in their place.



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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread Ryan Griffis
> 
> 3-4% of each of these groups will die, so it will likely be a uniting 
> experience, a dismal failure of the identity politics, and therefore a 
> serious problem for powers that be.
> 
> Unrelated, it's funny how coronavirus has the same effect at biological 
> and social levels: the damage to the body is mostly due to the 
> overreaction of the immune system, and the damage to the economy is due 
> to the overreaction of the society. Somehow the ruling class calculated 
> that it is worthwhile to decimate the economy to delay deaths by few 
> weeks or months (idiotic statements about the virus getting tired 
> notwithstanding.)


If you think that social distancing policy is merely designed to “delay 
deaths by few weeks or months” you have never visited an emergency room. If 
you had, you’d understand that creating temporal distance between the numbers 
of people requiring immediate health care changes (dramatically) the number of 
people who will ultimately die (whether it’s viral infections or gun-shot 
wounds). An overwhelmed system creates a higher mortality rate. I’m no health 
expert, but this seems like public health 101.
Take care everyone.
Ryan

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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread lizvlx


> 
> ….selective culling of people >65 and those younger with
> pre-existing medical conditions is going cause very significant savings for
> the retirement funds, so they might have factored that in.


R u ok?
What the hell…..that’s neither funny nor intelligent.



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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 02:19:33AM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:

> economy is due to the overreaction of the society. Somehow the ruling
> class calculated that it is worthwhile to decimate the economy to delay
> deaths by few weeks or months (idiotic statements about the virus getting
> tired notwithstanding.)

You're not just delaying deaths. You're reducing the overall mortality due to
triaging if you're preventing oversubscription of the intensive care
capacity from happening.

The elites almost everywhere dropped the ball on this, so they failed to
prevent the higher mortality and thus resulting disruption to the economy.

On the other hand, selective culling of people >65 and those younger with
pre-existing medical conditions is going cause very significant savings for
the retirement funds, so they might have factored that in.


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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread James Wallbank

Thanks Felix!

I'd just started to compile a response which you've eclipsed with one 
that's far more eloquent!


Coronavirus sends a powerful message about the importance of collective 
response.


Neoliberal populists are struggling to avoid praising the value of 
collective action. They're also struggling with the evident value of 
transnational cooperation.


Dialogue about masks seems to focus the political problem for the 
individualistic right. I've seen postings saying, "Masks don't protect 
you well - so they're useless!", entirely refusing to acknowledge the 
value of protecting other people from your own infection.


I suggest that public responses across the world to the pandemic may be 
very interesting as a barometer of trust. The prevalence of panic buying 
and stockpiling measures the level of trust that a population has in its 
leadership. Less trusted leaders will tend to prompt more panic buying.


Eric's musing about Coronavirus as Gaia's response to humanity may be 
located in language, or a conceptual framework that not everyone accepts 
- but it's hard to argue that viruses like Covid-19 aren't typical, 
natural phenomena that will tend to happen when interacting, 
interbreeding populations of a single species becomes huge.


Just as an afterthought, perhaps (and I very much hope it is) Covid-19 
will become a prompt for the traditional, socialist left to start 
getting to grips with complex systems. I have posted before that I 
believe the Green movement has already made this conceptual change, but 
traditional socialist parties haven't.


Stay healthy Nettimers!

James
=



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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread John Young



Out of an abundance of caution tabulate coronavirus infections and 
deaths daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, arithmetically, geometrically, 
locally, nationally, globally, compare to horrendous predecessor 
epidemics and pandemics, confess fear and rotely propound "courage is 
contagious," prowl news and social media to shriek, shame, blame, 
ridicule, aggregate medical data for peddling books, articles, 
speechs, fora strutting and tut-tuting, endorse and castigate 
nostrums for prevention and cure, design and invent topical posts, 
essays, performances, costumes and market advisories, deploy to 
photograph empty streets, shopping malls, stadia, airports, landmarks 
showing a solo human in a facemask, or a shot of a virus victim 
bundled in cocoon on a gurney or hospital bed entubulated to the 
maximum, or spraying and wiping crews, or political goofballs 
pretending to be gravely serious about how to cosmetically embalm 
illness of the stock market. Rage and praise Alex Jones and Hannity, 
Fauci, CDC, WHO, POTUS, order online and pig out, rue paid absence 
from numbing labor.





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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread Felix Stalder

On 12.03.20 09:21, sebast...@rolux.org wrote:
> I have a couple of coronavirus questions. These are neither necessarily
> mine, nor did they arise in anticipation of satisfying answers.

> - What is the perspective on coronavirus seen from where you are? What
>   are the most interesting or surprising narratives that are emerging
>   in your neighborhoods or communities?


For me, the most interesting perspectives are those that see here the
potential for a collective shift in the political imagination, similar
and in addition to, Fridays for Future. Simply by raising question to
which markets and individualized competition (aka neo-liberalism)
provide no answer.

The individual fate and the collective fate are clearly not separable.
Just because one is personally not ill does not mean that one is not
quarantined. And, there is no use in being quarantined of the person
bringing the food is so precarious that s/he has to work despite being
ill (and bringing the virus right to the doorstep). And while Trump is 
generally entertaininģ for many, few are be willing to trust him on 
medical advice.

This makes a very strong case for basic social services and keeping
expertise within the public services.

Also, it's a good occasion to think about the value of purely economic
efficiency in global supply chains and the reliance of hyper-mobility
for even the most basic stuff (like standard generic drugs). So,
questions of resilience, coupling and de-coupling, of reducing
complexity within the system.

If it's possible to frame all these discussions, which have become
politically much more prevalent now, within the context of an ecological
transformation, the overall effect is quite positive.

What it takes to translate this shift in collective awareness into
political action is not clear, but for political action to become
possible, shifts in collective consciousness need to occur first. And
this is part of that, because it touches so many lifes such intimate levels.




-- 
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| Open PGP | http://felix.openflows.com/pgp.txt |



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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread lizvlx

Hello from se ossa side!*

> The sudden reduction (actually the absence) of handshakes and embraces with 
> acquaintnces and friends feels very sad. The whole range of physical and 
> social 
> contact suddenly gone. But this serves to highlight the importance of these 
> small 
> acts of social solidarity. Will there be a spike in the birthrate when the 
> epidemic 
> subsides.? A mini-Co19 baby boom

NOO it is awesome it is so great I am so happy.
I don’t like shaking pals hands or kissing them on the cheeks and hugs are 
the worst.
Finally these days the needs of autistic ppl are being met.
So do not DARE to call this sad. 8D
It might be sad for you. Which I am sorry about.
But it is sad for us autistic ppl every ’normal’ day on this planet when 
all you
neurotypical hoomans always creep into our personal spaces with superficial
smalltalk convos or big words that actually mean nothing.

Note: upper case letters are not screaming but expressive and ironic.

> On the comedic side the fact of telling yourself not to cough in confined 
> spaces like 
> trains or elevators in case you cause a minor panic has the weird effect of 
> actually 
> making you want to cough (is there a scientific name for this phenomenon..?) 

It dont matter so much anyway coz it stays in the air for about 3 hours. 
#wEallGoNnAdie 

Kind regards from Liz, 
Vienna Austria
Case numbers 304
Deaths 1
Expected case number in 2 weeks: 10.000
Schools closed/closing
Personal note: have had ‘cold’ with cough for 2 weeks. must be some virus.

* pls note the Austrian accent to this popular song
https://youtu.be/HZX1MrMqwes




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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread lizvlx


Question: I know that during epidemics and pandemics it is always the case that 
there is more men than women dying - but with coronavirus it is up to 80-90% 
male deaths. Is this scary for men 50+? I mean do you feel like targets?

Cheers
lizvlx

Ps: as always, excuse my frankness. Pls add polite n nice words inn yr head so 
it all sounds nicer.

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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread Eric Kluitenberg

Hi Sebastian, all,

Good questions - though I have not much to say about the (‘radical’?) left. But 
the schizo-analysis question is interesting: 

> On 12 Mar 2020, at 09:21, sebast...@rolux.org wrote:
> 
> - What is the perspective on coronavirus from the vantage point of
>  Schizoanalysis?

Probably a lot of points could be made, a.o. about the way in which existential 
territories are compromised by the mental distortions of (over-)reactions to 
the viral spread. However, for me the most interesting issue that has emerged 
is to think this through transversally across the ecological registers that 
Guattari has identified all the way back in 1989, i.e. the material 
environment, the social relations, and the individual universes of reference 
(subjective experience). What is missing in the model that Guattari proposed in 
The Three Ecologies, in general, but even more pressing right now, is the 
fourth register of nonhuman experience.

So we might ask, what does the COVID-19 emergence look and feel like from the 
perspective of the virus itself? How does it experience the hostility with 
which it was met upon its emanation into the existent? 

Some people have observed that maybe we should be humbled, as humans, to 
finally take the presence, the tendencies and the capacities of the nonhumans 
(including the viral nonhumans) seriously into account. Another fascinating 
suggestion was that with the virus spreading and human logistics disrupted the 
virus is able to do what the collective agency of the political elites and 
structures of governance have so far been totally unable to deliver: CO2 
emissions have been cut dramatically and continue to fall - to such an extent 
that we may, collectively, on a planetary level, still be able to deliver on 
the promises of CO2 reduction pledged in the Paris Climate Agreement.

If I wasn’t to sceptical by default I would almost be lead to wonder if this is 
Gaia responding to the human-induced planetary disequilibrium?

all bests,
Eric



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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread David Garcia


 On 12 Mar 2020, at 08:21, sebast...@rolux.org wrote:

> 
> But also:
> 
> - What is the perspective on coronavirus seen from where you are? What
>  are the most interesting or surprising narratives that are emerging
>  in your neighborhoods or communities?
> 
> - Given that social media just adds another layer of unhealthy virality
>  to the current situation, what forms of communication and care are
>  being invented or rediscovered locally?

The sudden reduction (actually the absence) of handshakes and embraces with 
acquaintnces and friends feels very sad. The whole range of physical and social 
contact suddenly gone. But this serves to highlight the importance of these 
small 
acts of social solidarity. Will there be a spike in the birthrate when the 
epidemic 
subsides.? A mini-Co19 baby boom

On the comedic side the fact of telling yourself not to cough in confined 
spaces like 
trains or elevators in case you cause a minor panic has the weird effect of 
actually 
making you want to cough (is there a scientific name for this phenomenon..?) 



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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread Morlock Elloi
3-4% of each of these groups will die, so it will likely be a uniting 
experience, a dismal failure of the identity politics, and therefore a 
serious problem for powers that be.


Unrelated, it's funny how coronavirus has the same effect at biological 
and social levels: the damage to the body is mostly due to the 
overreaction of the immune system, and the damage to the economy is due 
to the overreaction of the society. Somehow the ruling class calculated 
that it is worthwhile to decimate the economy to delay deaths by few 
weeks or months (idiotic statements about the virus getting tired 
notwithstanding.)




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Re: coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread Željko Blaće
YES - was just thinking along some of these lines...
Without being able to come up with good contributions quickly
to the main set of questions, I focus on 'But also' set:

Locally voices are mostly ranging between media hype followers
and cynical comments of media...luckily majority in Croatia
is still closer to the center than in these extremes.

More specifically in professionalized civil sector
(that I am kind of surrounded with here)
it is frustration with upcoming extra admin work
toward bureaucratic apparatus of funders
that need constant updates and control over
how funds are (not) spent...
There might be also some extra level of coordination
in civil-society-organizations of similar scale needed
to overcome these and other issues very soon,
so maybe it is solidarity in 'care over admin work'.

As for discovering of new it is too early, but there is
evidence of rediscovering in email (likely FB avoidance)
and conferencing tools (seeing limitations of 1:1 in FB).
I expect these tools to become central to compensating
for hyper-production of conferences, maybe revising
what is really urgent and necessary,
rather than a pro-forma/bulshit-event.

In short: "think globally, act locally" transforms into
'ignore global, think trans-local, act glocally' - no?

Best Z



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coronavirus questions

2020-03-12 Thread sebastian
I have a couple of coronavirus questions. These are neither necessarily
mine, nor did they arise in anticipation of satisfying answers.

- What is the perspective on coronavirus from the vantage point of the
  Radical (minoritarian) Left?

(This is a very different question from: What is the opinion about
coronavirus among progressives?, and totally different from: What is
my opinion about the Left?)

- What is the perspective on coronavirus from the vantage point of
  Schizoanalysis?

- What is the perspective on coronavirus from the vantage point of the
  Nouvelle Vague?

But also:

- What is the perspective on coronavirus seen from where you are? What
  are the most interesting or surprising narratives that are emerging
  in your neighborhoods or communities?

- Given that social media just adds another layer of unhealthy virality
  to the current situation, what forms of communication and care are
  being invented or rediscovered locally?


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