Re: FC8 & Pin error
On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 01:51 +0100, Luke Sheldrick wrote: > >Here's another question around the same > >subject... > > > >I changed contracts today on my data tarif, from > >T-Mobile to Vodafone. Tried the new sim in my > >D420 with Novatel minipci 5520, and seeing > >messages in the sys log >saying: > > > >Apr 28 16:48:26 D420 NetworkManager: > >check_pin_done(): PIN checking failed > > > ?Now it only does this for the new sim, which > doesn't have any pin enabled... Could you try: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=47431 and report the serial output? That build has serial debugging enabled and should let us see what's going wrong. Thanks! Dan > Not sure if anyone was able to look into this, but > just tried again using the latest NM: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# rpm -qa | grep Network > NetworkManager-devel-0.7.0-0.9.2.svn3566.fc8 > NetworkManager-0.7.0-0.9.2.svn3566.fc8 > NetworkManager-glib-devel-0.7.0-0.9.2.svn3566.fc8 > NetworkManager-debuginfo-0.7.0-0.9.2.svn3566.fc8 > NetworkManager-gnome-0.7.0-0.9.2.svn3566.fc8 > NetworkManager-glib-0.7.0-0.9.2.svn3566.fc8 > > and still seeing the errors,now on both sims.. > : > Apr 30 01:20:32 D420 NetworkManager: > Activation (ttyUSB0) Stage 1 of 5 (Device Prepare) > scheduled... > Apr 30 01:20:32 D420 NetworkManager: > Activation (ttyUSB0) Stage 1 of 5 (Device Prepare) > started... > Apr 30 01:20:32 D420 NetworkManager: > Activation (ttyUSB0) Stage 1 of 5 (Device Prepare) > complete. > Apr 30 01:20:32 D420 NetworkManager: > check_pin_done(): PIN checking failed > Apr 30 01:20:32 D420 NetworkManager: > Marking connection 'Auto GSM network connection' > invalid. > Apr 30 01:20:32 D420 NetworkManager: > Activation (ttyUSB0) failed. > Apr 30 01:20:32 D420 NetworkManager: > Deactivating device ttyUSB0. > > Have confirmed that there is no pin on the > vodafone card. > > Anyone any ideas? > > ___ > NetworkManager-list mailing list > NetworkManager-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: FC8
On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 12:56 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Into the fray here :-) Lets be clear, we are trying to make > generalizations between two different technologies. UMTS is > significantly different from EV-DO at all levels be it network, hardware, > at command sets, etc. Definitely. Though as our focus is on the user, hopefully no users have to care that we've had this discussion. It needs to just work for them, irregardless of the technology their particular provider or card uses. > >> > I don't believe you need the APN except in certain circumstances like > >> > roaming or other less-common configurations. We've got somebody > >> working > >> > on a mobile wizard that should be able to select the right APN for you > >> > though if you need it. > >> > >> Different APNs often mean different billing schemes - for my no-limit > >> flat > >> data plan i need a different APN than for the normal, data volume > >> charged data > >> plans. Guess what APN was stored in the SIM when i got it... > > Enabling APN in the GSM world is important - it allows carriers to > differentiate service capabilities, billing rates, and essentially allows > them to group or classify service offerings. There is no guarantee the > default profile or APN will be the one that should be used. EV-DO > doesn't quite have this concept, hence perhaps the importance is not so > obvious. Right. No argument there. APN is a heavily used GSM feature, and obviously its one NM must support and must support well. > >> > >> >> Was just wondering if it should show the network name, i.e. T-Mobile? > >> and is there a way to get it to show the signal strength? > >> > > >> > Yeah, both of these would be nice things to have. Unfortunately, some > >> > of that is blocked on the card vendors themselves becoming a bit more > >> > open. Most cards do not allow you to retrieve information about the > >> > connection while you're connected, unless you use a proprietary > >> protocol > >> > that you must license from the vendor. > > 1) In Asia/Europe where there are large numbers of carriers competeing for > your business, its pretty critical to be able to identify and select the > appropriate carrier. Of course; this has to happen no matter where you are. It's got to happen even in the US when you roam, since no carrier has 100% nationwide coverage. > 2) Network and signal should be available from the single AT port devices > before a PPP connection is established... which would be the critical > stage to look at these parameters. Both UMTS and EVDO cards should be > able to do this - albient using different AT commands (IS-707 for EV-DO TS > 127 007 for UMTS). Correct; we certainly can show signal strength before we connect, and we can and should check whether the card is actually locked on a tower before we allow the device to be activated. > >> > >> Please quantify "most cards". From the ~10 cards i have, only one, the > >> Novatel > >> X870 which only has one usable port, has this problem (but you can still > >> select the provider and check signal strength before connecting). > >> All other cards (Option, Sierra Wireless, Huawei) have two usable ports > >> and > >> you can use one of them to query for network data while being connected. > > > > Yes, you can do this on some cards. I've never said this was impossible > > for all cards. I just said it was impossible for huge numbers of common > > cards, many of which are CDMA, and many of which are GSM. > > > > Crass generalization here - from my own knowledge of the industry - not > from comments posted here: > > 1) Most (All?) EV-DO cards do not have a second AT command port (Market > factors perhaps?). Correct. > 2) Most UMTS cards built within the last 2 years have a second AT command > port Right. > 3) All cards older than 2 or so years have a single AT command port Seems to be the case from what I've seen. > 4) Some UMTS cards also support GSM 07.01 multiplexing, allowing multiple > ttys on a single USB endpoint. > > For the record: > > MC727 - EV-DO > S620 - EV-DO > AC595U - EV-DO > AC580 - EV-DO > AC860 - Older UMTS > PC5750 - EV-DO > KPC680 - EV-DO > > Thus I can see the difference in perception. Though I do have access to an MC8775 and an AC880, which supposedly do support AT commands on the secondary interface. My point is simply that a huge number of people in the US, whether they use GSM _or_ CDMA cellular providers, don't necessarily have the capability of signal strength while connected. > > > > > My point is that lots of people have cards that don't allow this > > functionality under Linux yet. If most cards used AT commands, I'd add > > support tomorrow. That would be awesome. > > I think the split rather runs - Lots of people with EV-DO cards or older > UMTS cards which cant support multiple AT ports, and another lots of > people with relatively new UMTS cards which do support multiple AT > ports... both are big groups, both are fo
Re: FC8
Into the fray here :-) Lets be clear, we are trying to make generalizations between two different technologies. UMTS is significantly different from EV-DO at all levels be it network, hardware, at command sets, etc. >> > I don't believe you need the APN except in certain circumstances like >> > roaming or other less-common configurations. We've got somebody >> working >> > on a mobile wizard that should be able to select the right APN for you >> > though if you need it. >> >> Different APNs often mean different billing schemes - for my no-limit >> flat >> data plan i need a different APN than for the normal, data volume >> charged data >> plans. Guess what APN was stored in the SIM when i got it... Enabling APN in the GSM world is important - it allows carriers to differentiate service capabilities, billing rates, and essentially allows them to group or classify service offerings. There is no guarantee the default profile or APN will be the one that should be used. EV-DO doesn't quite have this concept, hence perhaps the importance is not so obvious. >> >> >> Was just wondering if it should show the network name, i.e. T-Mobile? >> and is there a way to get it to show the signal strength? >> > >> > Yeah, both of these would be nice things to have. Unfortunately, some >> > of that is blocked on the card vendors themselves becoming a bit more >> > open. Most cards do not allow you to retrieve information about the >> > connection while you're connected, unless you use a proprietary >> protocol >> > that you must license from the vendor. 1) In Asia/Europe where there are large numbers of carriers competeing for your business, its pretty critical to be able to identify and select the appropriate carrier. 2) Network and signal should be available from the single AT port devices before a PPP connection is established... which would be the critical stage to look at these parameters. Both UMTS and EVDO cards should be able to do this - albient using different AT commands (IS-707 for EV-DO TS 127 007 for UMTS). >> >> Please quantify "most cards". From the ~10 cards i have, only one, the >> Novatel >> X870 which only has one usable port, has this problem (but you can still >> select the provider and check signal strength before connecting). >> All other cards (Option, Sierra Wireless, Huawei) have two usable ports >> and >> you can use one of them to query for network data while being connected. > > Yes, you can do this on some cards. I've never said this was impossible > for all cards. I just said it was impossible for huge numbers of common > cards, many of which are CDMA, and many of which are GSM. > Crass generalization here - from my own knowledge of the industry - not from comments posted here: 1) Most (All?) EV-DO cards do not have a second AT command port (Market factors perhaps?). 2) Most UMTS cards built within the last 2 years have a second AT command port 3) All cards older than 2 or so years have a single AT command port 4) Some UMTS cards also support GSM 07.01 multiplexing, allowing multiple ttys on a single USB endpoint. For the record: MC727 - EV-DO S620 - EV-DO AC595U - EV-DO AC580 - EV-DO AC860 - Older UMTS PC5750 - EV-DO KPC680 - EV-DO Thus I can see the difference in perception. > > My point is that lots of people have cards that don't allow this > functionality under Linux yet. If most cards used AT commands, I'd add > support tomorrow. That would be awesome. I think the split rather runs - Lots of people with EV-DO cards or older UMTS cards which cant support multiple AT ports, and another lots of people with relatively new UMTS cards which do support multiple AT ports... both are big groups, both are for the most part georaphically seperated. > don't, we need to understand the entire field; what cards do? how do > they support it? what cards don't? how can we easily identify cards > that do and cards that do not? If a card does, are there variations in > the commands and responses? This is where the umtsmon knowledge can be leveraged - there is alot of experience dealing with the tricks of the various cards to get them going sucessfully. > > The way this support gets into NetworkManager is going to be the > following: > > 1) Add a property in HAL to tag the secondary port that can be used for > communication, if it exists > > 2) Tag secondary ports of cards known to support AT commands with the > correct modem.command_sets properties, and then add the property from > (1) so we know they are a secondary port > > 3) Recognize secondary ports in NM, and for those cards that support > them, provide signal strength and connection speed status to the user > Sounds like a good plan to me - note secondary ports could be marked by what they support - be it AT commands or some proprietary protocol :) Cheers, Phil ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/n
RE: FC8
Here's another question around the same subject... I changed contracts today on my data tarif, from T-Mobile to Vodafone. Tried the new sim in my D420 with Novatel minipci 5520, and seeing messages in the sys log saying: Apr 28 16:48:26 D420 NetworkManager: check_pin_done(): PIN checking failed Now it only does this for the new sim, which doesn't have any pin enabled... ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: FC8
On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 10:38 +0200, Stefan Seyfried wrote: > Dan Williams wrote: > > On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 09:49 +0100, Luke Sheldrick wrote: > > >> Anyways it has detected my inbuilt 3g modem in my Dell D420, and amazingly > >> just connected... without the need to enter the APN or anything else? > > Yes, that's really scary, since you are not knowing which provider it is going > to use. Well, you'll know once you get the bill ;-) > > The card normally just uses the APN that's already stored in the SIM profile. > > But what i'd like to know: how did you enter the PIN for your SIM card? I was > not able to connect until i entered the PIN first with umtsmon or comgt. > > > I don't believe you need the APN except in certain circumstances like > > roaming or other less-common configurations. We've got somebody working > > on a mobile wizard that should be able to select the right APN for you > > though if you need it. > > Different APNs often mean different billing schemes - for my no-limit flat > data plan i need a different APN than for the normal, data volume charged data > plans. Guess what APN was stored in the SIM when i got it... > > >> Was just wondering if it should show the network name, i.e. T-Mobile? and > >> is there a way to get it to show the signal strength? > > > > Yeah, both of these would be nice things to have. Unfortunately, some > > of that is blocked on the card vendors themselves becoming a bit more > > open. Most cards do not allow you to retrieve information about the > > connection while you're connected, unless you use a proprietary protocol > > that you must license from the vendor. > > Please quantify "most cards". From the ~10 cards i have, only one, the Novatel > X870 which only has one usable port, has this problem (but you can still > select the provider and check signal strength before connecting). > All other cards (Option, Sierra Wireless, Huawei) have two usable ports and > you can use one of them to query for network data while being connected. Yes, you can do this on some cards. I've never said this was impossible for all cards. I just said it was impossible for huge numbers of common cards, many of which are CDMA, and many of which are GSM. The two Novatel cards I've used do not allow this (MC727, S620), none of the Sierra cards I have that have > 1 serial port do this (AC595U, AC580), the Kyocera card I've used (KPC680) does not, and the Pantech card (PC5750) doesn't either. I don't know whether the AC860 I have does, because it only exposes one serial port and therefore would need a multiplexer I guess. In addition, Sierra states here: http://www.sierrawireless.com/faq/ShowFAQ.aspx?ID=1119 "If you are using the AC875, MC8775, or later MiniCards, issue AT commands or queries to /dev/ttyUSB0. AT commands can be used while a data connection is established on /dev/ttyUSB2. All other GSM devices should issue AT commands/queries to /dev/ttyUSB0. However if a ppp connection is established on that port, AT commands cannot be used." Novatel states here (for the XU870 HSDPA card): http://www.novatelwireless.com/support/merlin-xu870-linux.html "Known Limitations * You cannot monitor card status such as signal strength, bytes exchanged, or connectivity status. The only network indication available is the wireless card LED that indicates if the card is in a coverage area. " In fact, I have not actually encountered a USB-based card that _does_ let me talk to it with minicom on ttyUSB1 or ttyUSB2 while it's connected. I know they are out there, they just aren't common in the Americas, whether they are GSM or CDMA doesn't make a difference. > This is also working for a long time in UMTSmon and Klaas would probably be > happy to answer questions about the cards and provide contacts into the > industry, if needed. I've also talked to people at Sierra and Novatel. They also state that most of their cards use proprietary protocols on the secondary and tertiary ports. I've heard that Option uses AT commands instead, which is nice. > > We're trying to pry some bits of > > those open, but it may take a while. There are a couple avenues though. > > I think that by just using the bits that are readily available, a much better > user experience would be possible today. My point is that lots of people have cards that don't allow this functionality under Linux yet. If most cards used AT commands, I'd add support tomorrow. That would be awesome. But since a huge number don't, we need to understand the entire field; what cards do? how do they support it? what cards don't? how can we easily identify cards that do and cards that do not? If a card does, are there variations in the commands and responses? The way this support gets into NetworkManager is going to be the following: 1) Add a property in HAL to tag the secondary port that can be used for communication, if it exists 2) Tag secondary ports of cards known to suppor
Re: FC8
> Umtsmon deliberately does not use HAL, since it is meant as a temporary > solution until NM is ready, and it is intended to be usable on a little bit > older systems that might not have the latest HAL. Umtsmon is not intended to > be a backend for anything, and it would be pretty hard to hack it into that. Ah, sorry, I misunderstood you. > Again: i was objecting the "we cannot do this because the evil card > maufacturers don't provide specs", which is the answer to every inquiry about > proper 3G support and is, IMVHO plain FUD. > It is possible. > It has been done. I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle. The main reason why NM support for mobile devices is lacking is that it's almost good enough for now (0.7 release) (the PIN entering you mentioned is a small bug and can be easily fixed). Some other parts of NM aren't. Tambet ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: FC8
Tambet Ingo wrote: > On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Stefan Seyfried <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I think that by just using the bits that are readily available, a much >> better >> user experience would be possible today. > > Sigh, I'm getting tired of hearing "use umtsmon" in every thread that > has a word "3g" or "umts" in it. I did not say "use umtsmon", i suggested to make use of the knowledge that has flown into it. But yes, it's nih, so this probably won't happen. > Until umtsmon works with CDMA (Dan > has explained it multiple times already), uses HAL for device > discovery (opening random files in /proc and /sys is so last century), > and most importantly, implements a DBus interface to control and > receive status changes, NetworkManager simply can not use it. Not > depending on Qt would certainly be a bonus too for a non-gui backend. Umtsmon deliberately does not use HAL, since it is meant as a temporary solution until NM is ready, and it is intended to be usable on a little bit older systems that might not have the latest HAL. Umtsmon is not intended to be a backend for anything, and it would be pretty hard to hack it into that. Again: i was objecting the "we cannot do this because the evil card maufacturers don't provide specs", which is the answer to every inquiry about proper 3G support and is, IMVHO plain FUD. It is possible. It has been done. -- Stefan Seyfried R&D Team Mobile Devices| "Any ideas, John?" SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Nürnberg | "Well, surrounding them's out." This footer brought to you by insane German lawmakers: SUSE Linux Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: FC8
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Stefan Seyfried <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think that by just using the bits that are readily available, a much better > user experience would be possible today. Sigh, I'm getting tired of hearing "use umtsmon" in every thread that has a word "3g" or "umts" in it. Until umtsmon works with CDMA (Dan has explained it multiple times already), uses HAL for device discovery (opening random files in /proc and /sys is so last century), and most importantly, implements a DBus interface to control and receive status changes, NetworkManager simply can not use it. Not depending on Qt would certainly be a bonus too for a non-gui backend. So if you're interested in implementing these changes, feel free to ask for the details what exactly would be needed. Or if you just want to advertise umtsmon, please do it elsewhere. Tambet ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
RE: FC8
>Yes, that's really scary, since you are not >knowing which provider it is going >to use. Well, you'll know once you get the bill >;-) Agreed, I think if it is going to connect, it's an absolute nessasity to tell you where it is connected. >The card normally just uses the APN that's >already stored in the SIM profile. Mine has 3 setup, so guess it is using the default, i.e. *99#? but as previously mentioned a feautre is on the way to enable which one you setup, a 'hot swap' option would be good, as I often flick between the 'generic' and 'vpn' apn that t-mobile uk offer. >But what i'd like to know: how did you enter the >PIN for your SIM card? I was >not able to connect until i entered the PIN first >with umtsmon or comgt. I didn't, I dont have a pin on my sim =P ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: FC8
Dan Williams wrote: > On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 09:49 +0100, Luke Sheldrick wrote: >> Anyways it has detected my inbuilt 3g modem in my Dell D420, and amazingly >> just connected... without the need to enter the APN or anything else? Yes, that's really scary, since you are not knowing which provider it is going to use. Well, you'll know once you get the bill ;-) The card normally just uses the APN that's already stored in the SIM profile. But what i'd like to know: how did you enter the PIN for your SIM card? I was not able to connect until i entered the PIN first with umtsmon or comgt. > I don't believe you need the APN except in certain circumstances like > roaming or other less-common configurations. We've got somebody working > on a mobile wizard that should be able to select the right APN for you > though if you need it. Different APNs often mean different billing schemes - for my no-limit flat data plan i need a different APN than for the normal, data volume charged data plans. Guess what APN was stored in the SIM when i got it... >> Was just wondering if it should show the network name, i.e. T-Mobile? and is >> there a way to get it to show the signal strength? > > Yeah, both of these would be nice things to have. Unfortunately, some > of that is blocked on the card vendors themselves becoming a bit more > open. Most cards do not allow you to retrieve information about the > connection while you're connected, unless you use a proprietary protocol > that you must license from the vendor. Please quantify "most cards". From the ~10 cards i have, only one, the Novatel X870 which only has one usable port, has this problem (but you can still select the provider and check signal strength before connecting). All other cards (Option, Sierra Wireless, Huawei) have two usable ports and you can use one of them to query for network data while being connected. This is also working for a long time in UMTSmon and Klaas would probably be happy to answer questions about the cards and provide contacts into the industry, if needed. > We're trying to pry some bits of > those open, but it may take a while. There are a couple avenues though. I think that by just using the bits that are readily available, a much better user experience would be possible today. Regards, Stefan -- Stefan Seyfried R&D Team Mobile Devices| "Any ideas, John?" SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Nürnberg | "Well, surrounding them's out." This footer brought to you by insane German lawmakers: SUSE Linux Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: FC8
On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 09:49 +0100, Luke Sheldrick wrote: > Hi all, > > Have just updated via yum update my fc8 laptop using the testing repos. It's > updated my network manager, I believe it will be the same as the new fc9? Not quite; what's in updates-testing usually lags somewhat behind rawhide. I usually try to build the latest NM snapshot into Koji for F8 at least once a week though, just to keep F8 up to date with the latest progress. > Anyways it has detected my inbuilt 3g modem in my Dell D420, and amazingly > just connected... without the need to enter the APN or anything else? I don't believe you need the APN except in certain circumstances like roaming or other less-common configurations. We've got somebody working on a mobile wizard that should be able to select the right APN for you though if you need it. > Was just wondering if it should show the network name, i.e. T-Mobile? and is > there a way to get it to show the signal strength? Yeah, both of these would be nice things to have. Unfortunately, some of that is blocked on the card vendors themselves becoming a bit more open. Most cards do not allow you to retrieve information about the connection while you're connected, unless you use a proprietary protocol that you must license from the vendor. We're trying to pry some bits of those open, but it may take a while. There are a couple avenues though. Dan ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
