Re[4]: [newbie] Great Article on Trusted Computing
Hello Richard, Monday, September 22, 2003, 12:11:17 AM, you wrote: RU On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 9:46 pm, rikona wrote: Sunday, September 21, 2003, 9:02:46 AM, Bryan wrote: With China on the horizon to soon adopt Linux, I expect to see major market splits very soon. China may save us after all, since they will be making everything. :-) RU So we're depending on China for upholding personal freedom? No, no, noo. Of course not. It is more like we can expect them to provide 'alternatives' to legally-imposed restrictions, especially in hardware. -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: Re[2]: [newbie] Great Article on Trusted Computing
On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 9:46 pm, rikona wrote: Sunday, September 21, 2003, 9:02:46 AM, Bryan wrote: With China on the horizon to soon adopt Linux, I expect to see major market splits very soon. China may save us after all, since they will be making everything. :-) So we're depending on China for upholding personal freedom? Anyone know any good planets? It's time I emigrated. -- Richard Urwin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Great Article on Trusted Computing
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:00:33 -0400 HaywireMac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the reality? What, if anything, do those of us who support computer/Internet privacy have to fear from the group and Trusted Computing Platforms? Plenty. First of all, the companies that constitute the Trusted Computing Group include many of the heavyweights of the personal computer industry -- Microsoft, IBM, Hewlett-Packard, Sony, Nokia and Intel, among others -- all of which are interested in protecting their interests, not yours. Most important, they propose to do this by advocating legislation that would require every computer sold to have a Trusted Platform Module. I know this is OT, but I just had to throw in my two cents worth on this. I read the article, and I was skeptical at first. I found the TCG site and read just their description of it and it sounded like just what is needed. So I proceeded to download the specification. I started reading the specification and my first reaction was that someone was being paranoid about all of this. It still sounded good. Then I started getting into some of the details. Now some of this is subject to interpretation, but this is how I interpreted it. In order for an entity (which could be a user or a software package) to take advantage of the TPM, it must have authorization data. Where does this authorization data come from? Not from the owner, (the person who physically owns the machine) not from the installer, although it could I suppose, but from another trusted entity. This entity can be over a network. Which if I'm interpreting this correctly, (bear in mind, I may not be, after all this was mind-numbing 332 pages worth of details) means that the company that produced the software can remotely download the authorization data onto your computer in order for your software to work. Furthermore, there is a validity field in this authorization data. That field c an have a time associated with it, which can define when the authorization data is valid for. There is how it is done! Of course you realize what this really means? Should this get implemented, everyone here in the US will start going over the border to get their computers and/or only run Linux on it. grin I apologize to all of those who are not in the US for this, but I wouldn't doubt but what if this does happen here that sooner or later it will start happening elsewhere. Be aware! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Great Article on Trusted Computing
On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 8:04 am, Thomas Williams wrote: On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:00:33 -0400 HaywireMac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... First of all, the companies that constitute the Trusted Computing Group include many of the heavyweights of the personal computer industry -- Microsoft, IBM, Hewlett-Packard, Sony, Nokia and Intel, among others -- all of which are interested in protecting their interests, not yours. Most important, they propose to do this by advocating legislation that would require every computer sold to have a Trusted Platform Module. ... Of course you realize what this really means? Should this get implemented, everyone here in the US will start going over the border to get their computers and/or only run Linux on it. grin Even more worrying is that it would effectively outlaw Linux. There is no way to ensure a Linux system runs the platform or runs it securely. I don't see that bothering the TCG much. I haven't read the spec., but I would expect that any TCmodule could be remotely detected by those it is supposed to work with, ie govenment and big corporations. If they scan you and you aren't running it you can expect a visit from the police. I apologize to all of those who are not in the US for this, but I wouldn't doubt but what if this does happen here that sooner or later it will start happening elsewhere. Be aware! If it does happen in the USA they will try to make damn sure it happens elsewhere. Nobody is going to buy computers off them if they don't have to. Enter trade sanctions etc. etc., all with a high moral stance that politicians will love. -- Richard Urwin All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Great Article on Trusted Computing
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 03:04:11 -0400 Thomas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Of course you realize what this really means? Should this get implemented, everyone here in the US will start going over the border to get their computers and/or only run Linux on it. grin The SNAFU Principle: SNAFU principle /sna'foo prin'si-pl/ /n./ [from a WWII Army acronym for `Situation Normal, All Fucked Up'] True communication is possible only between equals, because inferiors are more consistently rewarded for telling their superiors pleasant lies than for telling the truth. -- a central tenet of Discordianism, often invoked by hackers to explain why authoritarian hierarchies screw up so reliably and systematically. The effect of the SNAFU principle is a progressive disconnection of decision-makers from reality. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Having the fewest wants, I am nearest to the gods. -- Socrates Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Great Article on Trusted Computing
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:45:29 +0100 Richard Urwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Even more worrying is that it would effectively outlaw Linux. Exactement, and in doing so, would drive us underground, fulfilling the principle I noted, and effectively disarm the powers-that-be utterly. Look what the community did to Verisign, over a relatively trivial issue (relative to this TCI crap anyway). Imagine... -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Reality is just a crutch for people who can't handle science fiction. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Great Article on Trusted Computing
On Sun, 2003-09-21 at 05:47, HaywireMac wrote: On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 03:04:11 -0400 Thomas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Of course you realize what this really means? Should this get implemented, everyone here in the US will start going over the border to get their computers and/or only run Linux on it. grin The SNAFU Principle: SNAFU principle /sna'foo prin'si-pl/ /n./ [from a WWII Army acronym for `Situation Normal, All Fucked Up'] True communication is possible only between equals, because inferiors are more consistently rewarded for telling their superiors pleasant lies than for telling the truth. -- a central tenet of Discordianism, often invoked by hackers to explain why authoritarian hierarchies screw up so reliably and systematically. The effect of the SNAFU principle is a progressive disconnection of decision-makers from reality. For those of you in the Bible belt... `Situation Normal, All Fouled Up'... -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Great Article on Trusted Computing
On Sun, 2003-09-21 at 05:47, HaywireMac wrote: On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 03:04:11 -0400 Thomas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Of course you realize what this really means? Should this get implemented, everyone here in the US will start going over the border to get their computers and/or only run Linux on it. grin The SNAFU Principle: SNAFU principle /sna'foo prin'si-pl/ /n./ [from a WWII Army acronym for `Situation Normal, All Fucked Up'] True communication is possible only between equals, because inferiors are more consistently rewarded for telling their superiors pleasant lies than for telling the truth. -- a central tenet of Discordianism, often invoked by hackers to explain why authoritarian hierarchies screw up so reliably and systematically. The effect of the SNAFU principle is a progressive disconnection of decision-makers from reality. I think this would have been a good inclusion to the thread that asked about including the RFC to the twiki... the reason RFCs are so damn polite is exactly this,,, ARPA, DARPA, are still DOD... -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Great Article on Trusted Computing
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 06:19:55 -0400 HaywireMac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:45:29 +0100 Richard Urwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Even more worrying is that it would effectively outlaw Linux. Exactement, and in doing so, would drive us underground, fulfilling the principle I noted, and effectively disarm the powers-that-be utterly. Look what the community did to Verisign, over a relatively trivial issue (relative to this TCI crap anyway). Imagine... -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org Neat idea! Jail linux users. Look Mom, I'm an inmate! Lee Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Great Article on Trusted Computing
On Sunday 21 September 2003 05:45 am, Richard Urwin wrote: On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 8:04 am, Thomas Williams wrote: On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:00:33 -0400 HaywireMac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... First of all, the companies that constitute the Trusted Computing Group include many of the heavyweights of the personal computer industry -- Microsoft, IBM, Hewlett-Packard, Sony, Nokia and Intel, among others -- all of which are interested in protecting their interests, not yours. Most important, they propose to do this by advocating legislation that would require every computer sold to have a Trusted Platform Module. ... Of course you realize what this really means? Should this get implemented, everyone here in the US will start going over the border to get their computers and/or only run Linux on it. grin Actually, this is not really all that much of a concern. The way that it will be implemented, much like Palladium (which is the same thing) is that it will be integrated into the processor, it will be on/off enabled, and Linux will not be part of it (not that it needs to be, MS is effectively trying to make an unsecure architecture secure by building thicker doors, and the effort is doomed to failure). The result will be that people will still buy the same computers but you will have two choices, either you run Linux or another competing OS and turn the chip feature off, or you run MS and turn it on. Since MS has been trying from day one to make people make a firm choice between MS and others OS's and not let them have access to the benefits of both, it will simply force people to make the necessary choice. I expect it to be a boon for Linux. All the more so because those people who are willing to be put in a straight jacket to be safe will opt for that platform and leave free computing to those of us who are willing to expend the effort to do it right. Even more worrying is that it would effectively outlaw Linux. There is no way to ensure a Linux system runs the platform or runs it securely. I don't see that bothering the TCG much. Just means that Linux will have to run outside of it. Just like the V-Chip in TV's, you can force manufacturers to install them but you can not mandate that consumers use them. With China on the horizon to soon adopt Linux, I expect to see major market splits very soon. I haven't read the spec., but I would expect that any TCmodule could be remotely detected by those it is supposed to work with, ie govenment and big corporations. If they scan you and you aren't running it you can expect a visit from the police. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you, but you're still paranoid. Gee, I know all this big brother stuff is supposed to be in vogue but there are 260M people in the US. Even if they wanted to scan everyone's computer, they simply don't have the manpower or time. Hell, they can't even catch muslim terrorists and the subset of those guys are much lower than everybody. -- Bryan Phinney Software Test Engineer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re[2]: [newbie] Great Article on Trusted Computing
Hello Bryan, Sunday, September 21, 2003, 9:02:46 AM, you wrote: BP it will be on/off enabled, Only if this is forced by us. This is not the desires of those pushing the idea. BP The result will be that people will still buy the same computers BP but you will have two choices, either you run Linux or another BP competing OS and turn the chip feature off, One of the ideas is that this chip will control/oversee the boot - no chip, no boot. Also, another idea is to have chips in other hardware too, such as drives. So far, this has been beaten down, but it WILL rise again, this time better disguised. BP All the more so because those people who are willing to be put in BP a straight jacket to be safe will opt for that platform and leave BP free computing to those of us who are willing to expend the BP effort to do it right. It depends what you are trying to be safe FROM. :-) I'm more worried about what M$, RIAA, Govt, media cartel, etc will do than I am about viruses. BP Just means that Linux will have to run outside of it. May not work. The chip(s) may also be used for authentication as well. This is where the REAL control will come. Want to view/listen to legal media? Won't happen without the chip. You want to surf? Well - you'll have to use the chip to be authenticated for banking, buying, etc. Want email? You might have to be authenticated by the server to get your mail. And so on... Also, the temptation to require the chip for ALL surfing will be hard to resist. The chip could allow snooping that may be difficult to get around, and non-removable spyware. M$ wants to control the net. This will be a key to allowing that control. Authentication is a major upcoming issue, and the way we will be controlled if we're not careful. BP With China on the horizon to soon adopt Linux, I expect to see major market BP splits very soon. China may save us after all, since they will be making everything. :-) The question is still about authentication, though. BP Even if they wanted to scan everyone's computer, they simply BP don't have the manpower or time. Doesn't take manpower, just computing power, and we'll have lots of that. We already have companies building dossiers of most of the population. The govt likes this, since it doesn't take any of their $$ or effort, and often companies do it better. :-) BP Hell, they can't even catch muslim terrorists and the subset of those guys are BP much lower than everybody. It's not about catching terr's, it's about population control. The terr threat is just an excuse to scare people into saying OK. Whaddaya mean I'm paranoid? -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
