Re: [newbie] Living in the real world - Win4Lin4 NO INTEREST TO GEEK FOLKS
Hi Sridhar, First, thanks for all the help I've seen you offer to newbie and geek alike here, me included. I am very happy to discuss the bits of the GNU World that I can, seeing as my contributions technically are zilch! My only skill is really in seeing solutions for sick corporations - and sometimes people who are really ill. MOST people like to contribute in some way, there are really very few - and usually very young and frustrated - who don't. As Joy C says, Even Cybervandals (scriptkiddies) usually burn into people by 30. I am very happy to help anyone where I can and discussing practical commerce-oriented matters is where I do have the experience to share is how to do it. Answers to your post : ** - Original Message - From: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Living in the real world - Win4Lin4 NO INTEREST TO GEEK FOLKS Wordperfect was one of the first things I got going myself after I started using GNU/Linux. I had next to no GNU/Linux experience at the time, but I found the installation to be a breeze. It is a free (as in beer) download. *** There was a post here about it a week ago - I couldn't even understand the simple destructions needed. :-) I did try and install a freebie copy way back when but it had no sense to it for a non-geek. The expert at the Oz Computer magazine confessed he couldn't either at the time. FrontPage98 is a joke. It is malware like this that is destroying the open Internet. I agree it could be lots better, but an awful lot of pros use it for QANTAS ( No, not the Airline, Quick And Not Too Arty Sites). I know of nothing faster and easier anywhere for non-geeks. So long as you don't use FP Extensions and keep off IIS Sites... there aren't a lot of tricks to using it. :-) 2. If you are a serious business user, you NEED to be moving toward voice recognition as you know. No, I don't know. Why would a business need voice recognition? I once tried using Viavoice for a whole year -- my productivity decreased despite my best efforts at speaking clearly (something which I've been told I'm good at) and training the software. These packages often advertise 90%-95% accuracy. This sounds great, until you realise that this means that every 10-20 words will be incorrectly interpreted. John Dvorak recently wrote an interesting article on the topic: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-826862.html. A point at a time: 1. Because real men never did type and modern liberated females won't anymore. :-) Like Dvorak, you might have vocal range problem, much less an accent one. I couldn't imagine a Good Ol' Boy ever getting to use it, or an excitable Southern Indian. :-) More to the point, at around 40 w.p.m. with 90% accuracy as a typist, VR will break even under most conditions. Over that it drops rapidly. HOWEVER , in the publishing world, in technical material we used to cost on 19 w.p.m. with girls whose rating was 65 w.p.m. in Pittmans test. In the real world ( that phrase again!) it was extremely rare to find an executive that could properly dictate to a stenographer. They were status symbols for the most part. As a professional dictator (ha!) I must say I do know few people as experienced, trained and natural as me at it, for over 30 years. I am approximately 120% more effective/productive using VR. BUT as a typist I am only quite fast - about twice the rate of finished work as an average self-typing person creatively trying to do the two things at once. But poor old Dvorak - a most unhappy puppy alla time - lives in the wannabee world of pontificating pundits. He has no idea of the incredible science and wonder that has got VR this far! But, it isn't for everyone. Like playing with command lines thrashing around with broken software and loving it! :-) What is your definition of incredibly poor presentation? Open source developers usually prefer to focus on code quality rather than polish. MS bangs-and-whistles. * I used to teach methods engineering ( IT speak Systems Analysis) and the very first thing I would stress was: forget the production, write the manual. Do that first and you will always do well. Yes, it is boring - and usually embarrassing, too. But I also meant overall. The physical display of onscreen fonts was not acceptable to a serious user. Imagine trying to write for 5 hours using it. StarOffice and KDE (to use your examples) are very usable and stable. They _do_ have extensive help structures, so either you didn't install them or you just didn't look properly. * No they just weren't there - it was a problem not resolved at the time on this list - it was a known bug as I recall. Nothing is perfect. Go to a Windows list and I'll guarantee you that you'll see many users with problems. On this list, most problems are quite minor, and many messages are simple enquiries. Oh, I agree 100%
Re: [newbie] Living in the real world - Win4Lin4 NO INTEREST TO GEEK FOLKS
On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:59:42 +1000, john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Sridhar, First, thanks for all the help I've seen you offer to newbie and geek alike here, me included. I am very happy to discuss the bits of the GNU World that I can, seeing as my contributions technically are zilch! My only skill is really in seeing solutions for sick corporations - and sometimes people who are really ill. But we're not dealing with a corporation here, we're dealing with a community. Anything you do to Mandrake needs to be community-compatible. MOST people like to contribute in some way, there are really very few - and usually very young and frustrated - who don't. As Joy C says, Even Cybervandals (scriptkiddies) usually burn into people by 30. I am very happy to help anyone where I can and discussing practical commerce-oriented matters is where I do have the experience to share is how to do it. Answers to your post : ** - Original Message - From: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Living in the real world - Win4Lin4 NO INTEREST TO GEEK FOLKS 2. If you are a serious business user, you NEED to be moving toward voice recognition as you know. No, I don't know. Why would a business need voice recognition? I once tried using Viavoice for a whole year -- my productivity decreased despite my best efforts at speaking clearly (something which I've been told I'm good at) and training the software. These packages often advertise 90%-95% accuracy. This sounds great, until you realise that this means that every 10-20 words will be incorrectly interpreted. John Dvorak recently wrote an interesting article on the topic: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-826862.html. A point at a time: 1. Because real men never did type and modern liberated females won't anymore. :-) Like Dvorak, you might have vocal range problem, much less an accent one. I couldn't imagine a Good Ol' Boy ever getting to use it, or an excitable Southern Indian. :-) I wouldn't know, because I'm not Southern Indian. Your assumption would be like me thinking you're English simply because the name John came from England. I was born in Australia, and years of private school education has trained me to speak clearly and properly. I pronounce my words in the 'proper' (i.e. British) fashion (although this wasn't something which was taught at school), and I don't have a vocal range problem. I was using the British English version of Viavoice, which better suits my voice than the American one. More to the point, at around 40 w.p.m. with 90% accuracy as a typist, VR will break even under most conditions. Over that it drops rapidly. HOWEVER , in the publishing world, in technical material we used to cost on 19 w.p.m. with girls whose rating was 65 w.p.m. in Pittmans test. In the real world ( that phrase again!) it was extremely rare to find an executive that could properly dictate to a stenographer. They were status symbols for the most part. As a professional dictator (ha!) I must say I do know few people as experienced, trained and natural as me at it, for over 30 years. I am approximately 120% more effective/productive using VR. BUT as a typist I am only quite fast - about twice the rate of finished work as an average self-typing person creatively trying to do the two things at once. But poor old Dvorak - a most unhappy puppy alla time - lives in the wannabee world of pontificating pundits. He has no idea of the incredible science and wonder that has got VR this far! But, it isn't for everyone. Like playing with command lines thrashing around with broken software and loving it! :-) Most (probably over 95%) of businesses are still not using voice dictation, and probably won't be doing so for the foreseeable future. What is your definition of incredibly poor presentation? Open source developers usually prefer to focus on code quality rather than polish. MS bangs-and-whistles. * I used to teach methods engineering ( IT speak Systems Analysis) and the very first thing I would stress was: forget the production, write the manual. Do that first and you will always do well. Yes, it is boring - and usually embarrassing, too. But I also meant overall. The physical display of onscreen fonts was not acceptable to a serious user. Imagine trying to write for 5 hours using it. Ah, Systems Analysis! I studied that last year. The course was 100% buzzword-compliant. I don't think I learned anything truly useful from it at all. University IT courses nowadays (at least in Australia) seem to be headed by business and marketing people who know nothing about technology and how it really works. It is these sorts of people who created the entire Dot Com speculative bubble, which as you should know burst and hurt everyone. Ever wonder why countries like Japan and South Korea
Re: [newbie] Living in the real world - Win4Lin4 NO INTEREST TO GEEK FOLKS
I generally avoid these kinds of discussions but I feel compelled to respond. I have two computers, both of which use Linux (one dual boots WinXp so I can play games and use my SanDisk card reader as it's not yet supported under Linux). One runs 8.1 and the other 8.2rc1 (I see no reason to go full out to 8.2 because the beta works awesomely imo). Anyway, they both installed without a hitch and work perfectly. 8.2 even set up my printer and Zip Disk (Both USB) without any (except a couple of clicks) input. I only have minor problems, but no different than I would have under Windows - AND I didn't have to install ANY Drivers - it even recognized my Audigy sound card! Can't get much easier than that - dealing with Driver disks is always a gotcha for non-geeks. Linux runs and installs effortlessly. James _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Living in the real world - Win4Lin4 NO INTEREST TO GEEK FOLKS
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:16:48 +1000 john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snippage Even Civilme (the resident expert on the Newbie list) THOUGHT he was putting me in my place by telling me that in some Govt Dept they had some typistes*actually* using Linux and olde Star Office. BUT then went on and said they were *using* WorpdPerfect! (Sigh) A separate and quite expensive product(but very good) except that nobody I know outside of Civilme has ever got it to go on and work! = Nonsense!! I'm no geek..., just an OK user. Out of sheer curiosity, I intalled Mandrake 5.3 on one of our lab computers back in April of 1999 (I think?). I had NEVER used linux before. It installed OK (despite not fully supporting our S3 video card). I downloaded WordPerfect 8.0 for linux and got it successfully installed LONG before I understood anything about tar/configure, etc., etc. How? I *read* and *FOLLOWED* the directions. First try, I got it to work and even borrowed a fellow teacher's floppy (had to learn the mount comand real quick ;o) ) and opened her WordPerfect for Windows files flawlessly. AND printed them on an old HPDeskJet 695c. Lucky, I suppose, but I credit it to *reading* carefully and following the directions. I went on to loading Caldera 2.2 onto a Toshiba notebook w/o any problem and have since used a variety of distros on a variety of computers: desktops/server/and several notebooks. I believe you really need a Geek to get you online.=== Nope! Got home home computer and a notebook (that old Toshiba) hooked up with an external modem on the very first try. I just followed the directions shrug. At work, my ethernet card has ALWAYS been automagically configured (I wouldn't have had a clue!!) and worked immediately, even with that old Mandrake 5.3 version!!!snippage Cheers, Mike -- You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. - Frank Zappa _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Living in the real world - Win4Lin4 NO INTEREST TO GEEK FOLKS
Since nobody on this list is a non-geek in your mind, isn't your message a colossal waste of your time? ZZZzz . . . *plonk* -- Todd Slater What does education often do? It makes a straight cut ditch of a free meandering brook. (Henry David Thoreau) On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:16:48 +1000 john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Non-geeks, Good news - but like the Curate's egg, only - quite good in parts :-) [and lots of other shit] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Living in the real world - Win4Lin4 NO INTEREST TO GEEK FOLKS
On Thursday 21 March 2002 02:50 am, James Thomas wrote: I generally avoid these kinds of discussions but I feel compelled to respond. Thanks for not including the original troll ;) Best way to handle is to put 'em on ignore. One runs 8.1 and the other 8.2rc1 (I see no reason to go full out to 8.2 because the beta works awesomely imo). Well, I'm been usin 8.2 since the Christmas cooker thanks to a good friend on the list that sent me the CD's before Cheapbytes had 'em. Absolutely no problems even with that alpha version. Some non-Mandrake software apps need to catch up a little, but NBD. Now I've got 8.2b2, but with 100's of MB's of cooker updates. Still no problems, but I ordered 8.2 final CD's anyway. Nice to have 'em, and not need to archive lot'sa update rpm's. 'Sides, it's a good way to get current, clean up (ie, fresh install), and then start addin in newer cooker updates again ;) -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Living in the real world - Win4Lin4 NO INTEREST TO GEEK FOLKS
On Thursday 21 March 2002 16:45, Michael Scottaline wrote: [snippet] Nope! Got home home computer and a notebook (that old Toshiba) hooked up with an external modem on the very first try. I just followed the directions shrug. I think Mike hit the nail on the head there. OK, there are plenty of real problems with hardware configuration, but most problems occur because people don't follow the directions, or in pther words RTFM (don't let that put anyone off posting problems though - RTFM is one reply that isn't tolerated on this list!). People woh don't follw the directions (i.e. click on the first thing they see) also have problems installing Windows, or anything, for that matter. BTW, the reason Mdk didn't support the S3 card in 1999 was probably that virtually nothing did. Win95 doesn't support the S3Trio (though you can download drivers). It's a truly disguting piece of hardware. Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Living in the real world - Win4Lin4 NO INTEREST TO GEEK FOLKS
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:16:48 +1000, john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] spoke thusly: I almost fell off my highchair when I learned it is limited to 64k. Considering that's not true, I would have fallen out of my chair, too. Even Civilme (the resident expert on the Newbie list) THOUGHT he was putting me in my place by telling me that in some Govt Dept they had some typistes *actually* using Linux and olde Star Office. BUT then went on and said they were *using* WorpdPerfect! (Sigh) A separate and quite expensive product (but very good) except that nobody I know outside of Civilme has ever got it to go on and work! Are you implying that there are no places on the planet that use StarOffice? My company uses it. And all my friends with a computer do too--(non-geeks) despite having access to M$ Office. As for other companies, have you ever visited http://www.mandrakebizcase.com ? You will need to consider some of the Doze options for some time to come, in my *practical applications* opinion. I would consider the following practical: office productivity tasks (i.e. word processing, spreadsheets, etc.), e-mail, web browsing, listening to music (MP3/OGG), and thematic eye-candy for the weary eye. These are all no-brainers in Linux. True, Linux may lack specialty apps, like FrontPage, but what percentage of computer users need a WYSIWYG web authoring tool? Win4Lin doesn't support anything fancy at all . No sound, no fancy computational/graphical demands . Did a VMware sales rep tell you that? It does support sound, and it handles graphics fine. I use Photoshop every other day, and the only draw back is the lack of Apple's gamma loader for screen calibration which is hardly a crisis. 4. Sensible backups to CD? Forget it! I have learned that this is a non-event for Win4Lin for the forseeable future. You can make your own Win4Lin backup from the Linux side which, in fact, is more powerful and flexible than it could ever be in Winsux. 5. The 8.2 Mandrake had terrific writeups in the press - but in the light of the failures being experienced by the geek contingent on this list already, it is a loong way off being real-world ready. It is actually trashing many previously hard-won working installations! You're delusional. 6. It appears to me to be still the most fabulous Server System in the world and great fun for the hobbyist/masochist, but I am still highly motivated by the continual failures of the MS OS and their draconian plans for the future, so will keep coming back in hopes. The problem is not with Mandrake, it's with you. Seeing as that's not likely to change, I don't see much point in you coming back. 1. I did own a specialised Networking Company before it was even called that! So I KNOW what can go wrong. ... in what, staffing and financing issues? I now believe that even a Civilme(expert) could take literally days to get an existing Hardware system up and WORKABLY on line. Like I said: delusional. Civileme could get Linux running on a bread maker and in less time that it took you to spin this drivel. NOTE: Because of the problems caused by Spammers, all email addressses must be real ( no freeby things like Hotmail etc) You can get advance info by going here, which is an autoresponder, and to subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you, Sinsei Spammer. If wanting something to be so was enough, we could create Hell, right here on earth Kilneth (Think about THAT one! :-) ) If wanting something to be so was enough, we could send John to Mars, right here and now Miark (Think about that one! :-P Miark Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Living in the real world - Win4Lin4 NO INTEREST TO GEEK FOLKS
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:16:48 +1000, john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Even Civilme (the resident expert on the Newbie list) THOUGHT he was putting me in my place by telling me that in some Govt Dept they had some typistes *actually* using Linux and olde Star Office. BUT then went on and said they were *using* WorpdPerfect! (Sigh) A separate and quite expensive product (but very good) except that nobody I know outside of Civilme has ever got it to go on and work! Wordperfect was one of the first things I got going myself after I started using GNU/Linux. I had next to no GNU/Linux experience at the time, but I found the installation to be a breeze. It is a free (as in beer) download. 1. There is nothing like even FrontPage98 in the Linux world that I could get to install/see working. One of them trashed one of my semi-successful installs completely. ( I also used the one IBM bought out, in its Doze form and it was full of holes.) FrontPage98 is a joke. It is malware like this that is destroying the open Internet. 2. If you are a serious business user, you NEED to be moving toward voice recognition as you know. No, I don't know. Why would a business need voice recognition? I once tried using Viavoice for a whole year -- my productivity decreased despite my best efforts at speaking clearly (something which I've been told I'm good at) and training the software. These packages often advertise 90%-95% accuracy. This sounds great, until you realise that this means that every 10-20 words will be incorrectly interpreted. John Dvorak recently wrote an interesting article on the topic: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-826862.html. 3. I don't think the available products that I used, when I did sometimes get Manrake to *partially* work, are anywhere near commercial acceptability. ( Star Office, KDE etc. incredibly poor presentation and often almost non-existent help structures). What is your definition of incredibly poor presentation? Open source developers usually prefer to focus on code quality rather than polish. MS products are riddled with bugs and holes; you just don't notice them as much because the source is closed and they deliberately obscure things with bangs-and-whistles. StarOffice and KDE (to use your examples) are very usable and stable. They _do_ have extensive help structures, so either you didn't install them or you just didn't look properly. 5. The 8.2 Mandrake had terrific writeups in the press - but in the light of the failures being experienced by the geek contingent on this list already, it is a loong way off being real-world ready. It is actually trashing many previously hard-won working installations! Nothing is perfect. Go to a Windows list and I'll guarantee you that you'll see many users with problems. On this list, most problems are quite minor, and many messages are simple enquiries. 6. It appears to me to be still the most fabulous Server System in the world and great fun for the hobbyist/masochist, but I am still highly motivated by the continual failures of the MS OS and their draconian plans for the future, so will keep coming back in hopes. You seem awfully pessimistic for one who is in hopes. I believe you really need a Geek to get you online. Back in 2000, I decided to give Win2K a test drive. The CD refused to boot into the installer, even though I had installed numerous GNU/Linux distros this way. After pouring through the docs on the CD, I managed to make some discs from which to start the installation. IIRC, there were _five_ of them. Next, I started the installation with the discs. After an inordinate amount of time waiting for it to load (not because of the discs), I was thrown into a boring-looking text-based installer. It refused to accept my PartitionMagic-made NTFS partition, and proceeded to reformat it. After that, the installation began. A long time and several gigabytes (!) later, the installation was complete. I rebooted, but the system refused to boot into Win2K! I tried the whole installation process two more times before giving up. Then the geekiness kicked in. I remembered that LILO used to have a problem with booting from a partition that was past the 1024th cylinder on a drive. I deduced that Win2K might have the same problem (probably deliberately, to prevent users from dual-booting with a non-MS OS). I repartitioned my drive, making an NTFS partition at the beginning. After reinstalling Win2k, it booted to the GUI. Had I not been a geek, I would not hae known this relatively obscure tidbit of information. Getting online was the interesting bit. I have a Netcomm external modem (which are very common in Australia), which has a _real_ Rockwell (now Connexant) chipset. I tried a variety of different generic and vendor-issued drivers, and I tried just about every Dial-up-networking setting. After a week of trying and then giving up, my modem magically started to work. I still don't know why this happened. In
[newbie] Living in the real world - Win4Lin4 NO INTEREST TO GEEK FOLKS
Hello Non-geeks, Good news - but like the Curate's egg, only - quite good in parts :-) Win4lin is to release a new product soon which will release more memory for operations in Windoze. I almost fell off my highchair when I learned it is limited to 64k. BUT apparently is so efficient in the use of it under Linux that it doesn't do too badly at all. As a solution though, it is still very loose for the serious (but non-geek) user. Even Civilme (the resident expert on the Newbie list) THOUGHT he was putting me in my place by telling me that in some Govt Dept they had some typistes *actually* using Linux and olde Star Office. BUT then went on and said they were *using* WorpdPerfect! (Sigh) A separate and quite expensive product (but very good) except that nobody I know outside of Civilme has ever got it to go on and work! You will need to consider some of the Doze options for some time to come, in my *practical applications* opinion. Here is the game state up to now as I have been able to drag it out in the last month since I returned to see if the performance had improved for Mandrake since I gave up on 8.0: 1. There is nothing like even FrontPage98 in the Linux world that I could get to install/see working. One of them trashed one of my semi-successful installs completely. ( I also used the one IBM bought out, in its Doze form and it was full of holes.) 2. If you are a serious business user, you NEED to be moving toward voice recognition as you know. Win4Lin doesn't support anything fancy at all . No sound, no fancy computational/graphical demands . BUT They do expect to have a decent amount of memory available in V4 for our bloated MS products. You do have the option of using the IBM ViaVoice product - if you can ever get Linux working on your system, but I've not tried it and it is a lower-level version than the outside world version. BTW: Be careful of the included Software with anyone's packages, but Mandrakes 8.0 claimed to include Via Voice et al and I've since been told that they were only trial programs!! (Nobody I personally know has been able to get Mandrake any distro to work properly, you see, so this is heresay... ) 3. I don't think the available products that I used, when I did sometimes get Manrake to *partially* work, are anywhere near commercial acceptability. ( Star Office, KDE etc. incredibly poor presentation and often almost non-existent help structures). 4. Sensible backups to CD? Forget it! I have learned that this is a non-event for Win4Lin for the forseeable future. But, I don't know anyone that got anything simple like Doze's Nero or EZCD to go under Linux and several Geeks (privately) told me to forget it. Borne out by the massive problems reported on the list here with CDR much less CDW). 5. The 8.2 Mandrake had terrific writeups in the press - but in the light of the failures being experienced by the geek contingent on this list already, it is a loong way off being real-world ready. It is actually trashing many previously hard-won working installations! 6. It appears to me to be still the most fabulous Server System in the world and great fun for the hobbyist/masochist, but I am still highly motivated by the continual failures of the MS OS and their draconian plans for the future, so will keep coming back in hopes. SUMMARY: I believe you really need a Geek to get you online. BUT Be careful! I've wasted money on would-be experts - but I must say I was sympathetic on 2 grounds: 1. I did own a specialised Networking Company before it was even called that! So I KNOW what can go wrong. 2. Distros are notoriously confounded by the insane desperate attempt to serve 2 masters: the poor Geek who wants/expects everything in life to be free, including full-blown Server Systems(!) and the real world market which simply wants to pay its money and get a working, useful product. SO, get a fixed price for the job. NEVER pay by the hour - even $5 p.h. !!! I now believe that even a Civilme(expert) could take literally days to get an existing Hardware system up and WORKABLY on line. *** (Having said that, there is an interesting piece in the E-News REALITY in the next week or so.) Do be prepared to install Win4Lin to keep access to your proven and trained-in products. I have heard of excellent results from people using Lotus Smartsuite in these conditions. Do have one or more systems Windows bootable with Win4Lin and use Linux as a dedicated Internet Server on another, if possible. DON'T DO ANYTHING NOW. Unless you can dedicate a lot of non-producing time to the project, it is still early days. By all means, get a standby machine and have a go. But, don't attempt serious business integration for some time yet. I believe that someone of (business) maturity will take over in Mandrake, or one of the many others and do the bleedin' obvious ( to any experienced businessman) and get out a productivity-designed package for the 90
