Re: [newbie] Mixed Marriage - Making it work, together: CL vs GUI To Help A Newby
I know John will never see MY reply, since i won't allow him to profit from his collection of posts if they include quoting me, but since he elected to continue this and seems to enjoy it I think I might owe Judith an apology, since I went on a tangnet over the use of intuitive, when if I had given due consideration, I would have considered it was the lake of the word _more_ as in: I find the Apple MORE intuitive than winders (not the exact quote, nor my feelings re; Mac -vs- winders). I promise myself I will strive to include a comparison when using intuitive in this context. NEXT, it is my feeling that I have ONE MAIN problem with both of your posts, and it may be just the difference in the language between where we learned English on the planet, but I perceive that you both often make statements of fact, with out backup, or qualifiers, of what may well be your personal opinions. John wrote, The greatest problem in presenting alternative - not even better - solutions to tasks is the cultural problem. *My* way has to be better, or this means I am wrong. Ed asks, are YOU willing to consider yourself in this statement? and COULD it possibly be that this is your educated opinion, as opposed to empirically proven fact? Judith wrote, On Tuesday 31 July 2001 20:11, John Rigby wrote: Hi Judith, On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 08:48, you manipulated electrons to produce: Sridhar wrote: You mean it isn't intuitive for a Windos user? Then you are correct. For people who have been using *nix for a while this can be very intuitive. Whoa! Intuitive has nothing to do with what OS someone knows how to use. Intuitive means known or perceived through intuition. *** Aha! A born debater! :-) Most of my working life was spent trying to introduce Western Technology in Asia - at the USER level. The greatest problem in presenting alternative - not even better - solutions to tasks is the cultural problem. *My* way has to be better, or this means I am wrong. To readily understand this point is simple: consider Religion! :-) However, INDUCEMENT to change is the highest requirement for rapidly overcoming the inbuilt habit/prejudice/bias of the student. In the case of Windows vs Linux, to really appreciate the differences requires comparing apples with apples (not Apples) and here we need to separate the application intention of the user: 1. Geek. 2. Tool user. In (1) there is utterly no question. Linux wins. The Internet runs on the stuff - despite Big Bill's massive efforts to sell the MS Server solutions. It is simply so superior that any true geek would become aware of it in a week or less - as happens. In (2) Mandrake is almost there! It is a problem of residual intention confusion that is the main outstanding difficulty. Pavarotti in an interview once said that he admired the dedication of all those other Opera Singers who can practise so hard, hour after hour, day after day. When reminded of how much time he spent working on his music he said, but I just sing! We are getting there very quickly. It is astounding that it *IS* happening so quickly and efficiently. People tend to forget that the vast bulk of great work done on this System is done by individuals and small groups who somehow find the time and energy to get it all together and create a cohesion that we still have yet to see come out of Redmond. ( Mind you, there is a different intention inside Redmond.) Even more amazing is the fact that the people being called on to make the System User Friendly, are not by instinct of the same mind/culture/Religion! As I keep saying - this exercise is massively cross-cultural. At one extreme are the Civilemes and Sridhars who actually LIKE the complexity and challenges, but they were born to it. At the other extreme is YHC, your humble correspondent, who an hundred years ago thought automatic gearboxes on autos was a blasphemy, but who sure learned to appreciate them in stop-start traffic jams, which were invented at the time, to sell automatic gearboxes Now that I have a complex life out in the Cyberbog, the last thing I need to do is go catch a goose, yank out a tail feather and sharpen it and make some ink to create my daily bread. That ain't fun to me. Only the writing -as some of you have noticed - is, I looove the Biro. HOWEVER, to make this thing work is not that difficult if approached a little differently. It is only in the separation of the cultures and understanding of the requirements - or goals of the other, that it does simplify. Natural Mechanics. Drivers. The money is with the Drivers. We outnumber the mechanics by the same ratio of auto mechanics to drivers. The whole computer system is just a tool, nothing more. It is useful only to contact Grandma cheaply, SPAM each other and write the great novel of the century. We just want to use it to go from A to B. The requirement is simple: AUTOMATE
[newbie] Mixed Marriage - Making it work, together: CL vs GUI To Help A Newby
Hi Judith, On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 08:48, you manipulated electrons to produce: Sridhar wrote: You mean it isn't intuitive for a Windos user? Then you are correct. For people who have been using *nix for a while this can be very intuitive. Whoa! Intuitive has nothing to do with what OS someone knows how to use. Intuitive means known or perceived through intuition. *** Aha! A born debater! :-) Most of my working life was spent trying to introduce Western Technology in Asia - at the USER level. The greatest problem in presenting alternative - not even better - solutions to tasks is the cultural problem. *My* way has to be better, or this means I am wrong. To readily understand this point is simple: consider Religion! :-) However, INDUCEMENT to change is the highest requirement for rapidly overcoming the inbuilt habit/prejudice/bias of the student. In the case of Windows vs Linux, to really appreciate the differences requires comparing apples with apples (not Apples) and here we need to separate the application intention of the user: 1. Geek. 2. Tool user. In (1) there is utterly no question. Linux wins. The Internet runs on the stuff - despite Big Bill's massive efforts to sell the MS Server solutions. It is simply so superior that any true geek would become aware of it in a week or less - as happens. In (2) Mandrake is almost there! It is a problem of residual intention confusion that is the main outstanding difficulty. Pavarotti in an interview once said that he admired the dedication of all those other Opera Singers who can practise so hard, hour after hour, day after day. When reminded of how much time he spent working on his music he said, but I just sing! We are getting there very quickly. It is astounding that it *IS* happening so quickly and efficiently. People tend to forget that the vast bulk of great work done on this System is done by individuals and small groups who somehow find the time and energy to get it all together and create a cohesion that we still have yet to see come out of Redmond. ( Mind you, there is a different intention inside Redmond.) Even more amazing is the fact that the people being called on to make the System User Friendly, are not by instinct of the same mind/culture/Religion! As I keep saying - this exercise is massively cross-cultural. At one extreme are the Civilemes and Sridhars who actually LIKE the complexity and challenges, but they were born to it. At the other extreme is YHC, your humble correspondent, who an hundred years ago thought automatic gearboxes on autos was a blasphemy, but who sure learned to appreciate them in stop-start traffic jams, which were invented at the time, to sell automatic gearboxes Now that I have a complex life out in the Cyberbog, the last thing I need to do is go catch a goose, yank out a tail feather and sharpen it and make some ink to create my daily bread. That ain't fun to me. Only the writing -as some of you have noticed - is, I looove the Biro. HOWEVER, to make this thing work is not that difficult if approached a little differently. It is only in the separation of the cultures and understanding of the requirements - or goals of the other, that it does simplify. Natural Mechanics. Drivers. The money is with the Drivers. We outnumber the mechanics by the same ratio of auto mechanics to drivers. The whole computer system is just a tool, nothing more. It is useful only to contact Grandma cheaply, SPAM each other and write the great novel of the century. We just want to use it to go from A to B. The requirement is simple: AUTOMATE IT. Give us this day our daily GUI and deliver us from the Command Line. Four-wheel Drive and double-reduction 6-speed gearboxes are great - on an Army vehicle, they are useless to a normal user as the Urban equivalent. Dangerous in an accident, extremely expensive to maintain, uncomfortable and no longer impress anyone - they all have one too. We only need a system that works as far as possible on MINIMUM CHOICES. 3 Automatic gears are fine! We only need to do repetitive and simple things. Mandrake only has to focus on on one simple zone to really fill a giant vacuum: K.I.S. EVERYTHING on the Desktop. No Server option on install. No Multi-desktops - Gnome *or* KDE whichever is windowiest. An Email program - as close to O.E as possible. A REALLY good Wordprocessor - Doze-like interface (Star Office seems pretty close to workable now - except for font problems) THEN for later on, the AUTOMATIC updater/installer option - ON the Desktop! For MIGRANTS - ESCAPEES, REFUGEES : A DEFAULT install Trial Win4Lin. Mandrake is still a long way from an easy transition - transitions are NEVER easy, as whole habit patterns have to be burned out and replaced. Then there is the problem of expectation! Remember, that's how Bill became a Billionaire! Mandrake is about the level of W95 in
