Re: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux?
On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 16:22, Fajar Priyanto wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 http://www.forbes.com/enterprisetech/2004/08/31/cz_dl_0831msft.html F.U.D. -- stephen kuhn - proprietor __ illawarra computer services :: a kuhn media australia venture http://kma.0catch.com :: mobile 0410.728.389 Serving Sydney, The Illawarra, South Coast and Rural NSW __ * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents __ Mandrake GNU/Linux 10.0 OE/Kernel 2.6.3-7/ No Viruses here. People humiliating a salami! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux?
John Wilson wrote: On August 31, 2004 11:22 pm, Fajar Priyanto wrote: http://www.forbes.com/enterprisetech/2004/08/31/cz_dl_0831msft.html First off one needs to seriously question whether Newham was at all interested in using Linux or was simly using Linux as a way of bashing a pricing deal out of Microsoft. That said, the article is full of errors of fact. For example: Add in the cost of retraining users and IT staff, rewriting applications to run on Linux, and the cost of paying separately for programs like application servers, Web servers and directories (which come bundled with Windows). You also may need to pay consultants to stitch the pieces together, and you might need to buy insurance to protect you against lawsuits over intellectual property rights. (One outfit hawks such policies for $150,000 year.) Last time I checked, which was all of about a day or two ago, application servers, Web servers and directory servers are available as GPL'd software at little or no up front charge. Certianly even Forbes has heard about Apache. As for consultants I can't think of one municipality or medium to large company that doesn't pay for consultants to stitch these things together regardless of the OS they run on. They probably speak about that SCO claim to be theirs and also bill companies for using that software within their Linux environment. Also, last time I checked, most of the applications mentioned in the paragraph above are freely downloadable for every major distribution and most little guys. Later the IT type for the town goes on about that latest useless gimmick called a tablet PC. At this point those things are not even close to ready for prime time, need to be coddled to keep working because the hardware is so fragile and the software..well..the less said at the moment the better. I've field tested two of them and they're pure useless junk. Still, it's a market and a serious software developer takes it into account wether tablet's are junk or not, it's not their product but the software is. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux?
On Thursday 02 September 2004 01:40 am, John Wilson wrote: FUD is FUD..even when published in Forbes. FUD is the only thing that Forbes DOES publish. No serious technical person reads Forbes, or even a serious non-technical person for that matter, it is written by, published for, and read by only the most PHB of PHB's, and even they don't take it seriously. Forbes has been described as corporate pornography and is mostly read by middle managers. Even they don't take advice in Forbes seriously. That would be like reading a tabloid story about a woman having Elvis' alien baby and taking it seriously. It is entertainment value only. -- Bryan Phinney Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux?
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:57:02 -0400 Bryan Phinney disseminated the following: FUD is FUD..even when published in Forbes. FUD is the only thing that Forbes DOES publish. No serious technical person reads Forbes, or even a serious non-technical person for that matter, it is written by, published for, and read by only the most PHB of PHB's, and even they don't take it seriously. Forbes has been described as corporate pornography and is mostly read by middle managers. Even they don't take advice in Forbes seriously. That would be like reading a tabloid story about a woman having Elvis' alien baby and taking it seriously. It is entertainment value only. Just saw this (from Groklaw), and I thought of you: The creativity award goes to CBSMarketwatch for finding a way to report SCO's results as positive news, as Forbes did yesterday. Imagine if you only got your news from those two. Why, you'd probably go out and buy SCO stock or something. Link: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20040901145513600 There's no link that I can see to the Forbes analysis of SCO's 'success', if anyone can find it I'd like to see it. -- JoeHill RLU #282046 / www.freeyourmachine.org 19:55:44 up 29 days, 19:40, 5 users, load average: 0.21, 0.26, 0.22 +++ There are literally several levels of SCO being wrong. And even if we were to live in that alternate universe where SCO would be right, they'd still be wrong. -- Linus Torvalds Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux?
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:22:10 +0700, Fajar Priyanto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 http://www.forbes.com/enterprisetech/2004/08/31/cz_dl_0831msft.html - -- Fajar Priyanto | Reg'd Linux User #327841 | http://linux.arinet.org 10:52:59 up 3:08, Mandrake Linux release 9.2 (FiveStar) for i586 public key: https://www.arinet.org/fajar-pub.key -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBNWqUkp5CsIXuxqURAp18AJoCs5AtDPhDCc8mkleBFF1bTCXa8wCfVybQ SwZaOh/jlIQDo45bNl5BZdo= =x7Zf -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com FUD and OT at that. They mention PAYING for webservers and applications?!?!? And they ONLY mention RedHat, the study they cite could have only included RH anyway with the costs they came up with. Look up Dean Markley guitars and ask them about cost of ownership. That article was written by a Microsoft shill, not a journalist. Yeah, Yeah, I responded to something OT, and went on about it. So sue me. -- This is me with the words on the tip of my tongue and my eye through the scope down the barrel of a gun, remind me not to ever act this way again - Taking Back Sunday -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBBqeVfHXjcMfoResRAkEAAKCJYsCJa72nJMEk8tS5IC75SOyIbgCfaH5N gXAle9QDujbcMcHVOEiS6UY= =oaCY -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux?
To me it looks like it's only about British ppl. They are known for their stubborness when it comes to switching with everything. I'm going to kiss the pope's butt when the British choose to dump their Pound for the Euro. Then there is this biased info talking about the limitations of Linux but i read (even i being a person not knowing everything about Linux in general) things that made MR. Steel pretty unwell informed. Like Linux would not run on tablet PC's, i dunno if this is really true, but i know you can still run a pretty good Linux kernel from a Floppy disc, so it for sure would be able to run on a PDA. Then there is this kind of talk i read everywhere: How could free Linux cost more than Windows? First of all, Red Hat (nasdaq: RHAT - news - people ), the leading Linux distributor, now charges $799 to $2,499 for each server running Linux. That's not for the software, mind you, but for maintenance. Semantics aside, you're paying for Linux. Add in the cost of retraining users and IT staff, rewriting applications to run on Linux, and the cost of paying separately for programs like application servers, Web servers and directories (which come bundled with Windows). You also may need to pay consultants to stitch the pieces together, and you might need to buy insurance to protect you against lawsuits over intellectual property rights. (One outfit hawks such policies for $150,000 year.) They do not mention wether the maintanance costs are on monthly or yearly basis, if one hires a good educated IT staff and invest in doing the training (once, not annual) it will not cost any more than what servers running Microsoft's software costs. I know that server maintainance involves mostly no more than only a bit of software patching but generally server maintanance is about keeping hardware in shape or upgrade whenever performance induces and about software maintanance, i also know most company IT staff (server administrators) can do a pretty well job on maintaining the software themselves. Besides most of the software written for Linux is not being made on a personal basis for one company, but mostly general software is available which is updated on any regular basis as other software is being updated for Windows. Though Microsoft's claim may count for some companies that only do outsourcing investment, but for the general business-market: it's just a bunch of crap IMHO. Fajar Priyanto wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 http://www.forbes.com/enterprisetech/2004/08/31/cz_dl_0831msft.html - -- Fajar Priyanto | Reg'd Linux User #327841 | http://linux.arinet.org 10:52:59 up 3:08, Mandrake Linux release 9.2 (FiveStar) for i586 public key: https://www.arinet.org/fajar-pub.key -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBNWqUkp5CsIXuxqURAp18AJoCs5AtDPhDCc8mkleBFF1bTCXa8wCfVybQ SwZaOh/jlIQDo45bNl5BZdo= =x7Zf -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux?
On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 09:22, Fajar Priyanto wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 http://www.forbes.com/enterprisetech/2004/08/31/cz_dl_0831msft.html - -- 2 quotes from the above: For years customers griped that Microsoft was gouging them. Now, thanks to IBM, Novell, and Red Hat, customers are learning what it is that Microsoft charges them for--upgrades, patches, research and development, indemnification, integration of disparate programs. Some, like the folks in Newham, are discovering that Microsoft isn't ripping them off at all. and And, yes, as Newham proves, Linux is forcing Microsoft to slash prices and to work harder to keep customers. If MS isn't ripping them off, how can they 'slash prices'? -- pm I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education. Wilson Mizner Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
RE: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Vincent Voois Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux? To me it looks like it's only about British ppl. They are known for their stubborness when it comes to switching with everything. I'm going to kiss the pope's butt when the British choose to dump their Pound for the Euro. Your first line is bit unfair, it is the government not the people who make these policies. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Business Computer Projects - Disclaimer -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- This message, and any associated attachment is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify either the sender or [EMAIL PROTECTED] immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not necessarily the views of Business Computer Projects Ltd., unless specifically stated. Whilst every effort has been made to ensure that emails and their attachments are virus free, it is the responsibility of the recipient(s) to verify the integrity of such emails. Business Computer Projects Ltd BCP House 151 Charles Street Stockport Cheshire SK1 3JY Tel: +44 (0)161 355-3000 Fax: +44 (0)161 355-3001 Web: http://www.bcpsoftware.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux?
On Tuesday 31 August 2004 11:22 pm, Fajar Priyanto wrote: http://www.forbes.com/enterprisetech/2004/08/31/cz_dl_0831msft.html M$ wrote that peice Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux?
Tony S. Sykes wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Vincent Voois Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux? To me it looks like it's only about British ppl. They are known for their stubborness when it comes to switching with everything. I'm going to kiss the pope's butt when the British choose to dump their Pound for the Euro. Your first line is bit unfair, it is the government not the people who make these policies. You're correct, it is only the government i was aiming at, apologies to all the British civilians. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] M$ has beaten Linux?
On August 31, 2004 11:22 pm, Fajar Priyanto wrote: http://www.forbes.com/enterprisetech/2004/08/31/cz_dl_0831msft.html First off one needs to seriously question whether Newham was at all interested in using Linux or was simly using Linux as a way of bashing a pricing deal out of Microsoft. That said, the article is full of errors of fact. For example: Add in the cost of retraining users and IT staff, rewriting applications to run on Linux, and the cost of paying separately for programs like application servers, Web servers and directories (which come bundled with Windows). You also may need to pay consultants to stitch the pieces together, and you might need to buy insurance to protect you against lawsuits over intellectual property rights. (One outfit hawks such policies for $150,000 year.) Last time I checked, which was all of about a day or two ago, application servers, Web servers and directory servers are available as GPL'd software at little or no up front charge. Certianly even Forbes has heard about Apache. As for consultants I can't think of one municipality or medium to large company that doesn't pay for consultants to stitch these things together regardless of the OS they run on. Also, last time I checked, most of the applications mentioned in the paragraph above are freely downloadable for every major distribution and most little guys. Later the IT type for the town goes on about that latest useless gimmick called a tablet PC. At this point those things are not even close to ready for prime time, need to be coddled to keep working because the hardware is so fragile and the software..well..the less said at the moment the better. I've field tested two of them and they're pure useless junk. Towards the end of the article a well known microsoft shill named Rob Enderle is quoted. This man has a history of not letting the facts get in teh way of his opionion or his learned comments. So much so that he's even managed to offend our lady of Groklaw, which is probably the dumbest thing he could have managed to do. Oh yes, and IP insurance. To date the attempts by SCO to sue end users has ended up going nowhere fast and it still looks as though they'll be soundly beaten in the end by IBM if there's still an SCO to beat up on. Finally, so what if Microsoft has beaten IBM, Novell and others in the past? MS was a different company back then and so were IBM and the others. I'd suggest that MS had less to defend back then and more to gain by buldgeoning everyone, customers included, in sight. And Linux itself is a different beast in that it's not Red Hat, MDK, Novell or IBM but something bigger than that. And that's the other problem with beating Linux. It's a moving target and MS doesn't quite know what to do with that. Microsoft has a problem now that it didn't have then. It's fighting a multi front war in OS, development and application space. In that sense they're similar to IBM when they went after them. Even more so when you consider that while Microsoft doesn't make much hardware they do attempt to control it. Like anyone in that position they can't be everywhere at once and they can't do everything at once well. The fate of Longhorn should make that clear. Linux and Open Source and even the closed source that is clustering around Linux have a serious advantage in that they can concentrate of OS or application or development. And 'Nix's inherent modularity means that fitting the parts together isn't a huge insurmountable problem or that it needs to be buried in an OS a la Windows. Add to this the fact that in spite of their own PR Microsoft hasn't really innovated in anything. Oh they've copied, stolen and sometimes improved but to say they've ever really innovated is bunk. The culture around Microsoft has become bureaucratic, as it must be, slow and fat. It's a monolith and everything must fit into whatever master plan they have at the moment. Even if they don't really seem to know what that is. The culture around Linux and Open Source is general is close to anarchy. Contrary to the popular computing press this is a definite advantage. People can and do concentrate on what interests them or what problems they can solve. Innovation tends to be small but cumulative. The explosion in quality and quantity of applications in the last 24 months is nothing short of phenominal even more so when one considers how much had to be reverse engineered. Contrary to Forbes there is precious little hardware that Linux can't make use of now with ease. So there's no block there. FUD is FUD..even when published in Forbes. ttfn John -- *** Composed on a 100% Microsoft Free Computer Guaranteed Virus Free Mandrake Linux 10.0 OE Registered Linux User 362316 ***
