Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? NOW what for?
No.. Dreamweaver Can work w/ wine, however it does not work as quickly, nor is it as functional as on windows. (I personally coulnd't get it to install.) I have managed to get a copy of flash5 installed on my windows partition working with wine(using real win95 dlls), its not really usable as wine gets into a knot with the daft palette/tool thingies and spends 90% of its time redrawing them. -- Rick Kitty5 WebDesign - http://Kitty5.com POV-Ray News Resources - http://Povray.co.uk TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - FAX : +44 (01270) 251105 - ICQ : 15776037 PGP Public Key http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x231E1CEA Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? NOW what for?
Shane, You are being very, very rude and are thus, probably very, very young. I will however answer you. The reason the *quiet moneymakers* use Frontpage and the early 98 version at that, is because THE WORLD uses I. E. and I.E. compatibility. Nobody in their right mind wouldn't design expressly for I.E. It is 90%+ of the users. ( Professional real world marketers tend to look to these sort of things) No package known to me or that group, can do the cheap and quick product - that the world demands - the way it can, and then allow a small client to edit simply, on his own, using the freebie FP Express. Finally, the whole point *is* that I have had completely untrained people in the 100's install/upgrade their own Windows 98 on a simply prepared box over the years. ( I founded and ran a very large computer users group for many years). FACT: I and obviously, *very few others* have ever successfully been able to comfortably install Linux as is being proved on this list every day, by the great range of problems. I am returning to Mandrake's excellent community support once again, to see if it has evolved into something I personally can use and recommend to my friends. It appears that 8.1 was a big improvement over 8.0 and 8.2 beta is claimed to be even better. The vast majority of responses have been sincere attempts to enlighten me toward the chances of finding M8+ useful in a real business environment. Unfortunately, there are still very few users seriously using it except for fun and their own amusement/challenges. Serious use of it requires access to working/workable business programs at least equal to those in the vast majority. So far there seems to be none. Which leaves the Win4lin option. John The only people to really fear are those who know that they are right - especially those who are not Kilneth - Original Message - From: shane [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? bullshit, really, seriously, FP is good only for creating MS documents for MSbrowsers, and anyone who thinks that is all you need will have a rude awakening when a combination of linux/mac/bsd users and AOL using gecko as their engine puts IE back under 40% on the browser share. front page is to the webpages what oil spills are to the environment, a big stinking mess that someone will have to clean or will just keep on destroying. i was taking you seriously until now. lets get one thing straight. anyone who can install any other OS can install linux. yes this leaves some people out, but those people couldn't install windows either. shall we make them all use type writers? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? NOW what for?
You know, I didn't want to say anything about this, however I should just for relevence. I currently do both PHP and ASP programming for various customers, as well as myself. I use Frontpage for quite a few things. Yes it does produce SOME bad code, however 2002 does produce acceptable code for the basic layout. I do alot of rough work, and table planning and outlining in frontpage, just because I find it handles it better then Dreamweaver. Now, I'll admit that I don't polish these pages w/ Frontpage, that would be silly as it honestly doesn't do a great job. But if I didn't want to polish these pages they would be more then acceptable in either Mozzilla, or IE. I personally found FP the nicest on code I put in manually. Too often I've opened up a page in Dreamweaver and have it start to reformat the HTML code on me. Not only that, but I really like the window switching that was enabled in 2002 for multiple windows open. When I'm doing mass edits (5+ files) I don't like having all 5 windows open w/ Dreamweaver... it becomes very clutered. The Child Window system of Fronpage makes life alot easier. As for the world running on unix, linux, freebsd, and other direvitives (sp?) that's very true. It's also true that quite a few LARGE companies who license a lot of microsoft products have a lot of intranet servers running IIS just because it's easy for them to set up their windows file share server with IIS for the various groups that want to have webpages. Ohh... one last thing. For the person who said that really web designers hand code HTML. That's fine. You code your complex table structure manually. I personally will do it in a WYSIWYG editor myself... for me it takes way less time. Nelson On Wed, 2002-03-13 at 10:39, sda wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 10:28:50PM +1000, john rigby wrote: Shane, You are being very, very rude and are thus, probably very, very young. I will however answer you. The reason the *quiet moneymakers* use Frontpage and the early 98 version at that, is because THE WORLD uses I. E. and I.E. compatibility. You really are incorrect SIR. Being that Im in publishing and that includes divisons that do *complete* Web design as well as SFX for filmwork and tradional publishing I'm qualified enough to give a rebuttal. I've been in this business for 15 years. Nobody and I mean nobody, uses FrontPage in the professional world. It would be like people doing professsional print design using M$ Pubisher as opposed to Quark, Framemaker, InDesign and PageMaker. The reason? The code generated by FrontPage is atrocious and only works `sometimes' with IE, and ASP, the whole WORLD doensn't use ASP or MIIS. Most professional web design is done by designers who do the nice look using DreamWeaver and/or GoLive. They both produce reasonably clean html. Some designers actually use something like HomePage, or BBEdit as they prefer to tweak raw code. Then the look is handed over to the second tier who do the backend stuff, the programmers, who tie it all into PHP,ASP for serverside dbases using Perl, Python and XSLT, in additon to other fine languages. Very few of these operations run on M$ software. So FrontPage is useless, and additonal time is spent fixing up the atrocious results, which isn't preferable in a production environment. The hobbyists - like FrontPage as it's easy to produce relatively nice looking pages in their default browser. But as soon as db enter the eqation, and most corporate websites use them, FrontPage use is out of the question. Nobody in their right mind wouldn't design expressly for I.E. It is 90%+ of the users. ( Professional real world marketers tend to look to these sort of things) Again you really don't know whereof you speak. The software that runs the internet runs on Linux, BSD or Unix hardware/software - not M$. That's what counts. -- -^- -^- ? ?Steve ^ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' ` Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[OT] HTML editors. [Was: Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? NOW what for?]
On Wednesday 13 March 2002 20:25, Nelson Bartley wrote: [snippets] I currently do both PHP and ASP programming for various customers, as well as myself. I use Frontpage for quite a few things. Yes it does produce SOME bad code, however 2002 does produce acceptable code for the basic layout. I do alot of rough work, and table planning and outlining in frontpage, just because I find it handles it better then Dreamweaver. Now, I'll admit that I don't polish these pages w/ Frontpage, that would be silly as it honestly doesn't do a great job. But if I didn't want to polish these pages they would be more then acceptable in either Mozzilla, or IE. To be fair, a lot of the bloated, non-standard pages that litter the web are produced with Frontpage Express, rather than the full Frontpage, which I am told allows you to specify the HTML version you want. And the really sucky pages are often produced, not with HTML editors, but with MS Word. But I try not to blame the authors, many of whom are new to the web. When I started, I too used Save as HTML and didn't notice anything was wrong until I started getting emails about my unreadable pages. I was also pointed to a program called demoronizer which stripped MS smartquotes (an oxymoron). I didn't know what to do with it, so I mailed back and got the reply, Just untar it and run it on the file, no arguments needed, or something like that. Like Huh? That was my introduction to UNIX, which got me into Linux. Ohh... one last thing. For the person who said that really web designers hand code HTML. That's fine. You code your complex table structure manually. I personally will do it in a WYSIWYG editor myself... for me it takes way less time. I asked a friend of mine who teaches web design what tools he had his students use. His answer was pencil and paper. Ironically, WYSIWYG tools work fine in the hands of people who learnt their HTML the hard way. Sorry if this is way off topic, but I did mark it as such! BTW, I'm happy to see off-topic mails on this list (I'd be a hypocrite if I wasn't) but I'd appreciate it if people could put OT or something in the header. Then I can read those first ;-) And please change the subject header when the subject gets too far from the original post. Sometimes I miss really entertaining polemics because they still have a subject like Re: SB AWE64 drivers. Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? NOW what for?
No.. Dreamweaver Can work w/ wine, however it does not work as quickly, nor is it as functional as on windows. (I personally coulnd't get it to install.) NB On Wed, 2002-03-13 at 20:13, FemmeFatale wrote: snip sda wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 10:28:50PM +1000, john rigby wrote: Shane, . Most professional web design is done by designers who do the nice look using DreamWeaver and/or GoLive. snip As an aside, is it possible, as someone on this list wanted to give up M$ for Linux...but couldn't b/c dreamweaver won't work on Linux w/out problems. Is it possible instead to use Codeweavers Wine to help in that effort? Just curious wondering, not that I know wtf Dreamweaver is :) Femme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
