Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
Maybe you are using the wrong Distro. since that is what Mandrake is about. maybe you should look at Gentoo :) snip Sorry, I simply don't agree. If making it easier means sacrificing features, freedom, customization, then I don't want it to be any easier./snip On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 19:00, Bryan Phinney wrote: On Thursday 23 September 2004 16:25, Lanman wrote: Feel free to get as annoyed as you want, but I beg to differ on some of your points of view. Still, I respect the fact that you have a right to them, and I'm not saying that mine is better than yours but consider this,... Differences are what makes the world an interesting place. I find that many times, scripts are written from the personal point of view. That is, from the perspective of a person who has done several installs of a program, and has prepared the system in advance. Many things which would normally be included in a script file, are omitted on purpose - since the person writing the script didn't need it for their own install (assuming that their database or apache config had already been completed), or by accident simply due to the fact that the script writer felt that anyone using the script would have already done these preparations. I can think of a multitude of other reasons, all of which would point to the human-factor. We have nothing to disagree about here. Again, I was suggesting that the script be used as a guide. See their steps, figure out if something is missing and fill in the blanks. I always keep in mind that an RPM usually installs the necessary files but doesn't necessarily configure the environment. I have worked with a lot of packages so far that needed to be configured after I installed the RPM, I don't count on those to be one-stop installations. You can count me into the Others category here. Helping others is one of the way that my company contributes back to the Linux community. I make it the responsibility of every employee to contribute something, even though I'm the one paying their salaries while they're out helping on a volunteer basis. They select the person or persons or groups they will assist and we allot a salary incentive to those staff members who can track and vouch for that time. When I waltz in and ask for help, I'm not asking for a lecture or perspective on whether or not the help is billable or not. I've taken hours and days out of my time to help others on this list (past and present), and will continue to do so in the future. For me, it's not always a question of money. If you're curious, I'd be willing to send you a short list of some of the most recent times I've helped others. I don't really need one, and I am not questioning whether you have contributed or helped someone. I am questioning the tone of your second message that was basically, if I can't get this to work and no one helps me to get it working, then Gnu/Linux isn't insert FUD phrase here. First of all, whether ogo works or not is no reflection on Linux. Second, whether or not that particular package works for you is not a reflection of anything more than that that particular package is not working for you. I never fault anything else first before I fault myself. That said, I have often come out vigorously against people who have seemed to suggest that if they didn't get what they wanted, then somehow Linux was at fault and it was not worth bothering with. I still find the tone of such a suggestion infuriating. Fortunately for both of us, I wasn't saying I can't get something to work, can someone give me exact instructions to make it work in my environment, with my installed software, telling me exactly what to do, I was asking if anyone had managed to get it working in Mandrake and whether they could help or not. If you need a reminder of that, I'll be happy to re-post my original message. I remember the first message, and I will note that I did not GRRR until you posted your second one. Like I said in my previous post, I fail to see why anyone would bother to make and include the RPM's for something that can't be installed easily. If Linux is going to make a bigger dent in the world, it's going to have to fix this type of problem. FYI, I consider 4 days sufficient time. Well, you know your own levels of expertise better than do I. Usually, I get something working the first time and then calculate sufficient time in future against the baseline. For what it is worth, my first Linux installation/configuration took about 6 months before I got things working well enough that I felt comfortable dumping Windows entirely. YMMV. However, like any smart consumer, I am not about to buy a package or pay for support for something that I haven't seen, and I would hope that you wouldn't either. All I've seen are a few screen shots which don't tell me whether
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
I do agree with most of Bryan is saying... what I think is the problem, is that open source software is Hyped to work the same or better than commercial software. that is where the frustration comes from. On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 12:32, Bryan Phinney wrote: On Thursday 23 September 2004 10:58, Lanman wrote: Thanks Brian, but I've tried that script file about 10 times, I've used parts of the file at least 4 or 5 times, and it's only worked partially. I've also found 5 different sets of instructions written for Mandrake and Redhat (take your pick of version numbers), and each time had different results. Given that someone wrote it and it appears to work for them, you might consider it a starting point and go through it line by line to see what they are doing in the script and then try to apply it to your installation. I know that is a lengthy process, however, there probably is a quicker way and that is to hire someone who has done it before and have them do it. If you go the cheap route, you should be prepared to expend some time and effort on it. I don't mind trying to help out where I can but if I need to tell someone exactly what to do, step by step, I am probably going to be sending them an invoice after the fact. Others here might not feel the same way. If I were already using the package and you were asking for assistance with specific problems that I thought I could help with, I would try to help. If you waltz in and say, I can't get something to work, can someone give me exact instructions to make it work in my environment, with my installed software, telling me exactly what to do, my first impulse is to turn on the timer for my hourly bill rate. My earlier comments about ease of installation refer to the fact that the installation instructions on the pages your mentioned are not written in a logical order, and the scripts don't fully complete a workable installation. I am not running OGO, however, my understanding is that it is an enterprise level package that provides a large amount of functionality with many components and tying to a large variety of background archictectures. My expectation for such a package, especially one as new as OGO would be that it would require some effort to integrate it into any particular environment. If your needs are not so complex to warrant the use of such a package, there are other options available. If your needs are such that you do need such a complex package, you should be prepared to spend the time necessary to get it to work. Another option would be to buy a package, pay for support and get someone to do it for you. As an example, they don't check to see if PostGreSQl is installed, don't create the database or add the user to PostGreSQL or for that matter don't detect and finsh configuration of Apache. They mention that Postgresql can be used as well as other types of SQL databases. So, they don't assume postgresql on the off chance that you want to use something else. The small part of installation instructions that I read indicate that you must install postgresql and create the database separately, or provide some other database. Detecting which version of Apache, 2 or 1.3 and then properly configuring it including creating virtual directory entries, setting access and getting past whatever security (within Apache) you have or would desire would on the surface, appear to be complex too. Add in whether you are going to do purely SSL access or allow open http access. Throw in the diverse number of environments, flavors of Linux, security, etc. and I can totally understand why a script that someone wrote for themselves might not be totally working for you out of the box. That may sound like a lot, but I've seen other install scripts work for effectively, such as the ones for webmin, macromedia flash, and adobe's acrobat reader. Even the installers for ATI and NVidia drivers are a bit more friendly than this one. Funny you mention that, since the most recent release of Nvidia drivers installation script doesn't work with Mandrake. And install scripts for Microsoft Exchange might be easier than ogo as well. That is very much totally beside the point. You are not working with those packages or those developers, you are working with ogo. I totally understand someone getting frustrated when something doesn't work. I also understand someone REQUESTING help. What I do not accept is the tone that one takes when they EXPECT something to work or that if it doesn't work for them, then there is something wrong with Linux or Open Source. Linux requires more effort than something that you buy from someone. That is the nature of it. Comparing a free product that was given to you with a product that earned the authors millions of dollars in revenue is simply not a material comparison. Give me money
