Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-28 Thread Isaac Schlueter
On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 10:53, Dennis Kane dkan...@gmail.com wrote:
 Let's all remember what open source is really all about.  A program is
 called closed source if it is distributed in binary format only.  The open
 source movement makes the demand that one cannot distribute a binary program
 using, for example, GPL'ed code without also making the source code
 available.

 But a server side process has nothing to do with any of this!

The GPL and BSD/MIT licenses are very different.  What you describe is copyleft.

There's also the LGPL, which *may* be linked against or depended upon
by non-GPL programs, but may *not* be extended or used to create
non-GPL derivative works.

And there's AGPL, which states that you may not use the software in
network programs unless all those who use the software over a network
*also* have access to the source.  Ie, it's like GPL, with a broader
definition of distribution.

The MIT and BSD licenses are much more liberal, and as far as I've
ever seen, they're pretty much equivalent.  They are not copyleft, and
not viral.  GPL is much less popular in the node community than MIT
and BSD.  The Apache license is similar in intent to MIT and BSD, but
with additional language regarding copyrights an patents.

All I'm saying is: saying the point of open source is like saying
the goal of american politics.  There are a lot of different
conflicting goals, and groups, and ideologies.  Lumping it all into a
single bucket loses a lot of details.  In fact, many in the Free
Software movement would object to even being associated with the term
Open Source at all, since to them, it's more about freedom to modify
and extend than having access to code, which is viewed as merely a
means to an end.


 I've already been told more than once to rethink/change my approach.
  Seriously?  I mean, let's get serious here.  The only time I get snarky is
 when people get pushy with their demands to just hand out something that has
 resulted from years of torment.  This just is not any old program.  It just
 isn't.  Period.

There's a pattern you're matching here, which I'm sure many of us have
seen many times in software communities.

I have a really awesome killer idea.  This is going to change
everything!  No, you can't see it.  But it's going to be amazing.
I've put *so much* time and effort into it.  I've been slaving away
for years.  If you come join me (which you will have to be very
motivated, lucky, and exceptional for me to allow you to do), then
untold riches will be yours to share!

The pattern is:

1. Vague promises of paradigm shifting software of epic proportions.
(The Noble Ambition)
2. Self-congratulatory claims of effort and sacrifice that went into
its production.  (The Quest)
3. A promise to share with a special few who are up to the challenge.
4. An resistance to sharing *any* relevant details.  (When pressed,
reacting with indignant objections regarding principles and
propriety.)

I've taken to think of this as the Genius Martyr syndrome.  It
doesn't always present with crippling insanity, but that is a common
pathology.  It isn't always a technical idea, either; sometimes it's a
new way to handle governance in the group, or a revolutionary business
plan (where they're refusing to take any investment), etc.

It may be that there may come a time when some GM exhibits this
pattern in a technical community, and does in fact have some awesome
thing.  Perhaps a few GMs have ideas which are actually worth more
than the paper they refuse to print them on.

If that time comes, if that idea shows up, and it's presented this
way, I'll probably miss out on it.  Why?  Because in my years in
software communities, 100% of the time that this pattern has presented
(and it is sadly not rare at all), the result has been the same.

A few people react with interest, which then of course leads to more
hinting.  Finally people start pushing for proof, at which time the GM
lashes out defensively, claiming that the open source community is a
bunch of greedy hippies who want something for nothing, or questioning
the commitment or competence of those in the community to actually
contribute to the Noble Ambition.

In most cases, a flame war erupts and then the GM goes away
eventually, or sticks around making trouble until they're eventually
banned (or the community just gots to crap, which is sadly very
common.)  In a few cases, someone in the group will bait the GM by
feigning interest, attempting to draw out the crazy for their
entertainment.

I'm sure that many of us have *been* a GM at one point or another in
our lives.  I know I have.  It was embarrassing.  I survived.


As a person heavily invested in the Node.js community, I really don't
want to see it devolve into pointless bickering and personal insults.
We just can't have that.  It's not good for anyone.  It doesn't lead
to creativity or good will, and it tends to keep out the most
productive potential members.

So, Dennis, if you are serious, and 

[nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-28 Thread Dennis Kane
Jesus, dude, thanks for the psychoanalysis.  Anyone reading this
thread can see what turned into a slow moving train wreck.  I posted
my thing and some people said: Cool!  In the first post, I said
something about eventually doing an open source thing.  Someone said:
I want the source!  I said, Haha you probably don't really want
it.  People started getting serious about the holy node ecosystem and
chastising me for my tone.  I started getting bitchy cause I found
myself having to defend myself about my politics (or rather my lack of
caring) rather than having fun with the issues that I really enjoy.

Haha whatevs...

Anyway Isaac, tl;dr.

Yes I'm trying to do something big.  Big things are the only ones that
interest me.  I'm trying to change the world, sorry.  I have
psychological issues, so what?  But I can program, dammit!  Anyone
that wants to learn and help out is welcome.  You have my site and my
email is on there.

I'm assuming that no one here is interested in NatLang issues or how
to implement them in Javascript?!


On Apr 28, 9:31 am, Isaac Schlueter i...@izs.me wrote:
 On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 10:53, Dennis Kane dkan...@gmail.com wrote:
  Let's all remember what open source is really all about.  A program is
  called closed source if it is distributed in binary format only.  The open
  source movement makes the demand that one cannot distribute a binary program
  using, for example, GPL'ed code without also making the source code
  available.

  But a server side process has nothing to do with any of this!

 The GPL and BSD/MIT licenses are very different.  What you describe is 
 copyleft.

 There's also the LGPL, which *may* be linked against or depended upon
 by non-GPL programs, but may *not* be extended or used to create
 non-GPL derivative works.

 And there's AGPL, which states that you may not use the software in
 network programs unless all those who use the software over a network
 *also* have access to the source.  Ie, it's like GPL, with a broader
 definition of distribution.

 The MIT and BSD licenses are much more liberal, and as far as I've
 ever seen, they're pretty much equivalent.  They are not copyleft, and
 not viral.  GPL is much less popular in the node community than MIT
 and BSD.  The Apache license is similar in intent to MIT and BSD, but
 with additional language regarding copyrights an patents.

 All I'm saying is: saying the point of open source is like saying
 the goal of american politics.  There are a lot of different
 conflicting goals, and groups, and ideologies.  Lumping it all into a
 single bucket loses a lot of details.  In fact, many in the Free
 Software movement would object to even being associated with the term
 Open Source at all, since to them, it's more about freedom to modify
 and extend than having access to code, which is viewed as merely a
 means to an end.

  I've already been told more than once to rethink/change my approach.
   Seriously?  I mean, let's get serious here.  The only time I get snarky is
  when people get pushy with their demands to just hand out something that has
  resulted from years of torment.  This just is not any old program.  It just
  isn't.  Period.

 There's a pattern you're matching here, which I'm sure many of us have
 seen many times in software communities.

 I have a really awesome killer idea.  This is going to change
 everything!  No, you can't see it.  But it's going to be amazing.
 I've put *so much* time and effort into it.  I've been slaving away
 for years.  If you come join me (which you will have to be very
 motivated, lucky, and exceptional for me to allow you to do), then
 untold riches will be yours to share!

 The pattern is:

 1. Vague promises of paradigm shifting software of epic proportions.
 (The Noble Ambition)
 2. Self-congratulatory claims of effort and sacrifice that went into
 its production.  (The Quest)
 3. A promise to share with a special few who are up to the challenge.
 4. An resistance to sharing *any* relevant details.  (When pressed,
 reacting with indignant objections regarding principles and
 propriety.)

 I've taken to think of this as the Genius Martyr syndrome.  It
 doesn't always present with crippling insanity, but that is a common
 pathology.  It isn't always a technical idea, either; sometimes it's a
 new way to handle governance in the group, or a revolutionary business
 plan (where they're refusing to take any investment), etc.

 It may be that there may come a time when some GM exhibits this
 pattern in a technical community, and does in fact have some awesome
 thing.  Perhaps a few GMs have ideas which are actually worth more
 than the paper they refuse to print them on.

 If that time comes, if that idea shows up, and it's presented this
 way, I'll probably miss out on it.  Why?  Because in my years in
 software communities, 100% of the time that this pattern has presented
 (and it is sadly not rare at all), the result has been the same.

 A few people react with 

RE: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-27 Thread Glenn Block
Dennis

As Isaac said, the fact that you want to build something that is closed
source is not a problem.

I think you could do more however in being cognizant and sensitive to the
values of this group. If you did you would probably find people more
receptive to your ideas.

You may not want to release your code under OSS, thay is fine. But there
are a lot of people here that really value and are passionate about OSS,
and that invest a lot of effort to actually grow the node ecosystem through
OSS. Really it is about helping each other be successful imo.

You may not value it in the same way, but you can still respect that others
do.






Sent from my Windows Phone
--
From: Dennis Kane
Sent: 4/26/2012 10:53 AM
To: nodejs@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 7:07:52 PM UTC-7, Isaac Schlueter wrote:


 The MIT license in node (as well as the MIT and BSD licenses in the
 vast majority of open source node programs) explicitly allows use for
 closed-source commercial applications.  If Dennis wants to keep his
 source closed, then that's his prerogative.  In fact, he can take all
 the modules we create, and use them in his closed-source proprietary
 thing, so long as he abides by the extremely liberal licenses that
 most of them use.  If you think he's wrong about the value of open
 source, or its overblownness, refute it with data.  (Or don't, and
 just go back to cranking out awesome open source software.)


Let's all remember what open source is really all about.  A program is
called closed source if it is distributed in binary format only.  The open
source movement makes the demand that one cannot distribute a binary
program using, for example, GPL'ed code without also making the source code
available.

But a server side process has nothing to do with any of this!  I am not
distributing the program... I am interested in running a service like
Google (which will hopefully eventually overtake them... but don't tell
anyone I said that).

Is anyone seriously demanding Google to freely distribute all of their
painstakingly developed search algorithms?  Not likely!

The basic fact is that this thing is the result of years and years of
absolute psychological warfare between me and my computers.  And given the
fact that robust NatLang Processing (weak AI) is something of a holy grail
for tech enthusiasts, the stakes in all of this are quite big.

I am not saying that releasing the code for this won't ever happen.  But I
am saying that releasing code is a very major decision that should never be
taken lightly.  All I do know is that now is not the time.

But I will talk about it.  I won't want to give away too many of the
technicals in an open forum, but I will give some of them away to people
who I can trust.  And in order to me to be able to trust someone fully, I
have to feel that they actually have an interest in the problems
surrounding NLP.

The Net is absolutely littered with freely available NLP projects, code and
all .  They are just not interesting.  But you know what is interesting?  A
site with a lone input box on a white background with a snazzy, colorful
logo above it (sound familiar?) that just works as advertised.  I want to
get something like that on the site pretty soon.

Now that I'm pretty well done with the hair-pulling aspects of my coding, I
can start having fun with putting variety into the thing (giving it the
wow factor).  Different kinds of words, statements, sense checking, etc.
 This kind of stuff should not be very difficult for any competent
programmer.

That's what I really want to start getting on the same wavelength with
people around here.  Stop thinking that this thing has to be some kind of
end-all-be-all killer app from the outset.  I mean, there are so many
things to be done.  I want to be able to translate natural ways of
referring to time points (last week, the day after tomorrow, etc) into
their precise Unix timestamps.  Not very difficult work, but it's something
that really should start getting worked on.

I really feel that this thing could give quite a few of you out there a
comfortable living.  This could open up totally new vistas of the tech
sector.  This has the potential of going places pretty quickly, and the
earlier that people get in on it, the greater the potential for reward.


Dennis, since you came here ostensibly trying to raise interest among
 other developers (and have been mostly successful, reading through the
 thread), I would suggest re-thinking your approach somewhat.  I'm not
 talking about what's right or wrong, merely what's effective.  Many
 people come to a project like Node.js because they feel strongly about
 open source software.  If your goal is to recruit them, you should
 think about the effects that your words have.  If you want to recruit
 developers who *aren't* passionate about open source software, then
 you're in the wrong place

Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-26 Thread shawn wilson
Per parsing language, you might want to look at what python's nltk and
Java's gate (less familiar with the later) have done for inspiration.
On Apr 25, 2012 10:07 PM, Isaac Schlueter i...@izs.me wrote:

 Please do not bicker over politics here.  This is not the place, and
 it never ever ends well.

 Please do not call each other idiots or make other personal remarks.
 If you want to say that a piece of *code* is terrible, or that a
 software approach is misguided, or that a statement is factually
 untrue, then that's perfectly fine (as long as it actually is!) but
 the Node.js user list must remain respectful.  (Challenging someone
 for benchmark numbers when they've made performance assertions is also
 not only accepted, but encouraged.)

 But a personal insult is not allowed, even if it's warranted.  If
 someone's *actually* causing problems, let me or one of the other
 admins know, and they'll get a warning, and if that doesn't work,
 they'll get banned.  (Even if the person is an admin.  You can
 complain about me to the other core devs on this list, and they'll set
 me straight.)  Calling someone a troll is insulting if they are not,
 and it is entertaining if they are.

 Don't complain in public about another user.  Just talk to an admin in
 private.  (Or email them directly off-list, if you feel comfortable
 doing so.)


 More on topic,

 The MIT license in node (as well as the MIT and BSD licenses in the
 vast majority of open source node programs) explicitly allows use for
 closed-source commercial applications.  If Dennis wants to keep his
 source closed, then that's his prerogative.  In fact, he can take all
 the modules we create, and use them in his closed-source proprietary
 thing, so long as he abides by the extremely liberal licenses that
 most of them use.  If you think he's wrong about the value of open
 source, or its overblownness, refute it with data.  (Or don't, and
 just go back to cranking out awesome open source software.)


 Dennis, since you came here ostensibly trying to raise interest among
 other developers (and have been mostly successful, reading through the
 thread), I would suggest re-thinking your approach somewhat.  I'm not
 talking about what's right or wrong, merely what's effective.  Many
 people come to a project like Node.js because they feel strongly about
 open source software.  If your goal is to recruit them, you should
 think about the effects that your words have.  If you want to recruit
 developers who *aren't* passionate about open source software, then
 you're in the wrong place.


 On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 18:20, Dennis Kane dkan...@gmail.com wrote:
  You don't come off as an asshole -- and besides, we have no problem with
  assholes: we're developers. Saying the things you're saying, to the
 audience
  you're saying them to -- well, it's that you come off as an idiot. The
 good
  news is this is a lot easier to fix.
 
 
  I'm an idiot because of my political views, and not my programming
 ability,
  I assume.  The only thing I'm worried about is the programming.  If
 you've
  got some criticism about that, I'm all ears.
 
 
  Oh, you're looking for help? Here's a suggestion: you could open up the
  code and see what people do.
 
  No.  Now chill out about the open source thing.  It's boring.  Redundant.
  Etc.
 
 
  Far be it from us to tell you what to do with your code, but you're the
  one asking for help, and this is naturally the first bit of feedback
 you're
  going to get. Why would any of us invest much more of our precious time
  helping you improve your proprietary product? The world doesn't work
 that
  way -- at least, not anymore.
 
  Dude, I'm looking to get a business off the ground.  People work with
 each
  other and try to make money off of their labors.  It has happened once or
  twice before.  You say the word proprietary as if its one of the seven
  deadly ones.
 
 
  So yes, back to the thing itself: node.js (this is the node.js list,
 after
  all). You've expressed clearly that you have no interest in making your
 work
  part of node's ecosystem. So at this point you're just noise, no
 different
  than a recruiter. You just said as much yourself: I'm here because I
 can't
  do this thing by myself. At least recruiters, even the worst of them,
 have
  a payed position to offer and the good sense not to directly insult the
  target audience :P
 
  Sorry.  I don't have any personal feelings about node's ecosystem.  It's
  just a tool that I take for granted.  I set up the site with express, and
  now I don't think about it.  It just works.  I have a server hooked into
 the
  main parser to shuttle stuff between it and express.  Sometimes I need to
  make use of the filesystem.  Other that that, I'm pretty much using
 straight
  javascript. It's google's v8 work that's doing most of the heavy lifting
 for
  me.  Besides, I didn't know that I had to have feelings for the tools
 that I
  use in order to be accepted in the development 

Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-26 Thread Dennis Kane
On Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:35:48 AM UTC-7, shawn wilson wrote:

 Per parsing language, you might want to look at what python's nltk and 
 Java's gate (less familiar with the later) have done for inspiration

Yeah, I saw the python nltk yesterday just to see what was currently out 
there.  Despite the fact that I absolutely abhor the indentation 
enforcement of python (neither here nor there), that whole project is just 
more of the same everything and the kitchen sink mentality.  There is so 
much in the way of graphical representation that has nothing to do with a 
program that just gets things right.  That 's all I care about.  As long as 
the parsing works very well (the logic of 'and', 'or', 'if', 'then', 
'because', etc), then everything else will start falling into place.  Just 
think of this as you would any c compiler or script interpreter.  The 
compiler must be able to get the intended logic right.  As long as that is 
the case, the user/programmer can do whatever the frick he or she wants as 
far as creating meaningful content.  This thing is doing pretty damn good 
with the logic on some highly convoluted statements and sequences thereof. 
 Forward thinking businesses will have to take note of this fact... they 
have no choice.  Then we can all start getting together to determine how to 
develop the exact dictionaries and statement types that will fit their 
needs as well as possible.

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Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-26 Thread Dennis Kane
On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 7:07:52 PM UTC-7, Isaac Schlueter wrote:


 The MIT license in node (as well as the MIT and BSD licenses in the 
 vast majority of open source node programs) explicitly allows use for 
 closed-source commercial applications.  If Dennis wants to keep his 
 source closed, then that's his prerogative.  In fact, he can take all 
 the modules we create, and use them in his closed-source proprietary 
 thing, so long as he abides by the extremely liberal licenses that 
 most of them use.  If you think he's wrong about the value of open 
 source, or its overblownness, refute it with data.  (Or don't, and 
 just go back to cranking out awesome open source software.) 


Let's all remember what open source is really all about.  A program is 
called closed source if it is distributed in binary format only.  The open 
source movement makes the demand that one cannot distribute a binary 
program using, for example, GPL'ed code without also making the source code 
available.

But a server side process has nothing to do with any of this!  I am not 
distributing the program... I am interested in running a service like 
Google (which will hopefully eventually overtake them... but don't tell 
anyone I said that).

Is anyone seriously demanding Google to freely distribute all of their 
painstakingly developed search algorithms?  Not likely!

The basic fact is that this thing is the result of years and years of 
absolute psychological warfare between me and my computers.  And given the 
fact that robust NatLang Processing (weak AI) is something of a holy grail 
for tech enthusiasts, the stakes in all of this are quite big.

I am not saying that releasing the code for this won't ever happen.  But I 
am saying that releasing code is a very major decision that should never be 
taken lightly.  All I do know is that now is not the time.

But I will talk about it.  I won't want to give away too many of the 
technicals in an open forum, but I will give some of them away to people 
who I can trust.  And in order to me to be able to trust someone fully, I 
have to feel that they actually have an interest in the problems 
surrounding NLP.

The Net is absolutely littered with freely available NLP projects, code and 
all .  They are just not interesting.  But you know what is interesting?  A 
site with a lone input box on a white background with a snazzy, colorful 
logo above it (sound familiar?) that just works as advertised.  I want to 
get something like that on the site pretty soon.

Now that I'm pretty well done with the hair-pulling aspects of my coding, I 
can start having fun with putting variety into the thing (giving it the 
wow factor).  Different kinds of words, statements, sense checking, etc. 
 This kind of stuff should not be very difficult for any competent 
programmer.

That's what I really want to start getting on the same wavelength with 
people around here.  Stop thinking that this thing has to be some kind of 
end-all-be-all killer app from the outset.  I mean, there are so many 
things to be done.  I want to be able to translate natural ways of 
referring to time points (last week, the day after tomorrow, etc) into 
their precise Unix timestamps.  Not very difficult work, but it's something 
that really should start getting worked on.

I really feel that this thing could give quite a few of you out there a 
comfortable living.  This could open up totally new vistas of the tech 
sector.  This has the potential of going places pretty quickly, and the 
earlier that people get in on it, the greater the potential for reward.


Dennis, since you came here ostensibly trying to raise interest among 
 other developers (and have been mostly successful, reading through the 
 thread), I would suggest re-thinking your approach somewhat.  I'm not 
 talking about what's right or wrong, merely what's effective.  Many 
 people come to a project like Node.js because they feel strongly about 
 open source software.  If your goal is to recruit them, you should 
 think about the effects that your words have.  If you want to recruit 
 developers who *aren't* passionate about open source software, then 
 you're in the wrong place. 

 I've already been told more than once to rethink/change my approach. 
 Seriously?  I mean, let's get serious here.  The only time I get snarky is 
when people get pushy with their demands to just hand out something that 
has resulted from years of torment.  This just is not any old program.  It 
just isn't.  Period.

Again, I have to reiterate that there is a vast difference between the 
philosophy of open source as espoused by Eric Raymond, Richard Stallman and 
company and the reality of people actually opening up source code in order 
to actually *improve* it.  Please someone break open the source for emacs 
right now and make it better.  I dare you.  My philosophical views are 
always changing.  Conservative, liberal, whatever, blah blah.  I'm just not 
dealing with any of it 

Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-26 Thread Dennis Kane
On Thursday, April 26, 2012 10:57:26 AM UTC-7, Mark Hahn wrote:

 I guess the question everyone is thinking (or asking) is why are you here? 
  I can understand the recruiting, but I can't think of any other reason.

 Which means: if I don't want to give away the entirety of my labors that 
I've been agonizing over for all these years, then I have no legitimate 
reason to post to this forum.  I already said that I will talk about it. 
 But if no one is interested in the coolness factor of the thing, then I 
guess there's nothing else for me to talk about.  I can just move on to 
other places to find people who want to help me get something pretty 
awesome started.  No worries.  I'm just looking for friends who would like 
to work together.  I can't force anyone to get interested.

Oh yeah, there's always this reason:  this thread has top ranking on google 
search node ai, and my site is now listed on the engines.  Before I 
posted here, my site wasn't even on google!

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Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-25 Thread Matt
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:03 AM, Dennis Kane dkan...@gmail.com wrote:

 I do find the whole open source movement a tad pointless.  For me, the
 source code always takes a back seat to good API documentation, well
 commented header files, decent man pages, a good bug reporting/fixing
 system, etc.


I think you're probably in the wrong place to make that kind of comment.
The entire node ecosystem is built on open source. It's OK to be pragmatic
and say there's a place for closed source too (I would agree), but don't
call open source pointless.

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Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-25 Thread Dennis Kane
Was just saying it is, a tad.  Maybe pointless was a bad word choice. 
 Overblown is probably better.  Don't think you can deny that without those 
other things, the source code of any non trivial program is quite a 
worthless commodity in and of itself.  The entire node ecosystem, at the 
moment, is at the point where the programs are still fairly trivial, and so 
the value of source code is still relatively high.  That state of affairs 
won't last forever.

Anyway, I guess the larger point is that I feel my program has the 
potential to be quite profitable in the future.  I still am fairly young 
and quite hungry.  I would much rather be very close with a few business 
associates than just another anonymous user on github who everyone takes 
for granted.  I have ambitions, and I won't apologize for that.

On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 5:33:36 AM UTC-7, Matt Sergeant wrote:

 On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:03 AM, Dennis Kane wrote:

 I do find the whole open source movement a tad pointless.  For me, the 
 source code always takes a back seat to good API documentation, well 
 commented header files, decent man pages, a good bug reporting/fixing 
 system, etc.


 I think you're probably in the wrong place to make that kind of comment. 
 The entire node ecosystem is built on open source. It's OK to be pragmatic 
 and say there's a place for closed source too (I would agree), but don't 
 call open source pointless.


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Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-25 Thread Dennis Kane
Was just saying it is, a tad.  Maybe pointless was a bad word choice. 
 Overblown is probably better.  Don't think you can deny that without those 
other things, the source code of any non trivial program is quite a 
worthless commodity in and of itself.  The entire node ecosystem, at the 
moment, is at the point where the programs are still fairly trivial, and so 
the value of source code is still relatively high.  That state of affairs 
won't last forever.

Anyway, I guess the larger point is that I feel my program has the 
potential to be quite profitable in the future.  I still am fairly young 
and quite hungry.  I would much rather be very close with a few business 
associates than just another anonymous user on github who everyone takes 
for granted.  I have ambitions, and I won't apologize for that.

On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 5:33:36 AM UTC-7, Matt Sergeant wrote:

 On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:03 AM, Dennis Kane wrote:

 I do find the whole open source movement a tad pointless.  For me, the 
 source code always takes a back seat to good API documentation, well 
 commented header files, decent man pages, a good bug reporting/fixing 
 system, etc.


 I think you're probably in the wrong place to make that kind of comment. 
 The entire node ecosystem is built on open source. It's OK to be pragmatic 
 and say there's a place for closed source too (I would agree), but don't 
 call open source pointless.


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Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-25 Thread Dennis Kane
Was just saying it is, a tad.  Maybe pointless was a bad word choice. 
 Overblown is probably better.  Don't think you can deny that without those 
other things, the source code of any non trivial program is quite a 
worthless commodity in and of itself.  The entire node ecosystem, at the 
moment, is at the point where the programs are still fairly trivial, and so 
the value of source code is still relatively high.  That state of affairs 
won't last forever.

Anyway, I guess the larger point is that I feel my program has the 
potential to be quite profitable in the future.  I still am fairly young 
and quite hungry.  I would much rather be very close with a few business 
associates than just another anonymous user on github who everyone takes 
for granted.  I have ambitions, and I won't apologize for that.

On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 5:33:36 AM UTC-7, Matt Sergeant wrote:

 On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:03 AM, Dennis Kane wrote:

 I do find the whole open source movement a tad pointless.  For me, the 
 source code always takes a back seat to good API documentation, well 
 commented header files, decent man pages, a good bug reporting/fixing 
 system, etc.


 I think you're probably in the wrong place to make that kind of comment. 
 The entire node ecosystem is built on open source. It's OK to be pragmatic 
 and say there's a place for closed source too (I would agree), but don't 
 call open source pointless.


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Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-25 Thread Matt
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Dennis Kane dkan...@gmail.com wrote:

 Was just saying it is, a tad.  Maybe pointless was a bad word choice.
  Overblown is probably better.  Don't think you can deny that without those
 other things, the source code of any non trivial program is quite a
 worthless commodity in and of itself.  The entire node ecosystem, at the
 moment, is at the point where the programs are still fairly trivial, and so
 the value of source code is still relatively high.  That state of affairs
 won't last forever.


You're digging an even bigger hole - there are significant and important
applications written in Node that are far from trivial. Take my own
Haraka for example - almost half of the contributions have come from
Craigslist. The application has been significantly improved because it is
open source.


 Anyway, I guess the larger point is that I feel my program has the
 potential to be quite profitable in the future.  I still am fairly young
 and quite hungry.  I would much rather be very close with a few business
 associates than just another anonymous user on github who everyone takes
 for granted.  I have ambitions, and I won't apologize for that.


That's fine - almost everyone who contributes to open source also makes
money from software that isn't open source. But you're belittling a huge
community of people who have spent way longer figuring this stuff out than
you have. Being condescending about the node ecosystem and node
applications and open source in general on this mailing list is just going
to turn people off your future products. Remember that stuff you say on the
internet stays there forever.

Matt.

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Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-25 Thread Dean Landolt
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Dennis Kane dkan...@gmail.com wrote:

 OK guys, firefighter Kane to the rescue.


Some firefighter -- you're the one w/ the lighter, now you pour on fuel and
claim you're here to help?


 I said tad.  For full disclosure, I've been using Debian for many years,
 and I feel it is by far the best OS in existence.  I am writing this in
 nano, the source code of which I have done some hacking on.

 I'm here because I can't do this thing by myself.  If someone wants to
 help me, then the code will be open source for them.


I don't think that word means what you think it means.


 If things can begin to get off the ground, then we can start to think
 about releasing some code with a liberal license.

 I don't know what else to say other than I'm excited as hell to try to
 make some major noise in the free markets.  If I come in here being all
 gung ho about open sourcing all of this, then that will be much less likely.


Now I *know* that word -- free markets -- doesn't mean what you think it
means. There's nothing contradictory about open source and free markets.
Quite the opposite, as both logic and recent history demonstrate, and as
has already been pointed out to you.


 The test of this thing is that it just works.  If anyone wants to help
 me get it to just work even better, I would be stupid to not bring them
 along on this crazy ride.

 As far as my attitude is concerned, I admit to being an a-hole. Always
 have been, probably always will.  I'm a little too old for reevaluation to
 do any good.  Hopefully my talents will make up for my personality
 shortcomings in a few people's eyes.


You don't come off as an asshole -- and besides, we have no problem with
assholes: we're developers. Saying the things you're saying, to the
audience you're saying them to -- well, it's that you come off as an idiot.
The good news is this is a lot easier to fix.


 I would really like to get off the religious warfare and get back to the
 thing itself... ie, what kinds of statements would YOU like the program be
 able to handle?


Oh, you're looking for help? Here's a suggestion: you could open up the
code and see what people do. Far be it from us to tell you what to do with
your code, but you're the one asking for help, and this is naturally the
first bit of feedback you're going to get. Why would any of us invest much
more of our precious time helping you improve your proprietary product? The
world doesn't work that way -- at least, not anymore.

So yes, back to the thing itself: node.js (this is the node.js list, after
all). You've expressed clearly that you have no interest in making your
work part of node's ecosystem. So at this point you're just noise, no
different than a recruiter. You just said as much yourself: I'm here
because I can't do this thing by myself. At least recruiters, even the
worst of them, have a payed position to offer and the good sense not to
directly insult the target audience :P

Good luck to you and your product, but kindly take your noise elsewhere.

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Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-25 Thread Dennis Kane


 Seems like you still have a long way to go to reach that. :D 

 I don't think it should be too much longer before I can start making some 
sales calls based on the progress I've already made.



 Well, your long-time goal is to make a good program that can answer 
 questions using some logic if necessary, right? Well, I think you'll have 
 to make your program able to parse Wikipedia texts and so on for that. 
 Maybe start with the simple english wikipedia ( 
 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language )? Good luck. :P 

 And before you can do that, you'll probably have to build in a dictionary 
 backend. 

 Nah, wikipedia is made for human consumption.  As long as there is a good 
enough parser on the market, there will be plenty of people motivated 
enough to write compliant programs directly into it.  I see this thing 
eventually taking a pretty good bite out of Wikipedia's market share. The 
way it'll work, for the forseeable future, I think, is that we will work 
heavily with corporate clients on what kinds of words and statements they 
would like their customers and employees to be directly executable.  Trying 
to do everything for everyone all at once is simply a prescription for a 
major disaster.  I see many clients supplying the dictionaries themselves.
 

 Oooh, and when all of that works, make it able to accept commands. :) 
 Make me a sandwich 

Funny, but I think we're gonna need alot of help from MIT's AI robotics 
department before that becomes anywhere close to feasible. 

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Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-25 Thread Stewart Mckinney
Hey wait who hired the troll?

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 8:53 PM, Dennis Kane dkan...@gmail.com wrote:


 Seems like you still have a long way to go to reach that. :D

 I don't think it should be too much longer before I can start making some
 sales calls based on the progress I've already made.



 Well, your long-time goal is to make a good program that can answer
 questions using some logic if necessary, right? Well, I think you'll have
 to make your program able to parse Wikipedia texts and so on for that.
 Maybe start with the simple english wikipedia (
 http://simple.wikipedia.org/**wiki/English_languagehttp://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language)?
  Good luck. :P

 And before you can do that, you'll probably have to build in a dictionary
 backend.

 Nah, wikipedia is made for human consumption.  As long as there is a good
 enough parser on the market, there will be plenty of people motivated
 enough to write compliant programs directly into it.  I see this thing
 eventually taking a pretty good bite out of Wikipedia's market share. The
 way it'll work, for the forseeable future, I think, is that we will work
 heavily with corporate clients on what kinds of words and statements they
 would like their customers and employees to be directly executable.  Trying
 to do everything for everyone all at once is simply a prescription for a
 major disaster.  I see many clients supplying the dictionaries themselves.


 Oooh, and when all of that works, make it able to accept commands. :)
 Make me a sandwich

 Funny, but I think we're gonna need alot of help from MIT's AI robotics
 department before that becomes anywhere close to feasible.

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Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-25 Thread Dennis Kane


 You don't come off as an asshole -- and besides, we have no problem with 
 assholes: we're developers. Saying the things you're saying, to the 
 audience you're saying them to -- well, it's that you come off as an idiot. 
 The good news is this is a lot easier to fix.
  

I'm an idiot because of my political views, and not my programming ability, 
I assume.  The only thing I'm worried about is the programming.  If you've 
got some criticism about that, I'm all ears.
  

 Oh, you're looking for help? Here's a suggestion: you could open up the 
 code and see what people do. 

No.  Now chill out about the open source thing.  It's boring.  Redundant. 
Etc.
 

 Far be it from us to tell you what to do with your code, but you're the 
 one asking for help, and this is naturally the first bit of feedback you're 
 going to get. Why would any of us invest much more of our precious time 
 helping you improve your proprietary product? The world doesn't work that 
 way -- at least, not anymore.

 Dude, I'm looking to get a business off the ground.  People work with each 
other and try to make money off of their labors.  It has happened once or 
twice before.  You say the word proprietary as if its one of the seven 
deadly ones.
 

 So yes, back to the thing itself: node.js (this is the node.js list, after 
 all). You've expressed clearly that you have no interest in making your 
 work part of node's ecosystem. So at this point you're just noise, no 
 different than a recruiter. You just said as much yourself: I'm here 
 because I can't do this thing by myself. At least recruiters, even the 
 worst of them, have a payed position to offer and the good sense not to 
 directly insult the target audience :P

 Sorry.  I don't have any personal feelings about node's ecosystem.  It's 
just a tool that I take for granted.  I set up the site with express, and 
now I don't think about it.  It just works.  I have a server hooked into 
the main parser to shuttle stuff between it and express.  Sometimes I need 
to make use of the filesystem.  Other that that, I'm pretty much using 
straight javascript. It's google's v8 work that's doing most of the heavy 
lifting for me.  Besides, I didn't know that I had to have feelings for the 
tools that I use in order to be accepted in the development community.  And 
yes, I am recruiting people who are interested in doing something awesome 
with this tool.  And I'll offer something even better that paychecks: how 
about co-ownership?
  

 Good luck to you and your product, but kindly take your noise elsewhere.


Nah, I think I'll chill here for awhile.  I'm sure there are some people 
around here like me that appreciate new technology over the same old 
politics. 

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Re: [nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-25 Thread Isaac Schlueter
Please do not bicker over politics here.  This is not the place, and
it never ever ends well.

Please do not call each other idiots or make other personal remarks.
If you want to say that a piece of *code* is terrible, or that a
software approach is misguided, or that a statement is factually
untrue, then that's perfectly fine (as long as it actually is!) but
the Node.js user list must remain respectful.  (Challenging someone
for benchmark numbers when they've made performance assertions is also
not only accepted, but encouraged.)

But a personal insult is not allowed, even if it's warranted.  If
someone's *actually* causing problems, let me or one of the other
admins know, and they'll get a warning, and if that doesn't work,
they'll get banned.  (Even if the person is an admin.  You can
complain about me to the other core devs on this list, and they'll set
me straight.)  Calling someone a troll is insulting if they are not,
and it is entertaining if they are.

Don't complain in public about another user.  Just talk to an admin in
private.  (Or email them directly off-list, if you feel comfortable
doing so.)


More on topic,

The MIT license in node (as well as the MIT and BSD licenses in the
vast majority of open source node programs) explicitly allows use for
closed-source commercial applications.  If Dennis wants to keep his
source closed, then that's his prerogative.  In fact, he can take all
the modules we create, and use them in his closed-source proprietary
thing, so long as he abides by the extremely liberal licenses that
most of them use.  If you think he's wrong about the value of open
source, or its overblownness, refute it with data.  (Or don't, and
just go back to cranking out awesome open source software.)


Dennis, since you came here ostensibly trying to raise interest among
other developers (and have been mostly successful, reading through the
thread), I would suggest re-thinking your approach somewhat.  I'm not
talking about what's right or wrong, merely what's effective.  Many
people come to a project like Node.js because they feel strongly about
open source software.  If your goal is to recruit them, you should
think about the effects that your words have.  If you want to recruit
developers who *aren't* passionate about open source software, then
you're in the wrong place.


On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 18:20, Dennis Kane dkan...@gmail.com wrote:
 You don't come off as an asshole -- and besides, we have no problem with
 assholes: we're developers. Saying the things you're saying, to the audience
 you're saying them to -- well, it's that you come off as an idiot. The good
 news is this is a lot easier to fix.


 I'm an idiot because of my political views, and not my programming ability,
 I assume.  The only thing I'm worried about is the programming.  If you've
 got some criticism about that, I'm all ears.


 Oh, you're looking for help? Here's a suggestion: you could open up the
 code and see what people do.

 No.  Now chill out about the open source thing.  It's boring.  Redundant.
 Etc.


 Far be it from us to tell you what to do with your code, but you're the
 one asking for help, and this is naturally the first bit of feedback you're
 going to get. Why would any of us invest much more of our precious time
 helping you improve your proprietary product? The world doesn't work that
 way -- at least, not anymore.

 Dude, I'm looking to get a business off the ground.  People work with each
 other and try to make money off of their labors.  It has happened once or
 twice before.  You say the word proprietary as if its one of the seven
 deadly ones.


 So yes, back to the thing itself: node.js (this is the node.js list, after
 all). You've expressed clearly that you have no interest in making your work
 part of node's ecosystem. So at this point you're just noise, no different
 than a recruiter. You just said as much yourself: I'm here because I can't
 do this thing by myself. At least recruiters, even the worst of them, have
 a payed position to offer and the good sense not to directly insult the
 target audience :P

 Sorry.  I don't have any personal feelings about node's ecosystem.  It's
 just a tool that I take for granted.  I set up the site with express, and
 now I don't think about it.  It just works.  I have a server hooked into the
 main parser to shuttle stuff between it and express.  Sometimes I need to
 make use of the filesystem.  Other that that, I'm pretty much using straight
 javascript. It's google's v8 work that's doing most of the heavy lifting for
 me.  Besides, I didn't know that I had to have feelings for the tools that I
 use in order to be accepted in the development community.  And yes, I am
 recruiting people who are interested in doing something awesome with this
 tool.  And I'll offer something even better that paychecks: how about
 co-ownership?


 Good luck to you and your product, but kindly take your noise elsewhere.


 Nah, I think I'll chill here for awhile.  

[nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-24 Thread Dennis Kane
Hi Jann,

I'm not sure you really want the source at this point... at least not
without some pretty detailed explanation to go along with it!

I first started working on the algorithm six years ago in perl, which
also happened to be when I was first learning how to program.  Given
my inexperience, that effort didn't amount to much.  But it has only
been less than a month since I began from scratch in Javascript.  So
the overall algorithm has been sitting in my head for quite some time,
but it has only been very recently that I've decided to take up the AI
challenge again... this time with far more programming ability.

As far as it goes, I have so far put zero effort into having a decent
variety of words being recognized.  On the site, you will find
instructions to see what words are recognized, and how to add to the
list.

At present, there is no facility to refer to things without using some
kind of article or possessive...  So to do something like what you
want, you will have to type the following two lines to get it to
recognize the words:

nouns:cake
adjs:delicious

Then you can type something like:

There is a delicious cake

or...

There is a cake
It is delicious

or even...

There is a cake and it is delicious

Then you can say...

There is a boy named mike
He has the cake
Mikes cake is blue

The idea of saying cake is delicious is much more dangerous because
it labels an entire type class.  This would disallow the existence of
bad tasting cakes.  I think at this early phase, it is much better to
think in terms of instances rather than entire classes.  Then once the
logic of instances gets worked out, we can start thinking about
classes (carefully!).

The program does allow you to give arbitrary names like this:

There is a boy named Zebulon

or

There is a girl
She is named Zelda

It currently looks for any arbitrary sequence of characters after the
word named and then adds this sequence into the list of recognized
names.

On Apr 24, 7:51 am, Jann Horn jannh...@googlemail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 10:50:25AM -0700, Dennis Kane wrote:
  Detailed instructions can be found at ai.webcyte.net.

  This project is currently meant to be a prototype in order to build
  interest in developing a robust AI system that just works (read: NOT
  another chatterbot!).  It can possibly be used as the intelligent backend
  to a Siri-like voice interface in the not too distant future.
  Will probably want to develop an open source version for non-business
  purposes that can be used on the client side (eventually) and keep the
  supported commercial version well hidden from prying eyes on the server
  side.

  Thoughts?

 Looks cool, I want the source! :D

 How much time did you spend on that so far?

 I think you should query wiktionary.org or so for unknown words. It doesn't 
 even understand cake is delicious. :( Also, you'll have to somehow support 
 names it doesn't know about - how do you want to do that?

  application_pgp-signature_part
  1KViewDownload

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[nodejs] Re: Your thoughts wanted on a node AI project

2012-04-23 Thread Evan
That's great!

I am reminded of this blog [[ http://www.briangrinstead.com ]] which also 
has some neat AI algorithms written in JS.  He wrote them for the browser, 
but I can tell you his A* implementation 
[[ http://www.briangrinstead.com/blog/astar-search-algorithm-in-javascript 
]] works great in node :D

On Monday, April 23, 2012 10:50:25 AM UTC-7, denniskane wrote:

 The site is powered by an express server, which exec's a separate node AI 
 process for each new IP address.  Each process will automatically end after 
 10 minutes of inactivity.  You can interface with the process either 
 through a browser at ai.webcyte.net or by sending a URL encoded GET 
 request to http://ai.webcyte.net/send.  So, the comand line for the 
 phrase, there is a boy named joe using curl will look like:

 $ curl http://ai.webcyte.net/send/there%20is%20a%20boy%20named%20joe

 Detailed instructions can be found at ai.webcyte.net.

 This project is currently meant to be a prototype in order to build 
 interest in developing a robust AI system that just works (read: NOT 
 another chatterbot!).  It can possibly be used as the intelligent backend 
 to a Siri-like voice interface in the not too distant future.

 I am interested in getting in touch with academic/research types as well 
 as business types.

 Will probably want to develop an open source version for non-business 
 purposes that can be used on the client side (eventually) and keep the 
 supported commercial version well hidden from prying eyes on the server 
 side.

 Thoughts?


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