[NSP] Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting!
I'm hunting tunes. Nowt to do specifically with smallpipes, but at least one is Scots. And I know there are some mighty experienced tune historians among you And I have looked in Farne, Matt!:-) Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. He lists tune names she gives. Some, like The Turnpike Gate and At Patrick's Day in the Morning are on The sessions listing, though I can't know how much or little they've changed. Some others I can find, or know already, but I'm drawing a blank on three, and will be very grateful for any pointers. Where have you been all the night? she describes as a Scotch Tune. It's tempting to think she's mis-remembered the line in Billy Boy, but if there's a title out there it would be good to know. Then there's Moll Brook, and Harlequin Hamlet. Some others she mentions are trad. tunes like Haste[n] to the Wedding and The Gal I left behind me so while these may be stage tunes, it's apparent she was playing traditional dance tunes. She also says that she played Polkas, but doesn't name any. Thanks for looking - thanks for any info. Best wishes, Richard. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Cymbal
On 31 Oct Richard York wrote lots including: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Richard Can't help with the tunes I'm afraid but it might be that the instrument she calls the cymbal is in fact the cimbalom. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom. Good luck with your quest. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting!
On 31 Oct 2010, at 16:13, Richard York wrote: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Hurdy gurdy has been used variously in the past to describe a number of very different instruments. I wonder whether cymbal is related to cimbalom (various spellings), the Eastern European dulcimer? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting!
It's difficult to know. I don't want to hijack too much time from the pipes here, and am asking the hurdy gurdy group to share any views on this. There are arguments for and against both dulcimer gurdy as we know it, in the text. Thanks for the help, though! Best wishes, Richard. On 31/10/2010 18:28, Francis Wood wrote: On 31 Oct 2010, at 16:13, Richard York wrote: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Hurdy gurdy has been used variously in the past to describe a number of very d ifferent instruments. I wonder whether cymbal is related to cimbalom (various spellings), the East ern European dulcimer? Francis -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cymbal
It's generally accepted that she played the hurdy gurdy. http://dl.tufts.edu/view_image.jsp?pid=tufts:MS004.002.054.DO01.00011 Hurdy gurdies were given to some to be able to make a living rather than going to the workhouse etc. That illustration is from 1851 (taken from an earlier daguerreotype) so she was still alive but, of course, unlikely to be taken from life (and we do all know how accurate newspapers, journals and books are, don't we). Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:13 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal Hi Anthony, Thanks for this suggestion, which does indeed seem logical. The Hurdy gurdy net group were talking about early names for the gurdy recently, and this is where Old Sarah came up. Mayhew, who was an experienced journalist who interviewed hundreds of street people, so ought to know what he talked about, called it a hurdy gurdy. There's a Scots reference in the 16th C to Cymphan, thought to be from the older symphony and that's one explanation. She was fairly old when she talked to him, and from the early repertoire she had she was possibly taught by an Irish or Scots musician, so a misremembered Cymphan type word may have become Cymbal. But I certainly wouldn't go to the stake on that! The old lady also talked about having to keep the works covered so that pennies punters threw didn't get in and damage them. She spoke of having to learn tunes, and mastering them over a few weeks at first, so it wasn't a barrel organ type hurdy gurdy; and the dulcimer is lacking in interior works, so I'm fairly happy going with the gurdy as we now know it - there are pictures of people playing them on London streets. Thanks all for tolerating this excursion outside the Land Of Smallpipe. Best wishes, Richard. On 31/10/2010 16:38, Anthony Robb wrote: On 31 Oct Richard York wrote lots including: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Richard Can't help with the tunes I'm afraid but it might be that the instrument she calls the cymbal is in fact the cimbalom. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom. Good luck with your quest. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cymbal
Oops, of course a daguerreotype is a photograph so probably was accurate after all (red face). That's a hurdy gurdy she's holding regardless of what she called it. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:13 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal Hi Anthony, Thanks for this suggestion, which does indeed seem logical. The Hurdy gurdy net group were talking about early names for the gurdy recently, and this is where Old Sarah came up. Mayhew, who was an experienced journalist who interviewed hundreds of street people, so ought to know what he talked about, called it a hurdy gurdy. There's a Scots reference in the 16th C to Cymphan, thought to be from the older symphony and that's one explanation. She was fairly old when she talked to him, and from the early repertoire she had she was possibly taught by an Irish or Scots musician, so a misremembered Cymphan type word may have become Cymbal. But I certainly wouldn't go to the stake on that! The old lady also talked about having to keep the works covered so that pennies punters threw didn't get in and damage them. She spoke of having to learn tunes, and mastering them over a few weeks at first, so it wasn't a barrel organ type hurdy gurdy; and the dulcimer is lacking in interior works, so I'm fairly happy going with the gurdy as we now know it - there are pictures of people playing them on London streets. Thanks all for tolerating this excursion outside the Land Of Smallpipe. Best wishes, Richard. On 31/10/2010 16:38, Anthony Robb wrote: On 31 Oct Richard York wrote lots including: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Richard Can't help with the tunes I'm afraid but it might be that the instrument she calls the cymbal is in fact the cimbalom. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom. Good luck with your quest. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cymbal
Fantastic again! For a piping group this is really providing me with great hurdy gurdy stuff! Thank you, Colin. As with John, I expect if I'd typed the right question phrased the right way into Google... but you did and I'm delighted. As you say, it's not 100% conclusive, but if that's the contemporary illustration Mayhew would presumably have objected if that was not what she played. And it certainly goes with the text describing her guide accompanying her. Best wishes and more thanks, Richard. On 31/10/2010 19:07, Colin wrote: It's generally accepted that she played the hurdy gurdy. http://dl.tufts.edu/view_image.jsp?pid=tufts:MS004.002.054.DO01.00011 Hurdy gurdies were given to some to be able to make a living rather than going to the workhouse etc. That illustration is from 1851 (taken from an earlier daguerreotype) so she was still alive but, of course, unlikely to be taken from life (and we do all know how accurate newspapers, journals and books are, don't we). Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:13 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal Hi Anthony, Thanks for this suggestion, which does indeed seem logical. The Hurdy gurdy net group were talking about early names for the gurdy recently, and this is where Old Sarah came up. Mayhew, who was an experienced journalist who interviewed hundreds of street people, so ought to know what he talked about, called it a hurdy gurdy. There's a Scots reference in the 16th C to Cymphan, thought to be from the older symphony and that's one explanation. She was fairly old when she talked to him, and from the early repertoire she had she was possibly taught by an Irish or Scots musician, so a misremembered Cymphan type word may have become Cymbal. But I certainly wouldn't go to the stake on that! The old lady also talked about having to keep the works covered so that pennies punters threw didn't get in and damage them. She spoke of having to learn tunes, and mastering them over a few weeks at first, so it wasn't a barrel organ type hurdy gurdy; and the dulcimer is lacking in interior works, so I'm fairly happy going with the gurdy as we now know it - there are pictures of people playing them on London streets. Thanks all for tolerating this excursion outside the Land Of Smallpipe. Best wishes, Richard. On 31/10/2010 16:38, Anthony Robb wrote: On 31 Oct Richard York wrote lots including: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Richard Can't help with the tunes I'm afraid but it might be that the instrument she calls the cymbal is in fact the cimbalom. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom. Good luck with your quest. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cymbal
Fantastic again! For a piping group this is really providing me with great hurdy gurdy stuff! Thank you, Colin. As with John, I expect if I'd typed the right question phrased the right way into Google... but you did and I'm delighted. As you say, it's not 100% conclusive, but if that's the contemporary illustration Mayhew would presumably have objected if that was not what she played. And it certainly goes with the text describing her guide accompanying her. Best wishes and more thanks, Richard. On 31/10/2010 19:07, Colin wrote: It's generally accepted that she played the hurdy gurdy. http://dl.tufts.edu/view_image.jsp?pid=tufts:MS004.002.054.DO01.00011 Hurdy gurdies were given to some to be able to make a living rather than going to the workhouse etc. That illustration is from 1851 (taken from an earlier daguerreotype) so she was still alive but, of course, unlikely to be taken from life (and we do all know how accurate newspapers, journals and books are, don't we). Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:13 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal Hi Anthony, Thanks for this suggestion, which does indeed seem logical. The Hurdy gurdy net group were talking about early names for the gurdy recently, and this is where Old Sarah came up. Mayhew, who was an experienced journalist who interviewed hundreds of street people, so ought to know what he talked about, called it a hurdy gurdy. There's a Scots reference in the 16th C to Cymphan, thought to be from the older symphony and that's one explanation. She was fairly old when she talked to him, and from the early repertoire she had she was possibly taught by an Irish or Scots musician, so a misremembered Cymphan type word may have become Cymbal. But I certainly wouldn't go to the stake on that! The old lady also talked about having to keep the works covered so that pennies punters threw didn't get in and damage them. She spoke of having to learn tunes, and mastering them over a few weeks at first, so it wasn't a barrel organ type hurdy gurdy; and the dulcimer is lacking in interior works, so I'm fairly happy going with the gurdy as we now know it - there are pictures of people playing them on London streets. Thanks all for tolerating this excursion outside the Land Of Smallpipe. Best wishes, Richard. On 31/10/2010 16:38, Anthony Robb wrote: On 31 Oct Richard York wrote lots including: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Richard Can't help with the tunes I'm afraid but it might be that the instrument she calls the cymbal is in fact the cimbalom. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom. Good luck with your quest. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
