[NSP] Doubleday
Hello Colin and Richard I agree with much you say. I like the comparison with apples and potatoes. But that is exactly what Doubleday is saying: 'don't try and make chips with apples or apple crumble with potatoes'. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doubleday
Ooh, need to take care with words like "expressive", I think. In an attempt to get more expression, isn't that what choyting is all about? We need to be careful when comparing different instruments. I have found a great deal of expressiveness listening to some pipers but in the way they play and their technique rather than the sound produced (which, on the pipes, would be pretty consistent, I hope). A fiddle player can alter the pressure, the speed of bowing etc - things that are just not possible to the same extent on the pipes, I would have thought. One of the beauties (to me) of the pipes is that the sound produced remains more or less the same (unlike many instruments when all sorts of wails and vibrato can be added) but the WAY they are played can vary so much between pipers (and I mean good pipers, of course). Many instruments with fixed reeds can be made to be more "expressive" of course (thinking things like concertina and volume/tremolo etc) but I just don't see that for the pipes. Maybe that's why they are such an important instrument. I may, of course, just be waffling in the breeze (oh, good name for a tune there - must write it) and, if so, ignore me but I just can't see a point in comparing apples and potatoes (you choose which is which). Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Richard York" To: "Anthony Robb" ; "NSP group" Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 11:28 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Doubleday I'll think more on what he meant when I have more time! For expression - I quite agree with you on fiddle tunes. On the other hand, there are expressive tunes written primarily for pipes, surely, where they sound superbly best on pipes? And it is truly hard for anyone to make them work with these, because of the very dynamic limitations you mention. When I had some lessons with Jean-Pierre Rasle on my first Swayne pipes, he rightly said that the old pipers (in France in his case) rated it much harder to make a good job of a slow air than a dance tune. And it's all subjective, ain't it! For me, I find the nsp's far more expressive than my very nice toned piano accordion, which has any amount of dynamic control. All best wishes, Richard. On 17/12/2010 22:46, Anthony Robb wrote: Hello Richard Doubleday wrote: The Northumberland small-pipe is fitted up upon the plan of construction common to all bagpipes aEUR" that is to say, aEUR" it consists of a pipe with stops, by means of which the melody is played, and of three longer pipes sounding different musical intervals in such a way as to produce a rude and imperfect accompaniment to the melody. Taking this in the context of his whole argument he seems to be saying that common forms of bagpipe have chanters which aren't in tune over their range and therefore clash with the constant reference point of the drones. But he then goes on to say that the special quality of the smallpipes is that they can be played in tune and make a melodious sound. It's interesting how we arrive at two contrasting interpretations of his words. For me he delights in the sound of the small-pipes. On the point of expression I've been moved to tears as much by the pipes as the fiddle. The question is, can they match the fiddle when playing the big fiddle tunes? I have to say after 45 years involvement at all levels in this music I have yet to find a single example. I would dearly love to as the pipes are my heritage. I heard them as a school boy and loved them more than any other instrument in the world, but loving them more than any other instrument is one thing, convincing myself they are the most expressive instrument in the world is another. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doubleday
I'll think more on what he meant when I have more time! For expression - I quite agree with you on fiddle tunes. On the other hand, there are expressive tunes written primarily for pipes, surely, where they sound superbly best on pipes? And it is truly hard for anyone to make them work with these, because of the very dynamic limitations you mention. When I had some lessons with Jean-Pierre Rasle on my first Swayne pipes, he rightly said that the old pipers (in France in his case) rated it much harder to make a good job of a slow air than a dance tune. And it's all subjective, ain't it! For me, I find the nsp's far more expressive than my very nice toned piano accordion, which has any amount of dynamic control. All best wishes, Richard. On 17/12/2010 22:46, Anthony Robb wrote: Hello Richard Doubleday wrote: The Northumberland small-pipe is fitted up upon the plan of construction common to all bagpipes aEUR" that is to say, aEUR" it consists of a pipe with stops, by means of which the melody is played, and of three longer pipes sounding different musical intervals in such a way as to produce a rude and imperfect accompaniment to the melody. Taking this in the context of his whole argument he seems to be saying that common forms of bagpipe have chanters which aren't in tune over their range and therefore clash with the constant reference point of the drones. But he then goes on to say that the special quality of the smallpipes is that they can be played in tune and make a melodious sound. It's interesting how we arrive at two contrasting interpretations of his words. For me he delights in the sound of the small-pipes. On the point of expression I've been moved to tears as much by the pipes as the fiddle. The question is, can they match the fiddle when playing the big fiddle tunes? I have to say after 45 years involvement at all levels in this music I have yet to find a single example. I would dearly love to as the pipes are my heritage. I heard them as a school boy and loved them more than any other instrument in the world, but loving them more than any other instrument is one thing, convincing myself they are the most expressive instrument in the world is another. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Doubleday
Hello Richard Doubleday wrote: The Northumberland small-pipe is fitted up upon the plan of construction common to all bagpipes aEUR" that is to say, aEUR" it consists of a pipe with stops, by means of which the melody is played, and of three longer pipes sounding different musical intervals in such a way as to produce a rude and imperfect accompaniment to the melody. Taking this in the context of his whole argument he seems to be saying that common forms of bagpipe have chanters which aren't in tune over their range and therefore clash with the constant reference point of the drones. But he then goes on to say that the special quality of the smallpipes is that they can be played in tune and make a melodious sound. It's interesting how we arrive at two contrasting interpretations of his words. For me he delights in the sound of the small-pipes. On the point of expression I've been moved to tears as much by the pipes as the fiddle. The question is, can they match the fiddle when playing the big fiddle tunes? I have to say after 45 years involvement at all levels in this music I have yet to find a single example. I would dearly love to as the pipes are my heritage. I heard them as a school boy and loved them more than any other instrument in the world, but loving them more than any other instrument is one thing, convincing myself they are the most expressive instrument in the world is another. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Doubleday
Hello John This is what Doubleday said of the pipes (my underscores): Thus, this instrument is limited to a single octave; and this (little as it is) admits of all the airs, to which it is really suited, being executed by it's means ; with the additional improvement that it may be played perfectly in tune, whilst the tones it produces being all staccato and of a clear, ringing, pearly, and brilliant character, give the instrument a power which it's appearance by no means promises, and which is really superior when the diminutive size of its chanter or melody-pipe is considered. In truth, whilst every other description of bag-pipe is defective, wanting in distinctness, and more or less out of tune in the upper octave, the Northumbrian pipe, when played by a master, executes the airs for which it has been intended to perfection, and with a precision even in the most rapid movements very pleasing as well as surprising. This doesn't sound to me that he doesn't like the pipes. Yes, Chris Ormston plays the Blackbird beautifully but then having heard Greg Smith doing the same piece on the fiddle takes the air to a far higher, expressive and sublime level. The same is true of Andy May's wonderful Bonny Lass o' Bon Accord - great until you hear the same piece done by the likes of Kenny Wilson (Border Strathspey & Reel Society) again is moving in the way pipes can't achieve. This is true of course in other spheres. Did any one out there have the nisfortune to pay a small fortune to hear James Galway playing "The 4 Seasons"? What a disappointment! Much of the pipes attractiveness lies in the tone. Pair it with fiddle tand it gives acombination of real gut tingling expressiveness; a winning combination. This is as true today as it was when Jamie Allan (we assume) played with Blind Jack o' Knaresborough in the 18th century. Doubleday would have heard the airs he is talking about played intially on instruments with dynamics. Hence his quite understandable disapproval on the sweet sounding (takes a genius to get anything like expression out of these) pipes playing the airs he was used to hearing on fiddle. Doubleday is saying what I have felt myself myself for some time. The pipes are a brilliant but not capable of the highest level of expressiveness. Their strength is their beauty of tone. Pair this with a fiddle say and the effect is awsome. This is as true today as it was in the 18th century when Jamie Allan (we assume) played with Blind Jack o' Knaresborough. Here's my challenge Find me any recording of any fiddle piece played by someone of Chris Ormston's talent i.e a top notch fiddle player and convince me it is not at a different level of musical expression compared to the same piece played on pipes. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: key question
This seems to be a feature of a great many Victorian literary works in my experience. Unfortunately it's a feature which seems to be infectious. Tim On 17 Dec 2010, at 20:33, Francis Wood wrote: > > On 17 Dec 2010, at 16:44, Tim Rolls wrote: > >> Discuss! > > One of the most remarkable qualities of this paper is Doubleday's > extraordinary talent for using a colossal number of words to say absolutely > nothing of any importance. > > A very narrow bore, in my view. > > Perhaps I'm being too unkind to him. The paper's an interesting curiosity. I > got it a while ago as a print-on-demand thing from Amazon. > > Francis > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: key question
Hi John, Interesting that the extract gives you that impression. Having read the whole document I didn't infer that. I tried to isolate the particular part that led me to feel that way, but failed. I think you may need to set aside quarter of an hour and read the whole thing which is in essence a plea to the Duke to use his influence to preserve the Northumbrian culture which he felt to be precious and distinct and endangered, as he (Doubleday) didn't have the clout to do it himself. http://www.archive.org/details/alettertodukeno00doubgoog Tim On 17 Dec 2010, at 19:55, John Dally wrote: > Mr. Doubleday takes great pains to prove his sophistication. Even > allowing for how the sense of some of the words used have changed > since he wrote them, it appears that Doubleday was not enthusiastic > about the NSP or NSPipers in general. So, are we to trust his > judgement overall? On the one hand we have a tradition with > "sentimental" waltzes and airs, most of which post-date Doubleday, > Jack Armstrong's sort of thing. On the other hand, it's difficult to > agree with him about "delicacy of expression", keys, or "sentimental > airs" after listening to Chris Ormston's recording of "The Blackbird" > on SPIRIT OF THE BORDER CD, to name but one example. > > I would like to know more about the cultural context of the document. > What prompted Doubleday to write this? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: key question
On 17 Dec 2010, at 16:44, Tim Rolls wrote: > Discuss! One of the most remarkable qualities of this paper is Doubleday's extraordinary talent for using a colossal number of words to say absolutely nothing of any importance. A very narrow bore, in my view. Perhaps I'm being too unkind to him. The paper's an interesting curiosity. I got it a while ago as a print-on-demand thing from Amazon. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: key question
On 17 Dec 2010, John Dally wrote: > Mr. Doubleday > I would like to know more about the cultural context of the document. > What prompted Doubleday to write this? Here's a bit about him as a starter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Doubleday Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: key question
Mr. Doubleday takes great pains to prove his sophistication. Even allowing for how the sense of some of the words used have changed since he wrote them, it appears that Doubleday was not enthusiastic about the NSP or NSPipers in general. So, are we to trust his judgement overall? On the one hand we have a tradition with "sentimental" waltzes and airs, most of which post-date Doubleday, Jack Armstrong's sort of thing. On the other hand, it's difficult to agree with him about "delicacy of expression", keys, or "sentimental airs" after listening to Chris Ormston's recording of "The Blackbird" on SPIRIT OF THE BORDER CD, to name but one example. I would like to know more about the cultural context of the document. What prompted Doubleday to write this? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: key question
Hello Tim Wonderful stuff! Discuss? I'll have to print off, re-read (probably several times) and inwardly digest it first. It has, however, already given me a warm glow which more than compensates for the sub -zero temperature outside. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: key question
Just when you thought it was all over, it seems it depends upon your point of view, and this may depend on your position in the history. Below an extract from Mr. Thomas Doubleday's letter to the Duke of Northumberland. date a bit difficult due to Google's OCR not coping with Roman dates, but mid-late C19. (1857 apparently) The Northumberland small-pipe is fitted up upon the plan of construction common to all bagpipes that is to say, it consists of a pipe with stops, by means of which the melody is played, and of three longer pipes sounding different musical intervals in such a way as to produce a rude and imperfect accompaniment to the melody. The bag is inflated by means of a small bellows, as the bag of the Irish or union-pipe is inflated. The great peculiarity of the Northumbrian instrument is its comparatively small size and the peculiar mode of fingering or stopping. In the case of other instruments of this kind, that mode of fingering which, in common parlance, is styled " open fingering " is the mode used. When this mode of stopping is used, more than one finger is lifted at a time, and by a sudden pressure upon the bag, the " chanter," as this pipe is called, is made to sound an octave higher, and thus the range of the instrument is extended. Of this extension of range the Northumb! rian pipe does not admit. It is played upon by means of the method called " close fingering" for which it is calculated. This method of stopping allows only of one finger being lifted at a time ; and does not admit of the upper octave being forced by "pinching" or pressure upon the bag. Thus, this instrument is limited to a single octave; and this (little as it is) admits of all the airs, to which it is really suited, being executed by it's means ; with the additional improvement that it may be played perfectly in tune, whilst the tones it produces being all staccato and of a clear, ringing, pearly, and brilliant character, give the instrument a power which it's appearance by no means promises, and which is really suipr^ when L diminutive size of its chanter or melody-pipe is considered. In truth, whilst every other description of bag-pipe is defective, wanting in distinctness, and more or less out of tune in the upper octave, the Northumbrian pipe, when played by a master, executes the airs for which it has been intended to perfection, and with a precision even in the most rapid movements very pleasing as well as surprising. Its defect is the narrow limit within which its merits are confined. It is true that, within the last half century, by means of keys, the range of the instrument has been extended; but to me it is exceedingly doubtful whether this added compass has operated felicitously either upon the instrument or the performer. The peculiar genius of the instrument, which is brilliant and rapid staccato playing, is unfitted for airs of which tenderness and delicacy of expression are the principal attributes. In spite of this, however, that love of novelty which besets the majority of musicians and listeners to music, lures the former to attempt upon this instrument movements utterly unsuited to it. Waltzes in slow time, adagios, and sentimental airs, are thus frequently attempted to be played upon an instrument with the peculiarities of which they are at discord ; and the want of taste of the musician is thus too often made the vilification of that which he has merely misused. To essay to! convey by means of a bagpipe of any description, much more by that of the Northumbrian small pipe, the delicacy of expression which a fine player can produce from the violin, the German flute, the hautboy, or even the clarionet, is a monstrosity in music merely; but to this the additional keys of the instrument have too often led. Discuss! Full text available at http://www.archive.org/details/alettertodukeno00doubgoog Choose your favoured format in the "View the Book" box on the left. Tim On 16 Dec 2010, at 13:53, Richard York wrote: > > The only fitting response to this seems to me to picture the Charlie Brown > cartoons - the image of Charlie with a sort of horizontal but wiggly line for > his mouth - know the one I mean? > > Richard. > > > On 15/12/2010 12:09, Francis Wood wrote: >> On 15 Dec 2010, at 12:05, Gibbons, John wrote: >> >>> But Rob illustrates a simple feather duster - the 17 keyed ones are >>> musically far more versatile... >> Is that a Peacock feather duster? >> >> Francis >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > --
