[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
If it hadn't been for this discussion I wouldn't have gone searching through old cassettes and found the recording I wanted - Joe playing Sliabh na m'bhan at Rock Nab (Ron Purvis's house) at a house session in the early 1980s. Andy learned to play it and is pretty close to the way Joe played it then. I have another cassette tape of 18 tunes which Joe made for me in 1981 to go alongside my 3rd year dissertation at York. I asked him to record something that showed the range of his repertoire. It contains a smattering of Scottish tunes and one or two hornpipes of distinctly Irish origin. There are some unusual offerings including The Queen's Welcome to Invercauld, and My Home (played in A rather than G) - I suspect to prove that nsp can be played in keys other than G and D major. I shall do some serious listening tonight! Margaret -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 09 February 2010 11:20 To: nsp; julia@nspipes.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation) On 6th Feb Julia Say wrote: That's interesting, Margaret. I remember Joe's views on both Irish music in Northumberland, and on Billy Pigg and his playing, from conversations with him in the early 90s, at the Rothbury course, at Alnwick, and from playing bass with him and Will & Will in sessions. As a result I am mildly surprised that he played it. Hello Julia & Margaret, Sorry to be so tardy replying to this. I hope people aren't given the wrong impression about Joe by this posting. I think the distinction has to be made between style and music. People who knew Joe well would be amused by the suggestion that he had something against Irish music per se. True the Irish style was not attractive to him (and others) as it was too fast and flowing and lacking the bounce needed to satisfy a Ranting community. Jigs had similar problems. Having said that, many tunes of Irish origin were very successfully adapted to become well used favourites. Saddle the Pony & Blackthorn Stick to name but two. Hornpipes were the common ground here and Joe played some great Irish ones, Stack of Wheat, Greencastle etc. To be fair the same problems existed with some of the well known Scottish bands. Their reels tended to be "unRantable" and their waltzes and polkas tended to drag as far as Northumbrian dancers were concerned. If Scottish bands couldn't adapt their style to suit they didn't get a return gig! As Jimmy Little said recently, "to really know about our music you have to live amongst it"! As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On 6th Feb Julia Say wrote: That's interesting, Margaret. I remember Joe's views on both Irish music in Northumberland, and on Billy Pigg and his playing, from conversations with him in the early 90s, at the Rothbury course, at Alnwick, and from playing bass with him and Will & Will in sessions. As a result I am mildly surprised that he played it. Hello Julia & Margaret, Sorry to be so tardy replying to this. I hope people aren't given the wrong impression about Joe by this posting. I think the distinction has to be made between style and music. People who knew Joe well would be amused by the suggestion that he had something against Irish music per se. True the Irish style was not attractive to him (and others) as it was too fast and flowing and lacking the bounce needed to satisfy a Ranting community. Jigs had similar problems. Having said that, many tunes of Irish origin were very successfully adapted to become well used favourites. Saddle the Pony & Blackthorn Stick to name but two. Hornpipes were the common ground here and Joe played some great Irish ones, Stack of Wheat, Greencastle etc. To be fair the same problems existed with some of the well known Scottish bands. Their reels tended to be "unRantable" and their waltzes and polkas tended to drag as far as Northumbrian dancers were concerned. If Scottish bands couldn't adapt their style to suit they didn't get a return gig! As Jimmy Little said recently, "to really know about our music you have to live amongst it"! As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
When is the ebook edition coming out? On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 11:23 AM, tim rolls BT wrote: > Julia wrote > > "The one you have was an ephemeral printing only." > > > Does that mean the print will fade away and he'll have to buy one of your > new ones :-0 > > Tim > > - Original Message - From: "Julia Say" > To: "nsp" ; "Dru Brooke-Taylor" > ; "Richard Shuttleworth" > > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 6:21 PM > Subject: [NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation) > > >> On 6 Feb 2010, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: >> >>> How many more books on Billy Pigg can you find to write? (Big grin here) >> >> The existing one (the 1997 book with the biography and interviews in) is >> effectively out of print - there are a few copies left which will be >> available to >> NPS members only. >> The one you have was an ephemeral printing only. >> >> The tunebook-sized volumes currently in production are a re-write of the >> 1997 book, >> with some biography, updated information on Billy's playing style using >> two or >> three of Geoff's transcriptions of common tunes as illustrations, and >> revision >> (where necessary) of the tunes themselves. I've listened to all the tunes >> with a >> far more educated ear than 13 years ago: the 1st edition I was effectively >> ghost- >> writing. >> One will have all Billy's compositions in: the other is a wider selection >> of tunes >> he played. Once that's out, I will have said all I'm intending to on the >> subject. >> Billy was a one-off (there are those who would say thank goodness!), an >> important >> influence on C20 piping and wrote some darn good tunes. >> >>> Gay McKeon This version varies quite a bit from Billy's in the >>> second part but it is certainly the same air. I shall study this. >> >> Gay came and did a concert at the Chantry a few years back and I was most >> impressed. I suspect that like most airs, this one has as many versions as >> there >> are players - and so it should be, in a sense. >> >>> Adrian plays >>> Sliabh na m'Bhan followed by The Iron Man. My liner notes are so old I >>> didn't see the forward slash in the printing >> >> Ah, that explains it. >> >>> Thank you, Julia, for separating my enquiry from the bitter >>> correspondence >>> it seems to have generated. >> >> Not at all...we are both, I believe, founder members of this list, and >> have >> followed it through an assortment of ups and downs. On balance I think >> it's been of >> great use to a large number of people over the years. I believe we first >> "met" on >> the bagpipe list which preceded it, which IIRC drowned in a welter of GHB >> wars >> that make some exchanges on here, recent and not-so-recent, pale into >> insignificance. >> >> Anyway, I like lively debate. >> >> Julia >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > >
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
Julia wrote "The one you have was an ephemeral printing only." Does that mean the print will fade away and he'll have to buy one of your new ones :-0 Tim - Original Message - From: "Julia Say" To: "nsp" ; "Dru Brooke-Taylor" ; "Richard Shuttleworth" Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 6:21 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation) On 6 Feb 2010, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: How many more books on Billy Pigg can you find to write? (Big grin here) The existing one (the 1997 book with the biography and interviews in) is effectively out of print - there are a few copies left which will be available to NPS members only. The one you have was an ephemeral printing only. The tunebook-sized volumes currently in production are a re-write of the 1997 book, with some biography, updated information on Billy's playing style using two or three of Geoff's transcriptions of common tunes as illustrations, and revision (where necessary) of the tunes themselves. I've listened to all the tunes with a far more educated ear than 13 years ago: the 1st edition I was effectively ghost- writing. One will have all Billy's compositions in: the other is a wider selection of tunes he played. Once that's out, I will have said all I'm intending to on the subject. Billy was a one-off (there are those who would say thank goodness!), an important influence on C20 piping and wrote some darn good tunes. Gay McKeon This version varies quite a bit from Billy's in the second part but it is certainly the same air. I shall study this. Gay came and did a concert at the Chantry a few years back and I was most impressed. I suspect that like most airs, this one has as many versions as there are players - and so it should be, in a sense. Adrian plays Sliabh na m'Bhan followed by The Iron Man. My liner notes are so old I didn't see the forward slash in the printing Ah, that explains it. Thank you, Julia, for separating my enquiry from the bitter correspondence it seems to have generated. Not at all...we are both, I believe, founder members of this list, and have followed it through an assortment of ups and downs. On balance I think it's been of great use to a large number of people over the years. I believe we first "met" on the bagpipe list which preceded it, which IIRC drowned in a welter of GHB wars that make some exchanges on here, recent and not-so-recent, pale into insignificance. Anyway, I like lively debate. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Julia Say <[1]julia@nspipes.co.uk> wrote: On balance I think it's been of great use to a large number of people over the years. Sure. And everybody has a bad slow air day once in a while, no big deal. -- References 1. mailto:julia@nspipes.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On 6 Feb 2010, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: > How many more books on Billy Pigg can you find to write? (Big grin here) The existing one (the 1997 book with the biography and interviews in) is effectively out of print - there are a few copies left which will be available to NPS members only. The one you have was an ephemeral printing only. The tunebook-sized volumes currently in production are a re-write of the 1997 book, with some biography, updated information on Billy's playing style using two or three of Geoff's transcriptions of common tunes as illustrations, and revision (where necessary) of the tunes themselves. I've listened to all the tunes with a far more educated ear than 13 years ago: the 1st edition I was effectively ghost- writing. One will have all Billy's compositions in: the other is a wider selection of tunes he played. Once that's out, I will have said all I'm intending to on the subject. Billy was a one-off (there are those who would say thank goodness!), an important influence on C20 piping and wrote some darn good tunes. > Gay McKeon This version varies quite a bit from Billy's in the > second part but it is certainly the same air. I shall study this. Gay came and did a concert at the Chantry a few years back and I was most impressed. I suspect that like most airs, this one has as many versions as there are players - and so it should be, in a sense. > Adrian plays > Sliabh na m'Bhan followed by The Iron Man. My liner notes are so old I > didn't see the forward slash in the printing Ah, that explains it. > Thank you, Julia, for separating my enquiry from the bitter correspondence > it seems to have generated. Not at all...we are both, I believe, founder members of this list, and have followed it through an assortment of ups and downs. On balance I think it's been of great use to a large number of people over the years. I believe we first "met" on the bagpipe list which preceded it, which IIRC drowned in a welter of GHB wars that make some exchanges on here, recent and not-so-recent, pale into insignificance. Anyway, I like lively debate. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
- Original Message - From: "Julia Say" To: "nsp" ; "Dru Brooke-Taylor" ; "Richard Shuttleworth" Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:16 AM Subject: Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation) Julia wrote: I've never met Geoff either, but in the 1960s he was a member of the London pipers who travelled north to hear Billy Pigg amongst others. We have corresponded. In 1990 he kindly presented all his group's transcriptions to the NPS. The book you have, Richard, was a very temporary production for one specific Pipers Gathering. I am currently working on a version of the tune to be included in a book of Billy's repertoire. Thank you for placing Geoff Warren, now I know why I have never met him. How many more books on Billy Pigg can you find to write? (Big grin here) The tune in it may be heard here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le1rntXsDsg played by Gay McKeon who is the CEO of the Uilleann Pipers Society (NPI). So presumably should know. Excellent! Thank you! This version varies quite a bit from Billy's in the second part but it is certainly the same air. I shall study this. Another unaccompanied vocal version that Bart sent me can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or-f3JSJtYA It is interesting to compare the two. Adrian recorded it on his cassette Jane of Biddlestone and called it "Sliabh na mban" but with the English subtitle of The Iron Man and attributed to Scott Skinner. I don't know what happened there, I don't have the tape insert to hand, but Billy played both "The Iron Man" by Scott Skinner, and Sliabh na m'bhan. He may have learnt Sliabh from the Doonans, again I don't know. There are recordings of both, which were correctly identified by Adrian in the collection of material he gave me. This was a mistake on my part, I misread the liner notes. Adrian plays Sliabh na m'Bhan followed by The Iron Man. My liner notes are so old I didn't see the forward slash in the printing and mistook the English for a translation of the Irish. Thank you, Julia, for separating my enquiry from the bitter correspondence it seems to have generated. My apologies to the list for having unwittingly caused this latest spate of nastiness. Cheers, Richard To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
Expect you all know this but http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html will convert his to dots etc. regards simon -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 06 February 2010 10:53 To: nsp Subject: [NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation) On 6 Feb 2010, Margaret Watchorn wrote: > Joe Hutton played this tune in the early 1980s, and that's where I learned > it - his version was basically the same as Gay McKeon's. When I asked him > where he got the tune, he couldn't remember. That's interesting, Margaret. I remember Joe's views on both Irish music in Northumberland, and on Billy Pigg and his playing, from conversations with him in the early 90s, at the Rothbury course, at Alnwick, and from playing bass with him and Will & Will in sessions. As a result I am mildly surprised that he played it. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On 6 Feb 2010, Margaret Watchorn wrote: > Joe Hutton played this tune in the early 1980s, and that's where I learned > it - his version was basically the same as Gay McKeon's. When I asked him > where he got the tune, he couldn't remember. That's interesting, Margaret. I remember Joe's views on both Irish music in Northumberland, and on Billy Pigg and his playing, from conversations with him in the early 90s, at the Rothbury course, at Alnwick, and from playing bass with him and Will & Will in sessions. As a result I am mildly surprised that he played it. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
Joe Hutton played this tune in the early 1980s, and that's where I learned it - his version was basically the same as Gay McKeon's. When I asked him where he got the tune, he couldn't remember. Somewhere I have a poor quality cassette recording of Joe and me playing it at one of the house sessions we used to have in those days. Happy days. Margaret -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On 6 Feb 2010, Julia Say wrote: > In 1990 > he kindly presented whoops, make that 1999. Sorry, typo. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On 5 Feb 2010, Richard Shuttleworth wrote:
> Although the tune on page 44 of book 2 is a really nice tune, it isn't the
> same one that caused my original enquiry.
I think it is a relation but where it came from I have no idea.
>your tune (Slievenamon)
> agrees with a tune identified as "Sliabh na mban" in the Roche Collection of
> Traditional Irish Music, which I have always found to be a pretty authentic
> book.
The*tune* sung on the contentious clip appears to me to be a version of the
song
"Bonny Bunch of Thyme" sung by amongst many others, Ray Fisher. (who a few folk
on
here might be interested to know is coming home for the day, today).
I can't speak for the words on the clip since I don't have the Gaelic about any
part of my person (thanks, Matt!)
>I am working from a version that appears in print in the old Billy
> Pigg's Compositions and a Selection of his other Repertoire that was
> produced some years ago by Adrian, Colin, Julia and G Warren (who I
> unfortunately do not know).
I've never met Geoff either, but in the 1960s he was a member of the London
pipers
who travelled north to hear Billy Pigg amongst others. We have corresponded. In
1990 he kindly presented all his group's transcriptions to the NPS.
The book you have, Richard, was a very temporary production for one specific
Pipers
Gathering. I am currently working on a version of the tune to be included in a
book
of Billy's repertoire.
The tune in it may be heard here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le1rntXsDsg
played by Gay McKeon who is the CEO of the Uilleann Pipers Society (NPI). So
presumably should know.
> Adrian recorded it on his cassette Jane of
> Biddlestone and called it "Sliabh na mban" but with the English subtitle of
> The Iron Man and attributed to Scott Skinner.
I don't know what happened there, I don't have the tape insert to hand, but
Billy
played both "The Iron Man" by Scott Skinner, and Sliabh na m'bhan. He may have
learnt Sliabh from the Doonans, again I don't know. There are recordings of
both, which were correctly identified by Adrian in the collection of material
he
gave me.
I have looked at various abc versions on the web and not found anything
satisfactory. I also identified the two tunes that John Gibbons mentions.
Geoff's transcription relies on irregular barring and the abc of it is thus:
X:8278
T:Slieve Na Mon
S:G. Warren
L:1/8
E:14
K:G
.D .G {cd}.c|B3 A/F/ G3 B/d/|{a}g3 a2 g {fg}f d2 B|\
{cd}c3 (3A/B/c/ {de}d3 (3e/d/c/|{Bd}B G {d}c B {F}A3 {F}G2|G4::\
.d .e .f|{a}g3 d{g}f {ef}e d A {Bd}B3 .d .e .f|{a}g3 d{g}f {ef}e {de}d A|\
{Bd}B3 .D .G {cd}.c|B3 A/F/ G3 B/d/|{a}g3 a2 g {fg}f d2 B|\
{cd}c3 (3A/B/c/ {de}d3 (3e/d/c/|{Bd}B G {d}c B {F}A3 {F}G2|G4:|**
There is no time signature. For those unfamiliar with abc, the bits in curly
brackets are grace notes. Ordinary brackets precede triplets.
abc may be found at www.abcnotation.com. The dialect I use is a complicated one
designed for use with abc2mtex - which is where the backslash and asterisk
symbols
above come from..
I hope all this is of use / interest to someone
Julia
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