[NSP] Re: schei greiss

[Anthony Robb]

   Dave
   I did have one but the wheels fell off.
   Anthony
   --- On Mon, 2/11/09, Dave S  wrote:

 From: Dave S 
 Subject: [NSP] schei greiss
 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 2 November, 2009, 7:23 PM

   Wunnerbar eppes vun dei schei sprooch vun hei ze leiesen
   kriit's d'och schei greiss vun Useldeng
   Dave S
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: schei greiss

[Dave S]

Hi Anthony,

This gives a perfect example,  the letters you know  but not in the 
order that I set them.
You attempted a joke that some may find amusing, probably because your 
imagination could not crack the code. Perhaps this will soften your 
hardline stance on written things, you would have to be in Luxembourg 
for a couple of years to get to grips with its' language, but if you had 
a set of written crib cards it would be possible for you to start on the 
language from the comfort of your home.
Now, to address your standpoint on dots, we need audio clues to help us 
try to imitate the sounds and eventually they stick in the audio 
soundbank. I do so agree, but not to the extent that you propose. Modern 
(new research) concert instrumentalists, starting as children now learn 
their instrument by ear for the first few years, when they have learnt 
the instrument and some of its' possibilities, they are introduced to 
the dots and in so doing create a happy medium and a happy player.
In recent mails Tom Clough was reported to have said that Thomas Todd 
forbade him playing the melodyof the Barrington, he had first to learn 
the exercises (Julia; are there any random exercises kicking about?) -- 
some of us need the dots to see the exercises as we can't get to learn 
from an expert, there are not enough to go round. You know from your 
experience that it takes a lot of time to imprint a melody into the 
audiobank(brain). The older you get the longer it can take, some are 
lucky in that they already have enough to go on  and merely refresh old 
memories, I envy  their good fortune.
We need the dots as memory helpers, us mortals wot don't concert or barn 
dance etc.
We know we are mortals, so don't knock what you don't have the 
background to comprehend, you had it all around you all your life, us 
out here ain't got it and probably won't get it. I will try to be like 
the Philharmonic, they know their instrument, they have practiced, and 
they use their music for clues and memory assists, but they all play the 
conductors interpretation of the piece, emotion, speed, warts and all. I 
am still trying to learn about my pipes but for me it is a slow, 
fascinating process I hope will never end. I love them --- and without 
NSP dots I would be playing Boismortier, Corrette, Lullay, Rameau, 
Zweitackters, alouette, Himmelsmaerch, Mozart, etc etc



Tra 4 now ( confirmed dots supporter)

Dave S   (
Anthony Robb wrote:

Dave
I did have one but the wheels fell off.
Anthony

--- On *Mon, 2/11/09, Dave S //* wrote:


From: Dave S 
Subject: [NSP] schei greiss
To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 2 November, 2009, 7:23 PM

Wunnerbar eppes vun déi schéi sprooch vun hei ze léiesen
kriit's d'och schéi greiss vun Useldéng

Dave S



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html





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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
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[NSP] Re: schei greiss

[Gibbons, John]

I know some people who refuse to play by ear, and always get the dots out - I 
find that often makes performances slower and more wooden. 
Many use the dots to learn new tunes, and to refresh their memories. 
Some are literate, but prefer to learn a tune by ear, to 'feel' it better.
Some are excellent ear players, but never use dots - some of these because they 
cannot.

The idea that the excellent ear-playing musicians who have existed in many 
tradition are that good *because they were illiterate* seems to be 
overstretching the evidence. But this seems to be what Anthony is arguing. 
It may just be rather that ear-players listen more?
This has been known to help

John



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Dave S
Sent: 03 November 2009 12:13
To: Anthony Robb; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss

Hi Anthony,

This gives a perfect example,  the letters you know  but not in the 
order that I set them.
You attempted a joke that some may find amusing, probably because your 
imagination could not crack the code. Perhaps this will soften your 
hardline stance on written things, you would have to be in Luxembourg 
for a couple of years to get to grips with its' language, but if you had 
a set of written crib cards it would be possible for you to start on the 
language from the comfort of your home.
Now, to address your standpoint on dots, we need audio clues to help us 
try to imitate the sounds and eventually they stick in the audio 
soundbank. I do so agree, but not to the extent that you propose. Modern 
(new research) concert instrumentalists, starting as children now learn 
their instrument by ear for the first few years, when they have learnt 
the instrument and some of its' possibilities, they are introduced to 
the dots and in so doing create a happy medium and a happy player.
In recent mails Tom Clough was reported to have said that Thomas Todd 
forbade him playing the melodyof the Barrington, he had first to learn 
the exercises (Julia; are there any random exercises kicking about?) -- 
some of us need the dots to see the exercises as we can't get to learn 
from an expert, there are not enough to go round. You know from your 
experience that it takes a lot of time to imprint a melody into the 
audiobank(brain). The older you get the longer it can take, some are 
lucky in that they already have enough to go on  and merely refresh old 
memories, I envy  their good fortune.
We need the dots as memory helpers, us mortals wot don't concert or barn 
dance etc.
We know we are mortals, so don't knock what you don't have the 
background to comprehend, you had it all around you all your life, us 
out here ain't got it and probably won't get it. I will try to be like 
the Philharmonic, they know their instrument, they have practiced, and 
they use their music for clues and memory assists, but they all play the 
conductors interpretation of the piece, emotion, speed, warts and all. I 
am still trying to learn about my pipes but for me it is a slow, 
fascinating process I hope will never end. I love them --- and without 
NSP dots I would be playing Boismortier, Corrette, Lullay, Rameau, 
Zweitackters, alouette, Himmelsmaerch, Mozart, etc etc

 
Tra 4 now ( confirmed dots supporter)

Dave S   (
Anthony Robb wrote:
> Dave
> I did have one but the wheels fell off.
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Mon, 2/11/09, Dave S //* wrote:
>
>
> From: Dave S 
> Subject: [NSP] schei greiss
> To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Date: Monday, 2 November, 2009, 7:23 PM
>
> Wunnerbar eppes vun déi schéi sprooch vun hei ze léiesen
> kriit's d'och schéi greiss vun Useldéng
>
> Dave S
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html>
>
> 
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.5.424 / Virus Database: 270.14.45/2476 - Release Date: 11/02/09 
> 07:51:00
>
>   

[NSP] Re: schei greiss

[Anthony Robb]

   Not at all what I was saying John. They were good not "because they
   were illiterate" but because they had no option but to listen and get
   the feel for the tunes they were in their heads before their fingers
   tried them out. That is my point.
   Dave, I dont know a single teacher in any of the Folk situations these
   days who doesn't use dots but I have heard tunes emasculated many times
   because excellent sight-readers played them as written. Not only that
   but some people from a dots background are now telling the likes of
   Jimmy Little that his is not playing the tune properly! Recently a
   visiting piper to the area insisted to one of my Caedmon players that
   he had the wrong interpretation of a certain tune (recently taught at
   my Caedmon classes), the tune in question was written by Alistair
   Anderson who, when he heard me play it, smiled and complimented me on
   the feel I had for it. It's when dots give people the idea that
   they can "correct" the playing of those immersed in the music that I
   gert hot under the collar!
   These days it has never been easier to learn by listening to recordings
   of traditional players. But people are reluctant to give the time
   needed to get the tune off with any of the original feel. They want to
   get tunes "under the belt" and tick them off a bit like "Munroe
   Baggers" do with high Scottish hills.
   When dots players can look at at jig bar at see a three quaver group
   written in the relationship ratio 1:1:1 and instinctively feel the
   following ratio possibilities, 3:1:2,  8:6:7, 6:4:5,  5:3:4, 4:2:3  or
   11:5:8 I'll stop banging on about the dangers of dots!!
   As aye
   Anthony
   PS Just a little background on Margaret W from way back - she is
   blessed with the most amazing ear for tunes yet she is also a highly
   accomplished trained player (a vague memory of an Organ Scholarship to
   York comes to mind). I am not saying the two gifts are incompatible.
   I'm saying we have to be very careful of the ration between eye & lug
   when it comes to our music; about 1:9 might do the trick!

   --- On Tue, 3/11/09, Gibbons, John  wrote:

 From: Gibbons, John 
 Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss
 To: "'Dave S'" , "Anthony Robb"
 , "nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu"
 
 Date: Tuesday, 3 November, 2009, 2:07 PM

   I know some people who refuse to play by ear, and always get the dots
   out - I find that often makes performances slower and more wooden.
   Many use the dots to learn new tunes, and to refresh their memories.
   Some are literate, but prefer to learn a tune by ear, to 'feel' it
   better.
   Some are excellent ear players, but never use dots - some of these
   because they cannot.
   The idea that the excellent ear-playing musicians who have existed in
   many tradition are that good *because they were illiterate* seems to be
   overstretching the evidence. But this seems to be what Anthony is
   arguing.
   It may just be rather that ear-players listen more?
   This has been known to help
   John
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Dave S
   Sent: 03 November 2009 12:13
   To: Anthony Robb; [3]...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss
   Hi Anthony,
   This gives a perfect example,  the letters you know  but not in the
   order that I set them.
   You attempted a joke that some may find amusing, probably because your
   imagination could not crack the code. Perhaps this will soften your
   hardline stance on written things, you would have to be in Luxembourg
   for a couple of years to get to grips with its' language, but if you
   had
   a set of written crib cards it would be possible for you to start on
   the
   language from the comfort of your home.
   Now, to address your standpoint on dots, we need audio clues to help us
   try to imitate the sounds and eventually they stick in the audio
   soundbank. I do so agree, but not to the extent that you propose.
   Modern
   (new research) concert instrumentalists, starting as children now learn
   their instrument by ear for the first few years, when they have learnt
   the instrument and some of its' possibilities, they are introduced to
   the dots and in so doing create a happy medium and a happy player.
   In recent mails Tom Clough was reported to have said that Thomas Todd
   forbade him playing the melodyof the Barrington, he had first to learn
   the exercises (Julia; are there any random exercises kicking about?) --
   some of us need the dots to see the exercises as we can't get to learn
   from an expert, there are not enough to go round. You know from your
   experience that it takes a lot of time to imprint a melody into the
   audiobank(brain). The older you get the longer it can take, some are
   luc

[NSP] Re: schei greiss

[Christopher.Birch]

 Modern 
>(new research) concert instrumentalists, starting as children 
>now learn 
>their instrument by ear for the first few years, when they have learnt 
>the instrument and some of its' possibilities, they are introduced to 
>the dots and in so doing create a happy medium and a happy player.


This is unfortunately not the approach adopted by the Luxembourg conservatoires 
(based on the French system), where kids and adults alike are obliged to do two 
years of "solfège" (music theory) before they can touch an instrument.

An exception introduced around the mid 90s (too late for my older children but 
in time for the youngest) is for violin, where the kids can learn to read the 
dots in parallel to learning the instrument). This is what my older kids did 
too, but I had to send them to a private teacher for this to be possible.

"Solfège" is a horribly abstract approach to music. My older kids could read 
music perfectly well before I transferred them from private teachers to the 
Conservatoire, but they still had difficulties with the compulsory "solfège". 
"Wat soll dat" (= What the hell is all this blahblahblah about?).

Bit off-topic I suppose.

Maat et gudd mais net ze dacks!

c



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[NSP] Re: schei greiss

[GibbonsSoinne]

   Maybe we should sort out the more literal dot-readers with more
   accurate notation.

   Notereader makes Hornpipes sound fairly good in 21/16, with dotted and
   undotted quavers alternating.

   12/8 is too jiggy, straight quavers have no pulse,

   and normal 'dotted 4/4' is lumpier than school custard was.



   Stuart's ideas on how jigs sound and should be played are more complex
   yet.



   A revised edition of the tunebook, Julia??



   John

   --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: schei greiss

[Matt Seattle]

 "Notereader makes Hornpipes sound fairly good in 21/16, with dotted
   and
 undotted quavers alternating."

   Do you mean 20/16, John?

   Any system of notation relies on a culture which knows how that
   particular music is played, just as any written language relies on
   people knowing how to pronounce it (greiss / grace etc.). The problems
   Anthony highlights are well known - use dots if you know how the music
   sounds, otherwise they are a hindrance.

   Ancedote, half-remembered: an arranger scored out a trumpet part for
   Miles Davis with a serious attempt at imitating what he understood of
   the nuanced rubato of Miles' phrasing - Miles said, I can't read this,
   man, write it straight, I'll phrase it.

   --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: schei greiss

[Alan Corkett]

Dear Those concerned

I hope at some stage, someone will explain to me what all this code breaking
"shy grice" is about

Alan Corkett
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]on
Behalf Of Matt Seattle
Sent: 04 November 2009 11:24
To: gibbonssoi...@aol.com
Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss



 "Notereader makes Hornpipes sound fairly good in 21/16, with dotted
   and
 undotted quavers alternating."

   Do you mean 20/16, John?

   Any system of notation relies on a culture which knows how that
   particular music is played, just as any written language relies on
   people knowing how to pronounce it (greiss / grace etc.). The problems
   Anthony highlights are well known - use dots if you know how the music
   sounds, otherwise they are a hindrance.

   Ancedote, half-remembered: an arranger scored out a trumpet part for
   Miles Davis with a serious attempt at imitating what he understood of
   the nuanced rubato of Miles' phrasing - Miles said, I can't read this,
   man, write it straight, I'll phrase it.

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: schei greiss

[Christopher.Birch]

Sorry, this should be "shay grice" and indeed Dave should have used an acute 
accent on the "e" in both words - schéi gréiss.
It's Luxembourgish for ­­- literally - "beautiful greetings", corresponding to 
the German "schöne Grüsse". Yes, the dots and strokes do matter for the correct 
pronunciation.
Totally off-topic, I know, but I can explain for anyone interested that 
"lëtzebuergesch" is the language spoken in Luxembourg. French is used for 
administrative purposes and some (or parts) of the newspapers are in German. A 
lot of Burgers don't feel confident about writing the language, as it is not 
taught properly in the schools, so they tend to write in French or Germany - 
even if they would speak letzeboiesh (as it is pronounced) with their 
correspondents etc. Giving a luxembourger a writing implement is the most 
successful form of machine-translation to date.

C

PS It's not quite "Grace" as the "r" is uvular as in French and some varieties 
of Geordie and Irish English (e.g. as spoken by my ex-mother-in-law).
Ceci dit, retournons à nos moutons.

c


>-Original Message-
>From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Corkett
>Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 12:44 PM
>To: Matt Seattle; gibbonssoi...@aol.com
>Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss
>
>Dear Those concerned
>
>I hope at some stage, someone will explain to me what all this 
>code breaking
>"shy grice" is about
>
>Alan Corkett
>-Original Message-
>From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]on
>Behalf Of Matt Seattle
>Sent: 04 November 2009 11:24
>To: gibbonssoi...@aol.com
>Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss
>
>
>
> "Notereader makes Hornpipes sound fairly good in 21/16, 
>with dotted
>   and
> undotted quavers alternating."
>
>   Do you mean 20/16, John?
>
>   Any system of notation relies on a culture which knows how that
>   particular music is played, just as any written language relies on
>   people knowing how to pronounce it (greiss / grace etc.). 
>The problems
>   Anthony highlights are well known - use dots if you know 
>how the music
>   sounds, otherwise they are a hindrance.
>
>   Ancedote, half-remembered: an arranger scored out a trumpet part for
>   Miles Davis with a serious attempt at imitating what he 
>understood of
>   the nuanced rubato of Miles' phrasing - Miles said, I can't 
>read this,
>   man, write it straight, I'll phrase it.
>
>   --
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[NSP] Re: schei greiss

[Christopher.Birch]

Oops, deed mer leed nach eng kéier, it should have been "shay grace" not 
"grice".
Grease is not the word.
c 

>-Original Message-
>From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
>christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu
>Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 12:57 PM
>To: a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk; 
>theborderpi...@googlemail.com; gibbonssoi...@aol.com
>Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss
>
>Sorry, this should be "shay grice" and indeed Dave should have 
>used an acute accent on the "e" in both words - schéi gréiss.
>It's Luxembourgish for ­­- literally - "beautiful greetings", 
>corresponding to the German "schöne Grüsse". Yes, the dots and 
>strokes do matter for the correct pronunciation.
>Totally off-topic, I know, but I can explain for anyone 
>interested that "lëtzebuergesch" is the language spoken in 
>Luxembourg. French is used for administrative purposes and 
>some (or parts) of the newspapers are in German. A lot of 
>Burgers don't feel confident about writing the language, as it 
>is not taught properly in the schools, so they tend to write 
>in French or Germany - even if they would speak letzeboiesh 
>(as it is pronounced) with their correspondents etc. Giving a 
>luxembourger a writing implement is the most successful form 
>of machine-translation to date.
>
>C
>
>PS It's not quite "Grace" as the "r" is uvular as in French 
>and some varieties of Geordie and Irish English (e.g. as 
>spoken by my ex-mother-in-law).
>Ceci dit, retournons à nos moutons.
>
>c
>
>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>>[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Corkett
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 12:44 PM
>>To: Matt Seattle; gibbonssoi...@aol.com
>>Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss
>>
>>Dear Those concerned
>>
>>I hope at some stage, someone will explain to me what all this 
>>code breaking
>>"shy grice" is about
>>
>>Alan Corkett
>>-Original Message-
>>From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]on
>>Behalf Of Matt Seattle
>>Sent: 04 November 2009 11:24
>>To: gibbonssoi...@aol.com
>>Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss
>>
>>
>>
>> "Notereader makes Hornpipes sound fairly good in 21/16, 
>>with dotted
>>   and
>> undotted quavers alternating."
>>
>>   Do you mean 20/16, John?
>>
>>   Any system of notation relies on a culture which knows how that
>>   particular music is played, just as any written language relies on
>>   people knowing how to pronounce it (greiss / grace etc.). 
>>The problems
>>   Anthony highlights are well known - use dots if you know 
>>how the music
>>   sounds, otherwise they are a hindrance.
>>
>>   Ancedote, half-remembered: an arranger scored out a 
>trumpet part for
>>   Miles Davis with a serious attempt at imitating what he 
>>understood of
>>   the nuanced rubato of Miles' phrasing - Miles said, I can't 
>>read this,
>>   man, write it straight, I'll phrase it.
>>
>>   --
>>
>>
>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[NSP] Re: schei greiss

[Gibbons, John]

Everyone knows mathematicians can't do arithmetic!
But I'll pretend it was a typo...

John 

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Matt Seattle
Sent: 04 November 2009 11:24
To: gibbonssoi...@aol.com
Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss

 "Notereader makes Hornpipes sound fairly good in 21/16, with dotted
   and
 undotted quavers alternating."

   Do you mean 20/16, John?

   Any system of notation relies on a culture which knows how that
   particular music is played, just as any written language relies on
   people knowing how to pronounce it (greiss / grace etc.). The problems
   Anthony highlights are well known - use dots if you know how the music
   sounds, otherwise they are a hindrance.

   Ancedote, half-remembered: an arranger scored out a trumpet part for
   Miles Davis with a serious attempt at imitating what he understood of
   the nuanced rubato of Miles' phrasing - Miles said, I can't read this,
   man, write it straight, I'll phrase it.

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: schei greiss

[Anthony Robb]

   Just in case anyone might think I'm the clever so-and-so who came up
   with those complex jig patterns quoted in a previous submission, I have
   to say I lifted them from Stewart Hardy's book "Secrets of Jigs"
   ([1]mu...@kirkhousepublishing.com) an excellent publication with highly
   detailed and accurate instructional CD. The illustrations Stewart chose
   for the timings were, however, taken from a tune he wrote for me, "Dr
   Robb's Dancing Feet". He claims that I use some of those
   ratios intuitively in my playing. I thank him for the tune and his
   analysis of traditional styles. The book is, naturally, written from a
   fiddling perspective but there's quite a lot there for pipers to take
   on board too.
   As aye
   Anthony
   --- On Wed, 4/11/09, gibbonssoi...@aol.com 
   wrote:

 From: gibbonssoi...@aol.com 
 Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: schei greiss
 To: anth...@robbpipes.com, david...@pt.lu, nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu,
 j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk
 Date: Wednesday, 4 November, 2009, 10:42 AM

   Maybe we should sort out the more literal dot-readers with more
   accurate notation.
   Notereader makes Hornpipes sound fairly good in 21/16, with dotted and
   undotted quavers alternating.
   12/8 is too jiggy, straight quavers have no pulse,
   and normal 'dotted 4/4' is lumpier than school custard was.

   Stuart's ideas on how jigs sound and should be played are more complex
   yet.

   A revised edition of the tunebook, Julia??

   John

   --

References

   1. mailto:mu...@kirkhousepublishing.com


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