[NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note
And that, I think, sums up the whole debate in a most concise manner. 'nuff said. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 7:21 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note > As most people have already said, the written note is most useful, does show > the pitch of the note and its duration, and is one of the best ways of > preserving compositions for future generations. However so much more is not > conveyed.I know that the discussion is mainly related to folk music and NSP in > particular, nevertheless I would like to quote an example which I feel is > pertinent. Recently, 12 good pianists gave an informal recital of the > preludes and fugues from the "Well-tempered Klavier" by J.S. Bach. During 9 of the > pieces the audience was yawning, looking at their watch and staring out of > the window - bored stiff, anxious to get to lunch and longing for the program > to finish !But when 3 of the pianists were performing, Bach suddenly > came alive. It was the most wonderful music we had ever heard! Everyone's > attention was rivetted to these beautiful sounds, interesting inner voices and > exciting interplay of partsIt really brought home to the audience how much > is needed in addition to "just playing the written notes". > > Of course, how to develop this skill is another matter. > > Sheila > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note
As most people have already said, the written note is most useful, does show the pitch of the note and its duration, and is one of the best ways of preserving compositions for future generations. However so much more is not conveyed.I know that the discussion is mainly related to folk music and NSP in particular, nevertheless I would like to quote an example which I feel is pertinent. Recently, 12 good pianists gave an informal recital of the preludes and fugues from the "Well-tempered Klavier" by J.S. Bach. During 9 of the pieces the audience was yawning, looking at their watch and staring out of the window - bored stiff, anxious to get to lunch and longing for the program to finish !But when 3 of the pianists were performing, Bach suddenly came alive. It was the most wonderful music we had ever heard! Everyone's attention was rivetted to these beautiful sounds, interesting inner voices and exciting interplay of partsIt really brought home to the audience how much is needed in addition to "just playing the written notes". Of course, how to develop this skill is another matter. Sheila -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note
I'll be retired first ... Oh happy day. chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note
On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 12:03 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > holding a > note just that tiniest fraction longer or shorter than would be > written. > > These, together with attack, are in my view among the most basic > elements of style and illustrate how, in many ways, style is > inseparable from technique. I'm mainly a string player and these > things really boil down to how to use the bow. I'm sure everyone who > has attempted to teach a string instrument will have come across the > "i'll worry about those details when I can play better" attitude from > otherwise intelligent pupils who fail to realise (or refuse to > believe) that concerning yourself with such "details" is how you get > to play better in the first place. With the brass and wind, the > equivalent is how to use the tongue, lips and breath. On nsp it > probably boils down simply to how short or long the notes are (and of > course in 99.9% or more of cases, notes on nsp sound better separated > - which is what "staccatto" means (it doesn't mean "short")) and > whether slides or gracenotes are used (I confess to being quite fond > of the odd choyte here and there.) Which is exactly why my recorder teacher is very fussy about phrasing, articulation and appropriate ornamentation, as once you've got the idea of playing the right notes in tune out of the way, it's how you turn your performance from dull to good to excellent. And, at least with me, she's doing the ornamentation thing at the same time as trying to get me to play in tune consistently. The details are important on any instrument, and this is probably a big reason why it can be very hard to learn to play well without a teacher. > translating something from one language into another, and wondered if > other > people have had a similar struggle. > > As a professional translator, I can assure you that the correspondence > between music and the notation that has developed for representing it > visually on a more or less one-to-one basis is much closer than the > correspondence between any two languages. Languages are, after all, > not code forms of each other - which is one of the reasons why we > translators still haven't been put out of a job by computers. I can > attest to the struggle though. Oops, way off topic!!! That doesn't mean we computer scientists aren't getting closer to putting you out of a job though... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 November 2006 09:18 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note The written notes identify a piece. By "nuances" i expect hilary means aspects of style (though in French "les nuances" means "dynamics" - loud and soft, crescendo-diminuendo etc.). Style - i.e. phrasing, articulation etc. - is tradition. It can be conveyed by a teacher and/or absorbed from careful listening. "Classical" music is as much a tradition as any other genre. The top young students have often acquired a solid and complete technique from their "anonymous" teachers before they go near a big name to study the finer points of interpretation. In Hilary's specific case, it would be interesting to see what she had written and to compare it with how she plays the same pieces. I don't think one can generalise about how to put a maximum of music into the notes on the page. The older the music, the fewer the markings - presumably because people weren't exposed to a wide variety of styles as they are today (transport, communications). The addition of markings reached an extreme with webern, who put dynamics over rests (go figure). The following delight may be new to some of you: http://www.well.com/user/bryan/waltz.html chirs -Original Message- From: Hilary de Vries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 10:41 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] the vagaries of the written note With the topic drifting into the area of written music, I'd like to ask to see if other people have had the same experience as me with regards to writing music down. Before starting to compose myself, I took written music pretty much as gospel (probably encouraged by learning Highland chanter where it all felt very spelt out). Then when I tried to write my tunes down, I discovered that it was far from an exact science. I felt like I was squeezing them into some kind of musical corset: the overall shape was okay, but somehow the nuances had been flattened out. The fact that some of my tunes don't have a regular time signature hasn't made the process any easier. I've sort of accepted the limitations of the written note, but not without a struggle, and the fight's not over yet. I wonder what other people's experiences have been, and if similar battles have been fought. Or if, unlike me, you've found ways to get your tune over without feeling compromised. If so, I'd love to know how! I look forward to your replies! Hilary -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ NOD32 1.1856 (20061106) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
[NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note
Ah, I now know where I've been going wrong- if Chris' example is right, I haven't been inserting enough peanuts!! (although I draw the line at penguins) By nuances I mean more the phrasing and the length of notes, i.e. holding a note just that tiniest fraction longer or shorter than would be written. Variance in volume has never been an option with the instruments I've played, so has never been something I've put in the music. I just find that taking the played note and writing it down is like translating something from one language into another, and wondered if other people have had a similar struggle. Hilary -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 November 2006 09:18 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note The written notes identify a piece. By "nuances" i expect hilary means aspects of style (though in French "les nuances" means "dynamics" - loud and soft, crescendo-diminuendo etc.). Style - i.e. phrasing, articulation etc. - is tradition. It can be conveyed by a teacher and/or absorbed from careful listening. "Classical" music is as much a tradition as any other genre. The top young students have often acquired a solid and complete technique from their "anonymous" teachers before they go near a big name to study the finer points of interpretation. In Hilary's specific case, it would be interesting to see what she had written and to compare it with how she plays the same pieces. I don't think one can generalise about how to put a maximum of music into the notes on the page. The older the music, the fewer the markings - presumably because people weren't exposed to a wide variety of styles as they are today (transport, communications). The addition of markings reached an extreme with webern, who put dynamics over rests (go figure). The following delight may be new to some of you: http://www.well.com/user/bryan/waltz.html chirs -Original Message- From: Hilary de Vries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 10:41 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] the vagaries of the written note With the topic drifting into the area of written music, I'd like to ask to see if other people have had the same experience as me with regards to writing music down. Before starting to compose myself, I took written music pretty much as gospel (probably encouraged by learning Highland chanter where it all felt very spelt out). Then when I tried to write my tunes down, I discovered that it was far from an exact science. I felt like I was squeezing them into some kind of musical corset: the overall shape was okay, but somehow the nuances had been flattened out. The fact that some of my tunes don't have a regular time signature hasn't made the process any easier. I've sort of accepted the limitations of the written note, but not without a struggle, and the fight's not over yet. I wonder what other people's experiences have been, and if similar battles have been fought. Or if, unlike me, you've found ways to get your tune over without feeling compromised. If so, I'd love to know how! I look forward to your replies! Hilary -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ NOD32 1.1856 (20061106) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
[NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note
The written notes identify a piece. By "nuances" i expect hilary means aspects of style (though in French "les nuances" means "dynamics" - loud and soft, crescendo-diminuendo etc.). Style - i.e. phrasing, articulation etc. - is tradition. It can be conveyed by a teacher and/or absorbed from careful listening. "Classical" music is as much a tradition as any other genre. The top young students have often acquired a solid and complete technique from their "anonymous" teachers before they go near a big name to study the finer points of interpretation. In Hilary's specific case, it would be interesting to see what she had written and to compare it with how she plays the same pieces. I don't think one can generalise about how to put a maximum of music into the notes on the page. The older the music, the fewer the markings - presumably because people weren't exposed to a wide variety of styles as they are today (transport, communications). The addition of markings reached an extreme with webern, who put dynamics over rests (go figure). The following delight may be new to some of you: http://www.well.com/user/bryan/waltz.html chirs -Original Message- From: Hilary de Vries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 10:41 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] the vagaries of the written note With the topic drifting into the area of written music, I'd like to ask to see if other people have had the same experience as me with regards to writing music down. Before starting to compose myself, I took written music pretty much as gospel (probably encouraged by learning Highland chanter where it all felt very spelt out). Then when I tried to write my tunes down, I discovered that it was far from an exact science. I felt like I was squeezing them into some kind of musical corset: the overall shape was okay, but somehow the nuances had been flattened out. The fact that some of my tunes don't have a regular time signature hasn't made the process any easier. I've sort of accepted the limitations of the written note, but not without a struggle, and the fight's not over yet. I wonder what other people's experiences have been, and if similar battles have been fought. Or if, unlike me, you've found ways to get your tune over without feeling compromised. If so, I'd love to know how! I look forward to your replies! Hilary -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note
On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 21:41 +, Hilary de Vries wrote: > Before starting to compose myself, I took written music pretty much as > gospel (probably encouraged by learning Highland chanter where it all felt > very spelt out). Then when I tried to write my tunes down, I discovered > that it was far from an exact science. I felt like I was squeezing them > into some kind of musical corset: the overall shape was okay, but somehow > the nuances had been flattened out. The fact that some of my tunes don't > have a regular time signature hasn't made the process any easier. I've sort > of accepted the limitations of the written note, but not without a struggle, > and the fight's not over yet. > > > > I wonder what other people's experiences have been, and if similar battles > have been fought. Or if, unlike me, you've found ways to get your tune over > without feeling compromised. If so, I'd love to know how! Well I'm not an NSP player (yet) - I'm a recorder player, and my training's based on playing from the dots. My ability to play by ear is fairly awful, although it's a skill I'd like to work on - of course, renaissance consort music is a little different to traditional tunes for the NSP. However, even though we're always playing tunes and dances and fantasies and other music from scores and parts, my teacher always emphasises that the music as written provides only a broad outline of what one should play. There are many subtleties of phrasing, interpretation and style which simply aren't in the notation - especially in older music where the composers wouldn't include half as many stylistic markings as you find in more recent pieces. So although I play from dots, I'm very aware that the dots are not the be all and end all, and attempt to interpret the music based on my knowledge of the period and style in which it was written. Most of that knowledge is still supplied by my teacher, but I'm learning gradually. My teacher also has a habit of improvising ornamentation. Sometimes she marks it into my parts, but I mostly get the impression at the moment that this is something she does that she doesn't particularly feel I need to do yet. It is, I must admit, a skill I would like to have, but I suspect my 'feel' for the music isn't up to scratch yet. Perhaps if I'd started learning from the principle of playing by ear, things would be a little different. Overall though, the vast majority of recorder players are play-from-dots people, and so when you go and play in a group, if you can't read your part and play it reasonably well at sight, you're not likely to keep up. So written music is a guide, a broad outline of what was intended, not the full details or gospel setting of how it must be. Certain things can't be changed without destroying the piece, but what those are depends on what the piece itself is. I hope that made some sense. Personally, I envy people who can play well by ear and it's a skill I'd love to have - but I wouldn't want to have it instead of being able to read music, largely because of the customary usage of written music among recorder players. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
