Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: ntg-context Im Auftrag von Pablo
> Rodriguez via ntg-context
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Oktober 2022 20:02
> An: Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
> Cc: Pablo Rodriguez
> Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
>
> Hans added hyphenmin some time ago:
>
> \setuplanguage[de][lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=3, hyphenmin=6]
> \setuplanguage[deo][lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=3, hyphenmin=5]
> \mainlanguage[de]
> \starttext
> \startTEXpage[offset=1em]
> \hyphenatedword{davon}
> \deo\hyphenatedword{davon}
> \stopTEXpage
> \stoptext
>
> It is technically on the wiki, but it lacks proper “wikification”.
I just wanted to add it to the hyphenation page on the wiki, but I've seen that
you have just added it a couple of days ago. Thanks!
Denis
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Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
On 10/19/22 16:47, Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context wrote:
>> [...]
>> Many prefixes have two letters, so changing the default may be
>> reasonable. But there are more experienced German typographers on
>> this list who can chime in.
>
> After some research, I found the recommendation in
> Forssman, de Jong: Detailtypografie (4. Aufl, 2008, S. 124f.) to
> use 2/3 for German justified texts, and 3/4 to 5/5 for ragged text.
> They also recommend to never hyphenate words with 5 letters, not sure
> that can be encoded.
Hi Leah,
Hans added hyphenmin some time ago:
\setuplanguage[de][lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=3, hyphenmin=6]
\setuplanguage[deo][lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=3, hyphenmin=5]
\mainlanguage[de]
\starttext
\startTEXpage[offset=1em]
\hyphenatedword{davon}
\deo\hyphenatedword{davon}
\stopTEXpage
\stoptext
It is technically on the wiki, but it lacks proper “wikification”.
I hope it helps,
Pablo
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Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context writes:
> Max Chernoff via ntg-context writes:
>
>> Hi Leah,
>>
>>> I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered
>>> the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this
>>> down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer:
>>>
>>> \starttext
>>> \language[de]
>>> \showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
>>> \showhyphens{anderswo}
>>> \showhyphens{anderswoher}
>>> \stoptext
>>>
>>> This shows
>>> languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang
>>> languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo
>>> languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her
>>
>> Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to
>> 3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I
>> have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in
>> ConTeXt with:
>
> Perfect, thanks!
>
> Many prefixes have two letters, so changing the default may be
> reasonable. But there are more experienced German typographers on
> this list who can chime in.
After some research, I found the recommendation in
Forssman, de Jong: Detailtypografie (4. Aufl, 2008, S. 124f.) to
use 2/3 for German justified texts, and 3/4 to 5/5 for ragged text.
They also recommend to never hyphenate words with 5 letters, not sure
that can be encoded.
--
Leah Neukirchenhttps://leahneukirchen.org
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Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 06:49:23AM +0200, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote: > Thank you, Leah, Max and Wolfgang! I changed that immediately in all of my > ongoing projects, but I don’t think we should change the default after all > these years. Are you sure that the default in ConTeXt has *not* changed in all these years? :-) Arthur ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Am 29.09.22 um 08:27 schrieb Arthur Rosendahl: On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 06:49:23AM +0200, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote: Thank you, Leah, Max and Wolfgang! I changed that immediately in all of my ongoing projects, but I don’t think we should change the default after all these years. Are you sure that the default in ConTeXt has *not* changed in all these years? :-) jag vet inte Hraban ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Am 29.09.22 um 06:10 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context: Max Chernoff via ntg-context schrieb am 29.09.2022 um 02:17: Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to 3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in ConTeXt with: \mainlanguage[de] \lefthyphenmin=2 \righthyphenmin=2 You can use \setuplanguage to change the values. \setuplanguage [de] [ lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=2] Thank you, Leah, Max and Wolfgang! I changed that immediately in all of my ongoing projects, but I don’t think we should change the default after all these years. published: https://literatur.social/@fiee/109079837141552277 Hraban ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Max Chernoff via ntg-context schrieb am 29.09.2022 um 02:17:
Hi Leah,
I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered
the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this
down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer:
\starttext
\language[de]
\showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
\showhyphens{anderswo}
\showhyphens{anderswoher}
\stoptext
This shows
languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang
languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo
languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her
Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to
3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I
have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in
ConTeXt with:
\mainlanguage[de]
\lefthyphenmin=2
\righthyphenmin=2
You can use \setuplanguage to change the values.
\setuplanguage
[de]
[ lefthyphenmin=2,
righthyphenmin=2]
Wolfgang
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Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Max Chernoff via ntg-context writes:
> Hi Leah,
>
>> I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered
>> the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this
>> down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer:
>>
>> \starttext
>> \language[de]
>> \showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
>> \showhyphens{anderswo}
>> \showhyphens{anderswoher}
>> \stoptext
>>
>> This shows
>> languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang
>> languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo
>> languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her
>
> Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to
> 3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I
> have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in
> ConTeXt with:
Perfect, thanks!
Many prefixes have two letters, so changing the default may be
reasonable. But there are more experienced German typographers on
this list who can chime in.
--
Leah Neukirchenhttps://leahneukirchen.org
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Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Hi Leah,
> I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered
> the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this
> down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer:
>
> \starttext
> \language[de]
> \showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
> \showhyphens{anderswo}
> \showhyphens{anderswoher}
> \stoptext
>
> This shows
> languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang
> languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo
> languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her
Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to
3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I
have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in
ConTeXt with:
\mainlanguage[de]
\lefthyphenmin=2
\righthyphenmin=2
\starttext
\showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
\showhyphens{anderswo}
\showhyphens{anderswoher}
\stoptext
which gives:
languages > hyphenation > show: Zu[-||]sam[-||]men[-||]hang
languages > hyphenation > show: an[-||]ders[-||]wo
languages > hyphenation > show: an[-||]ders[-||]wo[-||]her
-- Max
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[NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Hi,
I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered
the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this
down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer:
\starttext
\language[de]
\showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
\showhyphens{anderswo}
\showhyphens{anderswoher}
\stoptext
This shows
languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang
languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo
languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her
Now with LaTeX and Babel:
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage[ngerman]{babel}
\begin{document}
\showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
\showhyphens{anderswo}
\showhyphens{anderswoher}
\end{document}
This shows
[] \TU/lmr/m/n/10 Zu-sam-men-hang
[] \TU/lmr/m/n/10 an-ders-wo
[] \TU/lmr/m/n/10 an-ders-wo-her
The LaTeX hyphenation points agree with the German Duden dictionary.
As none of the words use more than 7-bit ASCII, I think newer pattern
changes are not related.
Curiously, the same effect already appears with MKII and MKIV from
TeXLive 2014, the oldest I had around.
I'm also surprised 'anders-wo-her' gets hyphenated but 'anderswo' is
not hyphenated at all.
I could not reproduce a difference with English words so far.
Any ideas? As far as I understand, MKIV/LMTX should use the
de-hyph-1996 patterns which LuaLaTeX uses these days too, via
hyph-utf8.
Thanks,
--
Leah Neukirchenhttps://leahneukirchen.org/
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